AstronomyNow rankle

[Keith Cooper]

Keith

I say a 'bad call', because the adverse reaction that you expected (your words) has indeed occurred. Albeit the extent of this reaction has perhaps exceeded your expectations. Never the less, an adverse reaction you clearly expected.

I do not profess to understand the complexities of being a magazine editor, but as a layman, I think that a common sense discussion with the author, prior to publication, and not censorship, was all that was required here.

Astronomy Now, is a quality magazine, that I have enjoyed reading for many years, and not a 'soap box' for delivering denigrating comments towards astro imagers, or any other discipline within the hobby.

Yes, I did say hobby, because for the vast majority of us, that's exactly what it is.

I spent the last 20 years of my working life, in Research & Development, and now in retirement, I no longer have any desire to undertake 'ground breaking' studies, but just to enjoy my astronomy and CCD imaging.

Its always been a pleasure to read AN Keith, please keep it that way.

Regards

Dave

Hi Dave,

In truth, I thought there may be some comments from people disagreeing with what Neil had to say, but the intent was never to cause offence, and that is what I based my expectations on. I feel Neil has been misunderstood somewhat and it has all been blown out of proportion; however, I do sincerely apologise if offence has been taken, rightly or wrongly. Neil never set out to denigrate anybody, and I hope you will trust me when I say that.

I know Neil is happy to discuss his column with anybody in person, and if the moderators have no objection, he is willing come on here to address some of the points that have been brought up.

And thank you for your support for the magazine, it is appreciated. Our readers are our lifeblood – without you there would be no magazine. I'd like AN to be a forum for everyone to express what it is they enjoy about astronomy, and I look forward to being able to build a better relationship with SGL in the future.

Kind regards,

Keith

[thing]

AN is the only mag I subscribe to for what it's worth, I reckon you're the best of the bunch and as I said in an earlier post, I may disagree with what Neil said this month but I might totally agree with him next month. It's not worth loosing sleep over TBH.

[CELESCOPE]

Thanks for that Keith, i have,nt said much on this thread, i remain fairly quiet, i also take other ppls comments with a pince of salt , but can see its maybe upset a few ppl , by all means by me anyway if Neil wants to come on here ,he is most welcome. like many others i enjoy my subscription To AN , always look foward to it.

And its nice to see An on here being part of SGL.

Best wishes

Rog

[lunator]

I finally managed to pick a copy of AN up and read the article. It was an interesting point of view.

I am not an imager and I do most of my work via sketching - if that is what you can call putting several dots in a circle to represent double stars sketching and I feel I do add to Astromonical knowledge with my investigation of neglected doubles and computing of double star orbits.

I think Neil was just worried that the contribution of amateur astronomers to scientific discovery/knowledge is being lost in the pursuit of imaging and I have to agree with him up to a point. There are thousands of doubles and variables that could be investigated but I know that in the UK there is me and Bob Argyle, Tom Teague who do visual double star work.

I do agree with the sentiment that this our hobby and we should do what makes us happy

But I for one would be very happy if some of the imagers here thought it might be an imteresting challenge to combine the desire to take excellent images with the aim of contributing to our knowledge.

On reading the article a 2nd and 3rd time I think the key element is the use of the word 'real'.

I would have used the term 'scientific' observing.

Imaging and visual observing can be both be done for pure pleasure and with the specific aim of recording information at a moment in time that can be used by later generations to discover more information. Both are equally valid but I hope one does not 'crowd out' the other.

This is just my view

Cheers

Ian

[FLO]

also - does anyone get that feeling, at midnight, no sound, when you're on really high mag and the background is all black, you're focused on some distant object, you suddenly lose perspective and get quite freaked out by the cosmos and have to step away from the scope? is it just me?

err... time for you to cut down on the caffeine I think... :shock:

Don't you listen to him Phil, he's an imager, he'll never understand :lol:

I occasionally experience the same thing, usually when viewing clusters. You suddenly get a sense of the enormity and scale of the cosmos, it leaves me quite giddy and breathless. In truth, I like it and look forward to it happening again

Of course, it might just be that I am so wrapped up in the view that I forget to breath :shaking2:

[MrEd]

I think Neil was just worried that the contribution of amateur astronomers to scientific discovery/knowledge is being lost in the pursuit of imaging and I have to agree with him up to a point.

I do agree with the sentiment that this our hobby and we should do what makes us Happy

But I for one would be very happy if some of the imagers here thought it might be an interesting challenge to combine the desire to take excellent images with the aim of contributing to our knowledge.

On reading the article a 2nd and 3rd time I think the key element is the use of the word 'real'.

I would have used the term 'scientific' observing.

Very Well put Ian.

On A personal note i know Neil has ruffled a few feathers with his article

But i have met him a few times and he is genuinely one of the 'good guys'

as someone has already stated.

I can see both sides of the debate myself and some

parts of the article could have been phrased with slightly more diplomacy.

Ed Sampson

[Starman]

Personally, I think that even sketching is a bit too progressive and I'm contemplating carving my observations in stone tablets.

Seriously, just do what gives you pleasure. This is a hobby and as such ultimately you should go out and enjoy it. When I give talks on imaging I always state that I regard the majority of amateur astronomical images as art and not science - including my own. In science, it's raw data taken through calibrated equipment that's useful.

However, images of the same subject are very important and I'm surprised that someone who pushes scientific pursuit such as Neil would miss this point. Here's an example: http://www.seds.org/Messier/xtra/leos/gl.html

So even if the images were taken for pleasure, they still have scientific use and provide a time-line archive of each individual object.

Then there's the whole point of imaging the same object over and over again. Objects such as M42 are amateur test subjects, calibration objects if you like. They are like sand boxes where you can image and play, comparing your shots with other imagers and allowing you to refine your techniques. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this at all and IMO is something that should be encouraged. Digital imaging is an area which has revitalised astronomy in my view and something that has opened the subject up to everyone.

Perhaps Neil should ask himself this question. If you went on a holiday to the pyramids, would you refrain from taking a photo of them because so many had already been taken in the past?

On the whole, amateur imagers take shots of objects like M42 because they enjoy the majesty of the object, not because they intend to submit them for scientific analysis.

[gurney]

Personally I model all my observations out of lego bricks! You can get a great colour range!

[Jamie]

Personally I model all my observations out of lego bricks! You can get a great colour range!

I tried that but my images were all pixelated..... Go figure...

[centroid]

Hi Keith

Apologies for the delayed response, but I've only just caught up with this 'thread' again.

"Neil never set out to denigrate anybody, and I hope you will trust me when I say that."

Indeed I will Keith.

"I know Neil is happy to discuss his column with anybody in person, and if the moderators have no objection, he is willing come on here to address some of the points that have been brought up."

I respect Neil for offering to do this

"And thank you for your support for the magazine, it is appreciated."

My continuing to read AN, has never been in question Keith. As I said, I've enjoyed reading it for a long time, and see no reason for that to change.

"I look forward to being able to build a better relationship with SGL in the future."

I'm sure that I also speak for all of SGL's members and Admin, when I say that I too, look forward to that also.

Kind regards

Dave

[George]

"New observational ground" What on earth does that mean? Finding a new nebula or what? Bet we'd all like to do that but its not going to happen. Some people like looking, some of us would like to but the LP stops us, but some of us like to do imaging. Weird that, that we're all different. Who'd a thought it?

I reckon we should all do an M42 now, just as a wind up.

Kaptain Klevtsov

Well I think KK hit the nail on the head with LP being the limiting factor for visual, I had my first scope 18 years ago purely visual, I took a 14 year break and returned 2 years ago and boy was I disappointed with visual. LP in my area as all but wiped out visual observations its that bad. But I love the heavens and i turned thanks to SGL to imaging and I'm loving it.

So to Niel and others who are irritated by imagers......some astronomers don't have a choice but imaging

[Bruce MacDonald]

I've been a bit shocked by the personal nature of some of these attacks. I think Neil (who I have also met and agree with NickH, he's a good bloke) was bemoaning the perceived loss of scientific purpose in amateur astronomy in favour of making pretty pictures. He could have expressed himself better in the article (which I have read) but he did not deserve the opprobium he received here.

Amateur astronomy is changing; the old apprenticeship of making visual observations and sketches and training the eye to look for details is still there but being supplanted by imagers. Having seen what Nick has to do to make an image, it is clear that electronic observing and imaging is a whole new skill in itself.

I am pleased he has had a chance to clarify some of his arguments. Best of luck to him in recovery from his illness. (See other thread.)

[Stephen]

Hang on, epic thread revival - ignore

[Brent]

Hang on, epic thread revival - ignore

I enjoyed reading that - great find, thanks.

I didn't see the original article but OP's response blew me away