Jump to content

AstronomyNow rankle

MartinB

By MartinB
in The Astro Lounge

Recommended Posts

MartinB

MartinB

Posted
Posted

I was very pleased to see this months issue dedicated to visual observing and sketching. Overall I felt it was very well done. However the Neil Bone's Observations column left me feeling more than a little irritated. He says that forum groups give the impression that visual astronomy is becoming a thing of the past, that a lot of internet chat revolves around the best systems for capturing and processing digital images, preferably using a GOTO directed auto-guided telescope with a minimum of human operator involvement. He states there is a distinction between some forms of imaging and "real" observing. He specifically excludes Damian Peach, Nik Szymanek and Greg Parker from any implied denigration. Also he feels imaging for the purposes of asteroid astrometry, photometry of variable stars, deep sky images of comets and other tranisient phenomena is worthy stuff.

His gripe is - "When we get to the realms of this season's 8,000th identical image of the Orion Nebula however, is anyone really breaking new observational ground?"

He worries that newcomers will feel they have to plunge straight down the electronic imaging route and goes on to state, "Many in the imaging fraternity will turn their noses up at the idea of using the Mark 1 eyeball, pencil and paper to record observations."

Am I the only one who finds these comments both patronising and ignorant.

Well Neil, when I joined SGL just under 3 years ago I new nothing about star gazing, imaging, double stars, variables, emission nebulae or the rest. SGL had less than 200 members and there was an even balance between observing and imaging. SGL has taken me through an accelerated learning course - thanks Rus, Gaz, Roger, Greg, Daz and many more who guided me through those early days and beyond explaining types of scope, use of guide scopes and RDFs, setting circles, advice on suitable things to look at and how to find them. I was given links to great internet resources to help with collimation, and a range of other tricky subjects. In addition I was actively encouraged to join the local astrosoc.

Like many others I was drawn to the magic of long exposure photography and how it could bring to life the faint fuzzies but the appeal of observing has never gone away. The reason Neil is because, like everyone else on here (well nearly everyone) I am not stupid, I am a sentient independent human being able to decide things for myself.

Since I have joined around 2300 others have done the same, a majority as raw novices. Many have tapped into same rich vein of forum support that I found so helpful and have also felt bitten by the imaging bug. Sorry Neil but that's how it is.

Yes there will be a lot of images posted of M42 this winter and no doubt in the spring we will have a good number of M51s (Martin Mobberley describes the internet as being "flooded" with images of M51). Just to inform you, Neil Bone doesn't think much of your efforts because you aren't breaking new observational ground. There you are, 6 months ago you thought you would try looking through a scope, now you are taking long exposure astroimages and are being criticised for not being observationally innovative. GOOD GRIEF. Everyone has to start somewhere Neil!!

Over the course of 2 years novices will take a few images of M42 in doing so they will learn about the massive differences in brightness between the star forming trapezium and the outer regions. They will come to under stand the interaction between emission, dark and reflection nebulae, they will learn how extensive is the area of background nebulosity and some will seek to tease out those elusive doubles within the trapezium. The hunt of the E star is on. That's not a bad observational learning curve for a novice.

I have never, ever heard a dedicated imager on this forum turn his nose up at visual observers and sketchers Quite the opposite, most of us have a deep respect for the observing skills of experienced observers and marvel at the sketches they are able to produce. Supanova and comet hunters, double star splitters, variable star observers and star hopping gurus are all welcome here with open arms.

What I have no time for is hair shirt luddites, commenting on what they don't understand or know. The reality is that the internet is creating an explosion of interest in amateur astronomy. This will increase participants in all disciplines. If it is weighted towards imaging, and if all the imaging is of M42 well that's just hard luck Neil

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Replies 138
  • Created
  • Last Reply
Ben Ritchie

Ben Ritchie

Posted
Posted
Am I the only one who finds these comments both patronising and ignorant.

Most certainly not. Great communities have grown up at places like SGL, CN, UKAI et al., and I always like the help and encouragement given out to beginners and journeymen alike (having been on the receiving end of much of it myself). Who cares if it's the thirty-first M42 of the season, it means a lot to the person posting it.

FWIW, you get the same pompous twaddle from some quarters if you're a visual Astronomer who dares use a Nagler and/or Apochromatic refractor, because real observers use a Huygens eyepiece and f/20 achromat hand-ground from a beer bottle. I try and ignore it all these days, but sometimes it deserves a rant :undecided:

Link to comment
Share on other sites
russ

russ

Posted
Posted

I too read that article this morning and it irritated me a little bit but not for the imaging reasons, although i fully appreciate how everyone feels. I just feel that Neil hasn't got his finger on the pulse with the state of amateur astronomy today. I would say he is 12-18 months out of date. Certainly over the last 12 months visual has seen a resurgence in popularity.

The availability of good, high quality 300mm + dobsonians has seen a slight shift back towards visual astronomy and good old star hopping. Whether it be this forum, Cloudynights, Astrochat, all are a buzz with the talk of 12-16" dobsonians and what people have seen.

I can see where he is coming from in one respect. And from my own point of view, from when i imaged, i felt i was wasting precious clear nights staring at a laptop screen and not seeing the night sky. But i loved it while i was doing it, despite that niggle of not getting the most out of a clear night.

It's only a hobby at the end of the day and everyone has to enjoy in the way that suits them best and they feel happiest.

Regards

Russ

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Kaptain Klevtsov

Kaptain Klevtsov

Posted
Posted

"New observational ground" :) What on earth does that mean? Finding a new nebula or what? Bet we'd all like to do that but its not going to happen. Some people like looking, some of us would like to but the LP stops us, but some of us like to do imaging. Weird that, that we're all different. Who'd a thought it?

I reckon we should all do an M42 now, just as a wind up. :undecided:

Kaptain Klevtsov

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Greg

Greg

Posted
Posted

I totally agree with you Martin, I think you should send this to AN as a response.

Although i'm not an imager I do like to take pictures of the night sky and take my hat off to the dedicated imagers on here and stand in awe at the results.

Am I the only one who finds these comments both patronising and ignorant.

No Martin..

I like to dabble with a little planetary imaging...Could you imagine how down heartened i'd feel if after i'd posted, what I thought to be a cracking Saturn image to be told by you guys..."Yea, yea ..Not bad but we've seen 25 of those this week already.."

Not funny..

Does he not realise that without the imagers in the hobby we wouldn't be able to see the wonders of the sky in such detail from Earth..??

Link to comment
Share on other sites
philipok

philipok

Posted
Posted

In the interests of debate, I'll defend the man and play devil's advocate :undecided: . I think his column is intended to provoke some to and fro, and I wouldn't take it too much to heart. I believe his point was to that many people spend so much time getting obsessive about the gear, that they lose sight of the basic appreciation of the night sky, or rather forget how to see it. I have done this myself, primarily by buying a wedge, imager and loads of filters before really getting to know my new scope. I have enjoyed just going through the AN sky tour each month and seeing what I can see (and sketching).

Astronomy does appeal to a certain part of the male psyche - gear heavy, jargon-rich and filled with levels of precision that I haven't even begun to explore.. so maybe he was urging us to go back to basics before getting too involved in guiding on a dim star at 3am...

philip

Link to comment
Share on other sites
DeanWatson

DeanWatson

Posted
Posted

I quite agree. I'm a fairly serious (! i'll come to that in a minute!) imager myself. Now to the 'serious'. Why do we all do this rewarding, sometimes frustrating but always wonderful hobby of ours?

Because its a a hobby! Next to none of us will make a world shaking discovery. Probably not discover an Earth Approach Asteroid. See a supernova for the first time. Why? Because we do it for fun. I have the greatest respect for others with research progammes of their own or whatever and good luck to them. But I do what I do because I like it and it suits the level of astronomy I enjoy operating at.

I do astrophotography for precisely that reason. Not to necessarily learn anything. Not to discover anything. I do it because I like making pretty pictures and I'm damned if some elitist astro snob will make me feel guilty for it. Others like to measure variable stars. Some like To sit in a chair and just READ about astronomy. Do I care what they do? Does it make any difference to me? No, it certainly doesn't, I just like knowing that there are others who get something out of this wonderful and rewarding hobby of ours.

Far, far too much elitism in some areas of our hobby with some people. Its a wonder some times that more beginners aren't put off by it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
MartinB

MartinB

Posted
  • Author
Posted

In the interests of debate, I'll defend the man and play devil's advocate :undecided: . I think his column is intended to provoke some to and fro, and I wouldn't take it too much to heart. I believe his point was to that many people spend so much time getting obsessive about the gear, that they lose sight of the basic appreciation of the night sky, or rather forget how to see it. I have done this myself, primarily by buying a wedge, imager and loads of filters before really getting to know my new scope. I have enjoyed just going through the AN sky tour each month and seeing what I can see (and sketching).

Astronomy does appeal to a certain part of the male psyche - gear heavy, jargon-rich and filled with levels of precision that I haven't even begun to explore.. so maybe he was urging us to go back to basics before getting too involved in guiding on a dim star at 3am...

philip

That's not playing Devils advocate Philip, that's a reality check and well expressed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
DeanWatson

DeanWatson

Posted
Posted

Owning gear is fun. Taking photos is fun. I don't think less of people who have less or none. I don't think less of people who don't photograph. I don't give any of that 'my astronomy is better than yours' rubbish a second thought. I do what I do because I like it.

I think you would struggle to find any astronomer who said or thought any different. (other than relating to our own individual tastes of course!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
narrowbandpaul

narrowbandpaul

Posted
Posted

absolutely fantastic MartinB..well done. No other word to describe, superb.

Is he forgetting that a lot of important discoveries in the field of astronomy have come through images...glaxies outside our own milky way, distant supernovae for probing universal expansion?

Although I'm an imager myself, I can certainly see the fun in visual observing...much less setup time and theres something quite nice about seeing an object for your self.

And is like dean watson says..if it suits your level of astronomy, fine. Some like to have a casual glance at objects, some but 40" dobs, and some have paramounts in observatories. It depends on what you want to do, not what some jumped up, pompous, arrogant, ingorant know-it-all twit wants you to do.

Me I like Narrowband, others RGB, others spectroscopy, others read books. And thats fine, astronomy needs people with diverse interests...not anoraks

So ignore Neil Bone...

Paul

Link to comment
Share on other sites
SteveL

SteveL

Posted
Posted

Am I the only one who finds these comments both patronising and ignorant.

No, you are not alone. I`m am unsure if his comment was meant to create a stir or not, but to me I find it an incredibly narrowminded comment to make.

I started as an observer all that time ago, but it didnt take long for me to realise that the techie in me found it far more interesting and enjoyable to be taking images. Its a choice that I made by myself, driven by my own requirement to be better than I was before. Its a huge learning curve, but I am really happy that I made that choice and that I have learned plenty about astronomy along the way. The choice of looking through a telescope or imaging through a telescope is no contest for me... imaging always wins (although I have recently purchased a second system, so I have the option of doing some visual work while I am imaging)

I`m ever so sorry if my images are not any different to anyone elses Mr Bone, but you might find it surprising that I dont take these images for you or anyone else. I take them for me, and only me, and then share them on the various forums on the internet, or show prints to friends and relatives when they visit. If people like them, fine. If people dont like them, fine. If people totally ignore them because its the 8000th image of M42, fine. What I will not stand for is anyone talking them down, not because they are Rubbish or rubbish, but because they are images.... my images that I took, using equipment that I purchased, using techniques that I have learned the hard way. And next year, I am pretty sure I`ll take more images of the targets I have taken this year, if only to push MYSELF further, to use the new techniques and ideas I have collected between now and then.

And whats wrong with "taking pretty pictures"? How do you think Damian Peach, Nik Szymanek and Greg Parker all started? Did they suddenly go from noob to imaging super-gods? Did they one day switch from visual observers to imagers doing asteroid astrometry, photometry of variable stars, deep sky images of comets and other tranisient phenomena (which as we all know is the only valid reason for taking pictures of the night sky). And what about Russel Croman? Rob Gendler? Neil Fleming? Pete Lawrence? Should they stop taking images and revert back to visual observing? I think you`ll find they will tell you where to stick it....

What was the purpose of the column's contents? Was it to get people back to visual observing? Was it to prevent new astronomers rushing in to doing the imaging route? Was it just to fill the column with something this month? Or, if it really comes down to it, was it an unintentional thought that shows just how out of touch you might be?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
NickH

NickH

Posted
Posted

Just read it...

I've met Neil and he's a smart and very nice guy...

This article will indeed stir up a hornet's nest though...

As an avid imager myself...it's a bit close to the mark.. on saying that, each to their own I think

ho hum

Link to comment
Share on other sites
GazOC

GazOC

Posted
Posted

I think he just needs to move with the times, advice for beginners to the hobby used to be advised to get a pair of binos, learn the sky and then buy a scope if you are still interested in a year or so, don't even worry about photography until you've got 5+ years of observing under your belt. Given the kit avaliable and its cost back then this was decent advice but the option is now there for people to jump right into imaging from the start and many people are choosing this option. I think the writer just needs to appreciate this and just let people take what they want from the hobby and not be quite so judgemental.

I have to admit though this has caught me out in the past as well, a couple of years ago SteveL posted up stunnning image of M42 and noted that this was the first time he'd seen the object. It dawned on me then that the hobby was going through a major change, to be able to produce and image like that without having seen one of the Messier showpieces really amazed me (in a good way Steve!! :undecided: ).

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Reggie

Reggie

Posted
Posted

I know how to make Neil Bones happy, just nudge your framing round a few random degrees, then we can all be different. I guess writing 'grey smudge' doesn't get boring either no matter how many times you do it/see it/read about it?

Each to their own, I bet none of us got into astronomy or imaging or observing or sketching to make Neil happy and long may that happy trend continue. Anyone that takes up a hobby has the right to enjoy it whatever way they want to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.