The Skywatcher Evostar ED150 DS Pro Is Here !

[Dave1]

Great reports John, even though both ED150 Pro have had problems. Hopefully you will receive a sorted ED150 Pro soon. I look forward to reading the report.

[gorann]

58 minutes ago, Tim said:

Perhaps  not so much a secret as  much as irrelevant to most purchasers? I also have no idea what type of glass is used in my Televue eyepieces, but I know that they work well

But would not Televue tell you if you asked? I have got used to be informed by the manufacturers about what I was buying, patricularly when it came to telescopes. I always found that they were very open about things like glass composition.

 Best case scenario is that SW found a superior glass mix and will not tell the competitors. Worst case is that there are known weaknesses with the glass.

Edited August 8, 2018 by gorann

[Alan White]

34 minutes ago, John said:

Fair point Shane. We probably need winter and summer tests. Either that or I need to get a very capacious fridge !

 

Go Fund Me page for a big ED150 sized fridge perhaps?
or do we just wait a couple of month when our normal Autumnal / Winter weather returns?
 

[John]

37 minutes ago, DRT said:

Without wanting to cast doubt on the work of Es Reid and others like him, I do think this is a very real problem.

If FLO send an ordered scope to Es to have the alignment checked, and perhaps tweaked to make it perfect,  that scope then goes back in a box and potentially gets chucked around a few vans and warehouses before reaching the customer. Even if handled carefully (in courier terminology) I doubt very much that everything will be as it was when it left Es Reid's hands by the time it arrives at the customer's address, particularly if the lens is held in a relatively inexpensive cell.

I think if I wanted to pay for someone like Es to optimise the alignment of some expensive optics I would then want to be in complete control of the onward transport to wherever I wanted the scope to live. DHL, DPD and their kin are very efficient at getting big boxes from A to B quickly, but they do not do it with kid gloves ?

This begs some questions

- At what point is an optical instrument of sufficient bulk, delicacy and sensitivity that it requires bespoke transport arrangements ?

- Are there packaging methods which can provide better insulation from the rigours of transit  for such instruments ?

- Both the above are bound to impact the end cost for the consumer I reckon but maybe a price worth paying ?

 

 

[Ben the Ignorant]

45 minutes ago, DRT said:

Even if handled carefully (in courier terminology) I doubt very much that everything will be as it was when it left Es Reid's hands by the time it arrives at the customer's address

That's why people have to learn to center their doublet themselves.

Set all the screws at the same depth on one lens.

Orient the scope so two screws from the other lens are at the bottom and loosen the other screw(s).

Use those two screws like a spring-loaded finder's screws, the weight of the lens will act as the spring force.

Tighten top screw(s) gently.

That's it.

[John]

31 minutes ago, gorann said:

 I have got used to be informed by the manufacturers about what I was buying, patricularly when it came to telescopes. I always found that they were very open about things like glass composition.

 

Tele Vue don't reveal it glass type used. Vixen didn't use to either. They do now.

The glass type used only tells a small part of the story anyway. Figuring, polishing, coating and mounting are at least as important to overall performance, possibly more. The issues I have had would have still been there if I'd known the glass type used.

 

[John]

1 minute ago, Ben the Ignorant said:

That's why people have to learn to center their doublet themselves.

Set all the screws at the same depth on one lens.

Orient the scope so two screws from the other lens are at the bottom and loosen the other screw(s).

Use those two screws like a spring-loaded finder's screws, the weight of the lens will act as the spring force.

Tighten top screw(s) gently.

That's it.

There goes your warranty I reckon.

[Alan White]

I am not sure on the answers to your very valid points John,
but all scopes I have owned to date came in simple cardboard outers and foam or polystyrene packers and bubble wrap.
All survived the slow boat from the Pacific Rim areas.

[Ben the Ignorant]

1 minute ago, John said:

There goes your warranty I reckon.

Do you lose warranty when you collimate a newtonian or a Schmidt-Cass? How does collimation endanger the scope?

[Mr Spock]

Such a shame. A scope like this was always destined to be popular. Now it looks like one to avoid (for now).

Hopefully these QC issues will be resolved and we will have the scope we are all hoping for.

[JonC]

9 minutes ago, John said:

This begs some questions

- At what point is an optical instrument of sufficient bulk, delicacy and sensitivity that it requires bespoke transport arrangements ?

- Are there packaging methods which can provide better insulation from the rigours of transit  for such instruments ?

- Both the above are bound to impact the end cost for the consumer I reckon but maybe a price worth paying ?

 

 

Shipping wise the China to EU/UK bit is probably in a large shipment in a sea freight container, so would be pretty safe. Damage is most likely once the shipment is unpacked and sent to retailers and customers. I build and test gas analysers and we mainly ship them to the far east, packaging is 1m drop tested with a 25kg analyser in it, analyser is then inspected and tested. The packing is a cardboard box containing custom cut foam, think its at least 10cm on all sides. 

[sloz1664]

10 hours ago, John said:

From reports elsewhere, it appears that Synta (who of course make the scope) had a problem with the 1st batch of glass used for the objective and had to scrap the lot and start again. The release of the scope was delayed but this could well have put pressure on other parts of the manufacturing chain perhaps ?

We must also remember that Skywatcher are far from alone in experiencing problems of this nature with a new design. Many brands including some very prestigious names, have experienced such issues. Lets hope that the very substantial organisation behind the ED150 can quickly iron out the problems and allow the design to shine, as it deserves to

I'm sorry John I disagree with the "experiencing problems of this nature with a new design" As a new product, it should never leave the factory without ALL processes in place albeit material sourcing, manufacture, and logistics. Design, development, process capabilities, and a full quality procedure has to be in place before the product can proceed to manufacture. In a creditable company the finalised project has to signed off by the Technical & Managing Director before the first product can be shipped As a Chartered Engineer for over 30 years it galls me that the customer is now the a non paid member of the Project Test and Quality team.

Steve

[John]

 

4 minutes ago, sloz1664 said:

I'm sorry John I disagree with the "experiencing problems of this nature with a new design" As a new product, it should never leave the factory without ALL processes in place albeit material sourcing, manufacture, and logistics. Design, development, process capabilities, and a full quality procedure has to be in place before the product can proceed to manufacture. In a creditable company the finalised project has to signed off by the Technical & Managing Director before the first product can be shipped As a Chartered Engineer for over 30 years it galls me that the customer is now the a non paid member of the Project Test and Quality team.

Steve

I can't disagree with any of this Steve, in theory, but my point remains valid that Skywatcher are not alone in this, by any means, in practice. 

[John]

32 minutes ago, Ben the Ignorant said:

Do you lose warranty when you collimate a newtonian or a Schmidt-Cass? How does collimation endanger the scope?

Why not have a look through some of the warranties around the world (they vary from country to country) and see what they say ?

 

[Peter Drew]

39 minutes ago, Ben the Ignorant said:

Do you lose warranty when you collimate a newtonian or a Schmidt-Cass? How does collimation endanger the scope?

Interesting one. The manufacturer provides user adjustment facilities which suggests that they endorse their use but what happens if the telescope is damaged by, say, a secondary falling off on to a primary or chipping the edge of a refractor doublet or triplet whilst attempting recentering? Would the warranty cover this?.

[DRT]

36 minutes ago, sloz1664 said:

I'm sorry John I disagree with the "experiencing problems of this nature with a new design" As a new product, it should never leave the factory without ALL processes in place albeit material sourcing, manufacture, and logistics. Design, development, process capabilities, and a full quality procedure has to be in place before the product can proceed to manufacture. In a creditable company the finalised project has to signed off by the Technical & Managing Director before the first product can be shipped As a Chartered Engineer for over 30 years it galls me that the customer is now the a non paid member of the Project Test and Quality team.

Steve

This is my greatest irritation with this type of problem, and why I am not inclined to support the "send it to Es Reid" solution. These scopes cost a lot of money. Not as much as some others, but still a lot of money. They should leave the factory fit for purpose and should not require a retailer or a third party or the customer to check and correct things that should just work as designed.

The next time you buy a Hoover, would you be prepared to send it to and pay Mr Dyson (or anyone else) to check that it was working to specification? ?

[Stub Mandrel]

6 minutes ago, Peter Drew said:

Interesting one. The manufacturer provides user adjustment facilities which suggests that they endorse their use but what happens if the telescope is damaged by, say, a secondary falling off on to a primary or chipping the edge of a refractor doublet or triplet whilst attempting recentering? Would the warranty cover this?.

It would depend on whether or not the user manual says that the collimation is user adjustable. But a newt and the manual explains how to collimate it, what does the Ed150 manual say?

There are plenty of things you can adjust on a new car, but I suspect that while adjusting tyre pressure is OK, fiddling with cam belt tension could invalidate the warranty...

[John]

14 minutes ago, Peter Drew said:

Interesting one. The manufacturer provides user adjustment facilities which suggests that they endorse their use but what happens if the telescope is damaged by, say, a secondary falling off on to a primary or chipping the edge of a refractor doublet or triplet whilst attempting recentering? Would the warranty cover this?.

I'm sure there are all sorts of interesting issues that can be discussed under the heading of warranties however I do wonder if a separate thread on that topic might be a better idea ?

The ED150(s) did not come with an instruction manual or any documentation apart from a small label hanging off the focuser warning me not to look at the sun with the scope, in 6 languages.

 

[Stub Mandrel]

4 minutes ago, John said:

The ED150(s) did not come with an instruction manual or any documentation apart from a small label hanging off the focuser warning me not to look at the sun with the scope, in 6 languages.

But not braille?

[Ben the Ignorant]

3 hours ago, John said:

Why not have a look through some of the warranties around the world (they vary from country to country) and see what they say ?

It was a rhetorical question. Collimating a scope is like setting up a guitar, if the warranty says a setup voids the warranty, the maker should

- either change the terms of the warranty

- or sell guitars with a perfect and permanent setup

Amazingly, I once heard a customer complain that his just-bought expensive guitar had fret buzz. The clerk answered the guitar would go to the luthier's shop, at extra charge, of course.

The buyer answered back "Doesn't it come from a luthier's hands already?"

I set up my guitars and my telescopes myself. Whew! What a relief!

Edited August 8, 2018 by Ben the Ignorant

[Ben the Ignorant]

22 minutes ago, Peter Drew said:

Interesting one. The manufacturer provides user adjustment facilities which suggests that they endorse their use but what happens if the telescope is damaged by, say, a secondary falling off on to a primary or chipping the edge of a refractor doublet or triplet whilst attempting recentering? Would the warranty cover this?.

Warranties don't cover misuse, and that's how it should be. Vortex binoculars are an exception, they repair the thing no matter what the cause, but their price has to be raised to include that insurance.

[John]

I think I'll stick to reporting what I've found with these scopes. I'm not trying to sell them, justify their existence, defend their warranties or examine the motives of their manufacturer.

As Sgt Joe Friday says in "Dragnet" - "Just the facts ma'am"

Note: actually the original Joe Friday never said this but in the parodies by Stan Freberg it was attributed to him. 

[paulastro]

24 minutes ago, DRT said:

This is my greatest irritation with this type of problem, and why I am not inclined to support the "send it to Es Reid" solution. These scopes cost a lot of money. Not as much as some others, but still a lot of money. They should leave the factory fit for purpose and should not require a retailer or a third party or the customer to check and correct things that should just work as designed.

The next time you buy a Hoover, would you be prepared to send it to and pay Mr Dyson (or anyone else) to check that it was working to specification? ?

 

24 minutes ago, John said:

I'm sure there are all sorts of interesting issues that can be discussed under the heading of warranties however I do wonder if a separate thread on that topic might be a better idea ?

The ED150(s) did not come with an instruction manual or any documentation apart from a small label hanging off the focuser warning me not to look at the sun with the scope, in 6 languages.

 

In Welsh?

[DRT]

8 minutes ago, paulastro said:

In Welsh?

Are Es Reid, Edgar Hoover and James Dyson all Welsh?

Who knew! 

Edited August 8, 2018 by DRT

[paulastro]

Don't know about the people you mention, but in some parts of Wales I believe they speak Welsh all the time, and quite right too!