AstronomyNow rankle

[MartinB]

I think Neil is betraying a sentiment which is shared by a number of very experienced and senior amateur astronomies. It is also apparent in some of the writings of Martin Mobberley. There is a lot of great science going on in amateur astronomy and as Patrick Moore often points out, astronomy is probably unique as an area of science where the amateur can make a genuine contribution. The BAA has traditionally been a focal point for this activity particularly through it's various sections. The network of Astrosocs is well established.

All of a sudden up pops this new phenomenon, the internet, making accessible a huge range of resources and on it's heels the forums. They have a life of their own with no tradition to uphold. That other new phenomenon, digital imaging is rapidly seen for the wonder that it is. GOTO is embraced, goodness we'll be taking computers out with us next.

The new energy and drive that exists in the better forums will change the face of amateur astronomy and the traditionalists can't sit canute like and denigrate what they may feel is a very superficial, technology led exploration of astronomy.

Maybe it is time for sections within the BAA to engage astro forums in a more positive and proactive manner. Some time ago Dave Scanlon asked for our help in observing variable stars which was great (although I'm not sure much came of this). There are huge opportunities in actively engaging a forum such as SGL. It just needs the great and the good to join with us oiks.

Neil's attitudes hint at something a little less progressive.

The visual articles and sketches in AN were wonderful though!

[Paxo]

This will start some interesting debate Martin. I for one tend not to read Neil's articles following several misguided comments made in the past, but that's another story. I predominantly image these days but I have to admit I have boubt a 12" dob so that I can do some visual stuff while imaging (this is born out of boredom while sitting watching a monitor rather than a calling to go back to basics). I must admit having read the article it is a little misguided. I am sure the majority of M42's published this winter will have a specific significance for the author of the image.

I have been a member of this forum for about a year now and can say that there appears to be a fairly equal weighting between visual and imaging. One thing that does stand out though, and may possibly be the source of Neil's comments, is that there are probably more technical questions posted regarding 'how to' image, this just comes as par for the course though, some of the equipment/techniques does require a certain level of understanding, and people use forums like this one to obtain this information from people who have been there, done it and got the T shirt. However, for every techncal query on electronics, there will be a post from someone looking for recommendations for eyepieces.

At the end of the day, Neil is entitled to his opinion, it's just a shame it is published 'as fact'. I for one won't lose any sleep over it, and personally think that the advent of such technology and it's subsequent pricing to be in the reach of the c'common man' is systematically rejuvinating astronomy, which can only be a good thing.

Steve..

[beamish]

A suitably long thread this one already, but here's my 2p's worth, I agree with Martin and quite frankly don't give a rat's A*%e if he's sick of M42 or any other for that matter. Breaking new ground pah ! getting anything captured is for a lot of us breaking new ground on a personal basis- otherwise why don't we all sell up and just scour the tinternet for images ! I for one take a great deal of pride and enjoyment from the "chase" and capture of any astronomical subject !

Karlo

[GazOC]

Another factor is that imagers tend to have an "end product" to send in/ post at the end of most sessions whereas observers might write the odd report if something unusual or interesting happens but tend not to bother otherwise.

[DeanWatson]

As I said, I do it because I like making pretty pictures. I'm not trying to cure cancer or Green Weasel disease.

[Reggie]

Maybe he/they want to draw a line between them and us? I'll gladly defend my way of doing things for myself.

On the other hand if he wanted to bring about change in the amateur imaging circles that he so greatly despises how about a forum based imaging program of sorts that would be useful to him/the greater pro/scientific community.

Lets face it, they weren't backwards in coming forwards about GalaxyZoo, that got amateurs helping in ways the scientific community just couldn't do under its own steam through the sheer weight of numbers.

[Whippy]

Ah, leave the man to it. As someone has already pointed out, he's clearly out of touch and if he wants to stay an anachronism rather than move with times, then so be it. Fact is that is doesn't matter if 8000 M42's get posted this winter. It's their M42 and they've got every right to be chuffed with thier image. If Mr. Bone thinks there's no new ground being broken, he's quite wrong because it's new ground being broken personally which is just as important.

As much as I like imaging, I'm still an observer at heart but the lure of looking at something which is far beyond my scopes' capabilities is just something I couldn't ignore. I'm sure many of us feel exactly the same..

I'm sure most of us have light pollution in differing amounts and lead busy lives and if you feel star-hopping is your bag, more power to you. If you've got GOTO and want a quick tour around the skies to see the sheer variety of objects up there, go for it. If you spend your evenings taking images, grand. It's all vaild, it's all good. Fact is we're all doing something far worthier than sitting in front of the telly watching X-Factor or somesuch nonsense and that's something Mr. Bone shouldn't be so snotty about.

Tony..

[StarMan1701]

His gripe is - "When we get to the realms of this season's 8,000th identical image of the Orion Nebula however, is anyone really breaking new observational ground?"

When was the last time a 'visual observer' broke any new observational ground?

What can an observer see in M42 that hasn't been seen before?

Personally, I have no axe to grind as I enjoy both observing and imaging - and why shouldn't I? To belittle either discipline is completely pointless and shows a somewhat blinkered view of modern amateur astronomy. Perhaps AN might do well to consider employing writers who prefer to keep both eyes open...

Just my opinion.

Lee.

[thing]

You get the same attitude in any hobby though. I bought my first scope last November. It is a GOTO with all the bells and whistles. I don't feel any less of an astronomer because I can't find M1 within five seconds using an unguided scope (probably could actually), what it does do is let me spend more time at the eyepiece looking at stuff instead of searching for it.

There will always be Luddites, I say if technology makes things easier then embrace it. If you want to find NGC689936675 with an upturned beer bottle and draw a picture of it then fine, no one is stopping you, but don't criticise those of us who have moved on a bit. We all get out of it what we get out of it and as KK rightly points out we're all different. I really don't care what Neil Bone thinks, I'm sure he's a very knowledgable and decent guy, but his opinions don't even register.

[ngc2403]

this is nothing more than my 2 pence worth, but i agree with Martin,

that was a very narrow minded comment about this hobby.

i for one plan to keep very image i take and process because they all tell a story of the night i imaged them. I don't plan to throw away the older ones just because i have a better new one.

As for other uses of imaging equipment. i don't find a graph of the light curve of a star that interesting, or the taking hundreds of images of galaxies just to find a SN, or getting the magnitudes/temperatures of stars any more than a passing interest. i.e. once you have found the temperature of a star through spectroscopy it is of no interest to me to do it again the following night.

ally

[GazOC]

What can an observer see in M42 that hasn't been seen before?

Well the answer to that is "quite a lot" as he/ she picks up experience.....;O)

[StarMan1701]

What can an observer see in M42 that hasn't been seen before?

Well the answer to that is "quite a lot" as he/ she picks up experience.....;O)

You know what I mean... 8)

Lee.

[FLO]

Steve, psjshep, DeanWatson, StarMan1701, PaulG, Gaz O'C, Pip, barkis, thing, kev 102 42, David Galvin and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

You certainly appear to have started something Martin

[thing]

It's because none of us care what he thinks..........Neil Bone that is, not Martin

[psjshep]

I, for one, will never cease enjoying the excitement in seeing someones face who has captured M42 or M31 for the very first time - It happened @ Kelling this year - I managed to encourage a guy who has been totally visual up until that point, to aim his Orion Starshoot (I think) @ Andromeda, (found it too, which is no small task for the 1st time imaging!) and let out a very loud "YES!" when the image appeared on his ageing laptop - THAT is why I never tire of seeing the same old images time & time again - it's still the FIRST time for that person.

/soap box retired....

Phil.

[GazOC]

What can an observer see in M42 that hasn't been seen before?

Well the answer to that is "quite a lot" as he/ she picks up experience.....;O)

You know what I mean... 8)

Lee.

Yep, I was just kidding. I've seen M42 hundreds of times but it still blows my socks off, I doubt I'll ever get that jaded that these objects and the distances/ sizes involved fail to excite me.

[ringz]

Actually Starman1701 I think that you will find that a certain George Alcock discovered 5 novas and 5 comets visually through his binoculars while scanning the sky through his sitting room window :mrgreen:

--

Martyn

[GazOC]

Lets not let this get into a imagers vs observers thing, I think we're all pretty much in agreement over the original point so far.....

[Pip]

As a hobby I don't think anyone should criticise how you should enjoy it one way or another. All a matter of personal choice

Pip

[barkis]

Look at the vast amount of revenues businesses have gleaned from the sale of equipment allied to imaging. The means to image M42 or anything else for that matter, is well within reach of anyone now. And of course, not to mention the computers, software, and processing tools.

I would suggest M42, and many other objects have played a huge part in the economy of a great number of suppliers.

Just another angle on the subject.

Ron.

[mik]

Well my next major project, sorry first major project is going to involve sketching,observing,imaging reading books and any articles i can find to gain more knowledge on my chosen subject,sorry there will be no breaking ground reports neither will there be any images of M42 so MR Bone's need not worry.

Why because my project is going no further than the Moon because thats what i want to do so there.

Mick

[Viking]

I can imagine that formal visual research can become rather tedious and boring. Its similar to postgraduate research where you are trying to provide answers to someone else's agenda. Hours and hours pouring over the same thing looking for a breakthrough.

Forum members do observe, image and provide support to each other. The skills required are different but the imaging learning curve is huge. That's only the capture, then you have the processing, turning a sow's ear into something magical. The nice thing about SGL forum members is that those with all these skills are prepared to help and encourage others, on the forum, star parties, local meets and in some cases visits to their homes.

Nothing but friendly bunch persuing their hobby and in this case provide a united front........ Solidly behind Martin................ Except, why not sent a message to AN and cancel your subscriptions.

John

[MikeP]

Not long ago, there was an appeal "from the professional world" for amateur imagers to check their images to see if they had any that met specific time and location criteria. I don't remember what they were looking for, maybe a GRB or something, but the point is that there could have been important scientific information captured in one of our images.

Put that in your pipe Mr Bone.

Mike

[FLO]

I've met Neil and he's a smart and very nice guy...

I have also met Neil and agree, he is a nice guy and I do feel a bit uncomfortable at the flack he is getting in this thread. A good magazine article stirs the reader and raises a response, something Neil has succeeded in doing so credit to him for that. OK, he has gone a little too far on this occasion but I doubt he meant to offend

[NickH]

My sentiments exactly. Neil I doubt would want to offend anyone. He's passionate about visual observations, running the BAA meteor section, which relies very heavily on amateurs literally counting and recording events. There is a place for all forms of astronomy, from armchair, imaging, visual, radio...you name it, and this forum really does cater for everyone (as do other great forums around the globe)...I think, AN will warmly welcome people's feedback on images, but let's not get in to personal attacks.

Corporations - fair game..

Individuals - not really that fair.. (there are exceptions!)