More cost effective night vision (NV) setup

[GavStar]

Obviously the big barrier for night vision use in astronomy is the cost. The night vision monoculars that I purchased last year were around £6k.

However, I’ve just been informed that there is a good quality newly launched night vision tube called the Photonis Echo (my tube is also made by Photonis and is called 4g intens). My understanding is that the Echo has lower specifications and potentially more black spots on the tube but would still provide the major amount of the benefits of Night Vision. Some more details of the echo are here

https://www.actinblack.com/faq/image-intensifier-tubes/

I understand the current cost of a pvs-14 monocular with photonis echo is around £3.2k, so still pricey but for the cost of a few Ethos, maybe attractive to some on this forum?

You would also need to purchase an Ha filter, have or purchase a suitable long focal televue eyepiece and purchase the tnvc televue Night Vision adapter (see link) but these are a relatively minor cost in this context.

https://tnvc.com/shop/tele-vue-tnvc-night-vision-afocal-astronomy-adapter/

Hope this is useful to some.

[Paz]

Thanks for posting. This is still out of my league but hopefully over time there will be continued developments that bring NV within my reach.

[John]

Thanks for that info Gavin. At least the direction of travel of the cost is in the right direction

 

[alanjgreen]

These Echo tubes will only be cost effective if they get good results. Please be sure to get spec sheets and verify low EBI and high SNR before purchasing these echo tubes to avoid disappointment. Yes you save 3k but you spend 3k less for "less".

These echo and echo+ tubes are the ones that failed to meet the Intens minimum specifications in the factory. They get rebadged and sold for reduced price.

It's could be like not buying a tak but buying a skywatcher instead. It may be fine but at least know and compare all the specs to the Intens before you rush in.

I have posted two Intens specs in various posts and can provide three by PM should you want to compare with an echo.

Always ask for spec sheets and do some research before rushing in.

Alan

[GavStar]

It’s nice (and fun ?) to compare spec sheets for night vision tubes. However the minimum specs for the Echo of 57 LP/mm and S/N of 24 will give very nice views and show the horsehead etc with the right filters and aperture scopes. 

Also good to try to get a tube with an ebi or less than 0.1 (on the photonis scale).

The views may not be quite as nice as the Photonis 4g, maybe a bit more noise, less contrast, possibly some black spots (which won’t impact on the enjoyment) but still able to capture the excitement of seeing stuff that’s extremely difficult using standard glass eyepieces.

[alanjgreen]

My tube has an EBI of 0.04 on the Photonis scale.

or do you mean less than 0.01?

= not sure what your point you are trying to make about EBI unless you are just confirming my point that you need to check and compare specs carefully !

My point was that's its great to get an echo but at least know what you are getting. You could easily end up with "a random" echo tube but if you have any sense you will make sure you have fun and get the best that's available   and I am happy to help anybody that's would like my help.

[Highburymark]

8 hours ago, GavStar said:

Obviously the big barrier for night vision use in astronomy is the cost. The night vision monoculars that I purchased last year were around £6k.

However, I’ve just been informed that there is a good quality newly launched night vision tube called the Photonis Echo (my tube is also made by Photonis and is called 4g intens). My understanding is that the Echo has lower specifications and potentially more black spots on the tube but would still provide the major amount of the benefits of Night Vision. Some more details of the echo are here

https://www.actinblack.com/faq/image-intensifier-tubes/

I understand the current cost of a pvs-14 monocular with photonis echo is around £3.2k, so still pricey but for the cost of a few Ethos, maybe attractive to some on this forum?

You would also need to purchase an Ha filter, have or purchase a suitable long focal televue eyepiece and purchase the tnvc televue Night Vision adapter (see link) but these are a relatively minor cost in this context.

https://tnvc.com/shop/tele-vue-tnvc-night-vision-afocal-astronomy-adapter/

Hope this is useful to some.

Thanks very much for posting Gavin - very interesting indeed. 

[Stu]

Interesting stuff Gavin. As the one who pioneered this in the UK, found out all the information about how to put together a system, what to look for and how to get the best out of it by using fast systems, then shared it for other(s) to benefit from I’m sure most people are very grateful to you for continuing to update us on the latest developments.

I guess this is, in a way, similar to the Daystar Quark in that it is a lower spec core product being made available at a lower price. The Quark opened up Ha observing to a much wider group of people which was fantastic, but it did have some downsides with poorer performing units. If you go into this with your eyes open (and let’s face it, even an NV unit can’t help you if you keep them closed, boom boom ) then a carefully chosen Echo unit sounds like a very interesting way to get into this.

It’s still a busting lot of cash, but beginning to be in a range where more people might consider it.

[Highburymark]

4 hours ago, Stu said:

 

I guess this is, in a way, similar to the Daystar Quark in that it is a lower spec core product being made available at a lower price. The Quark opened up Ha observing to a much wider group of people which was fantastic, but it did have some downsides with poorer performing units. 

My thoughts exactly Stu when I read about this. Hopefully the quality of these new tubes will vary far less than that of early Quarks - the fact that they (Act in Black) publish minimum specs is encouraging. 

[GavStar]

38 minutes ago, Highburymark said:

My thoughts exactly Stu when I read about this. Hopefully the quality of these new tubes will vary far less than that of early Quarks - the fact that they (Act in Black) publish minimum specs is encouraging. 

Mark, if you (or anyone) is considering purchasing one of these, Reimer at actinblack.com is the person to ask for guidance.

Of course, Alan, I and PeterW are also happy to answer any specific questions anyone may have on a specific NV tube (and we may well have different opinions on which specs are the most important ?- tubes don’t often have excellent specs across the board so there’s generally some compromise needed. In practice, as Reimer has told me, it’s easy to get hung up on slight differences in individual specs which won’t be seen at the eyepiece). Also in some circumstances Reimer requests not to share individual spec sheets but we can give indications based some key items.

But photonis make good quality tubes so I would expect at least one of those available from actinblack to be suitable for astronomy. It’s also nice that it’s possible to pick and choose one based on specs (unlike the Quark where I don’t think you know the quality of the specific one you receive?)

[Stu]

22 minutes ago, GavStar said:

It’s also nice that it’s possible to pick and choose one based on specs (unlike the Quark where I don’t think you know the quality of the specific one you receive?)

I think that was the problem, there was too broad a range of acceptable tolerance with the Quarks and for people who had never viewed in Ha before there was a risk that they would just be disappointed without knowing why.

Hopefully actinblack can avoid these issues with their approach.

[GavStar]

15 hours ago, alanjgreen said:

My tube has an EBI of 0.04 on the Photonis scale.

or do you mean less than 0.01?

= not sure what your point you are trying to make about EBI unless you are just confirming my point that you need to check and compare specs carefully !

My point was that's its great to get an echo but at least know what you are getting. You could easily end up with "a random" echo tube but if you have any sense you will make sure you have fun and get the best that's available   and I am happy to help anybody that's would like my help.

From discussions with actinblack, the S/n, LP/mm and ebi should be fine with the echo (ebi is generally less than 0.1 with the photonis tubes it seems). However imo the key metric to look for is the luminance gain to aim to get it as close to the photonis 4g as possible (ie Over 10000).

If the gain is materially lower, then less strong filters may be needed eg 12nm ha filter rather than 6nm to avoid photon starvation...

[Highburymark]

7 hours ago, GavStar said:

Mark, if you (or anyone) is considering purchasing one of these, Reimer at actinblack.com is the person to ask for guidance.

Of course, Alan, I and PeterW are also happy to answer any specific questions anyone may have on a specific NV tube (and we may well have different opinions on which specs are the most important ?- tubes don’t often have excellent specs across the board so there’s generally some compromise needed. In practice, as Reimer has told me, it’s easy to get hung up on slight differences in individual specs which won’t be seen at the eyepiece). Also in some circumstances Reimer requests not to share individual spec sheets but we can give indications based some key items.

But photonis make good quality tubes so I would expect at least one of those available from actinblack to be suitable for astronomy. It’s also nice that it’s possible to pick and choose one based on specs (unlike the Quark where I don’t think you know the quality of the specific one you receive?)

Thanks Gavin - this cheaper entry into night vision does change the game as far as I'm concerned. Going to do some more research and no doubt ask you a few more questions, but just got a nice bonus at work so could move ahead IF I can establish that the quality would be good enough.

[PeterW]

Have to check if the Echo is just a low grade Intens or if it uses the older “gen2l” tech that Photonis made until the Intens pushed well into Gen3 land? You can always pick up second hand Gen3 for around the same cost from hunters moving to video and thermal. You don’t get a spec sheet and so you don’t have to suffer the stress of spec sheet anxiety that seems to plague people! ?? 

Yeah the view will be all green and grainy, but I’ve still seen a fair few things with it and it sure makes walkers in the dark more fun.

PEter

[GavStar]

11 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Have to check if the Echo is just a low grade Intens or if it uses the older “gen2l” tech that Photonis made until the Intens pushed well into Gen3 land? 

PEter

Hi Peter, yes these are confirmed to be tubes made with the same production as Photonis 4g intens but that didn’t make the high 4g ratings. There are two grades Echo and a higher grade more expensive Echo+ (min fom 1800). I think if Actinblack can source one that has a decent luminance gain (the key attribute where gen 2 struggles relative to gen 3 imo) then I think they would be great fun for astro and give the majority of the ‘night vision’ visual leap that I get with my 4g tube.

[PeterW]

Definitely sounds promising. Be interesting to see how “poor” they are in comparison to a high spec one.

Peter

[Highburymark]

As an update to this thread, I think the Echo tubes are more expensive than initially thought. Certainly if you want an Echo+ (minimum FOM of 1800), you're looking at about £5.2k with a PVS14 monocular. I think the basic Echo tube is about £1k less - going from a UK stockist - but that only has a minimum 1500 FOM. So yes, a slightly cheaper entry level, but ebi isn't specified, and you'll have more spots and distortion than a full 4G. For £800 more than the Echo+, you can have a Photonis 4G or Harder Digital Gen 3 tube - the latter with an FOM of 2100.

[PeterW]

Thanks for finding out, looks like the pot luck secondhand maybe the only way to get lower price.

PEterW

[GavStar]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

Thanks for finding out, looks like the pot luck secondhand maybe the only way to get lower price.

PEterW

I still think the standard Echo tubes (even with the lower minimum fom of 1500) would give nice views. There is quite a jump in price from the echo to echo+ tubes - actinblack did quote me the £3.2k price for a pvs-14 with standard echo..

[Highburymark]

5 hours ago, GavStar said:

I still think the standard Echo tubes (even with the lower minimum fom of 1500) would give nice views. There is quite a jump in price from the echo to echo+ tubes - actinblack did quote me the £3.2k price for a pvs-14 with standard echo..

Ok - that is a significant difference Gavin. Better than I thought going on the UK stockist's price for the tubes on their own.