Atik 314 and 80mm frac

[newbie alert]

Hi all,just asking if anyone uses a atik 314 and a small fast frac for imaging..ive just done some research as was disappointed with the results for my 16hr (same sensor as the 314 but older) seems like I'm undersampling according to astromany tools ccd..The sensor is at 6.45um and my scope is working at f5.5 inc the reducer.. it says im at 3'/ per pixel ..im not getting blocky stars,Just not getting the resolution I'd hoped for and some faint targets aren't showing in single or stacked subs

[wimvb]

It's always easier to judge from an image. But if you don't have blocky stars (I mean the fainter ones, not the brightest stars), then you can either have poor focus, poor guiding, poor seeing, high clouds, etc, etc. Details in nebulae only show up after stretching. How much you have caught depends on how much time you spent on the target.

But as I said: difficult to jugde without an image.

[Scott]

I use a similar combination and have used the HR + 80ED before. without wishing to make assumptions, I think you might be /doing something wrong. fainter targets may well need a stretch to see them but the brighter ones should be seen easily on the screen. How long are your sub?

These were both taken with HR (If my memory serves) when I first started using ccd camera. ones again, I can't remember the exposure times but they would be either 5min or 10min. As you can see, I missed focus on the HH which spoilt a decent image so it's crucial to get everything right. Please don't take any of this as critisism. I'm just trying to help you get to the bottom of things
Some more details and a image would help us help you. You say no detail can be seen in the stacks. are these stretched at all in editting software?

 

[swag72]

The Atik 314 and 80mm frac have been a work horse combination for many people as they start in CCD imaging. I think that it's a good combination and you should be getting good images  

[ollypenrice]

4 hours ago, swag72 said:

The Atik 314 and 80mm frac have been a work horse combination for many people as they start in CCD imaging. I think that it's a good combination and you should be getting good images  

I agree. Twice in your post you mention the F ratio but this is an irrelevant number when thinking about the system in basic terms. The number you want is pixel scale. For this you need only focal length and pixel size. So you are at 3.0"PP? That is indeed undersampled but that doesn't alter the fact that dozens and dozens of APOD images have been taken with the Kodak 11 meg chip and the Tak FSQ106 at 3.5"PP so more undersampled than you. These images include some of the most famous (and best) astrophotos ever taken. On pixel scale you don't have a problem. On F ratio you don't have a problem. On camera sensitivity you don't have a problem if it's working. (I started out with a 16HR.)

Now clearly, coarse imaging scales like 3"PP work best in widefield but, even so, they still work. Here's an example at 3.5"PP.

Olly

[newbie alert]

Oops..sorry not thought to look at the post as none had appeared for a few days..i try my best to answer but I've just deleated all my data from the 16hr camera... I started using the camera on and off the end part of the year..m45 was one of my first targets as getting spacing right was my first issue..just a test to get round stars.. I managed that so did a few diffent nebulae, monkey head.. IC443 .. just before I move on my passion is a HA monochrome image..l absolutely adore the contrast ..like doing long subs of 10-15 mins etc but looking at the data I wasn't getting the details etc that I was getting with a DSLR so I thought I'd do my first lrgb of m51 and still wasn't getting the details I expected but as still fairly fresh to software (artemis) etc I thought I'd try stacking in dss again but still no real details showing... anyway after a while I thought I'd try elephant trunk..nice long subs using the ha filter,think I ended with 50 mins of data and stretching as far as I dared go the nebula still not showing so I'm now getting to the stage where I think the ha filter isn't that great ,I was about to order myself a new baader one when Adam the Dr tooth on here had a great idea and blue tacked his clip in filter,fantastic idea to test see if I get better data,I knew it works well in my DSLR.. still no joy..stretched it way beyond the star bloating stage and still no nebula showing..arh!...cut a long story shorter, I used the astromany tools ccd and found out I'm undersampling with my current scope which is a w/o ZS80D..yes I agree Olly,it's pixel scale I was looking at but thought that's relative  to focal length and ratio?

Maybe I should start again at the beginning with a easy ish target..any suggestions?

In the meantime if I find a sub using the 16hr I post it up here..

Appreciated for taking  time to answer..thankyou..

[swag72]

What Ha filter are you using? You certainly should be seeing something. Are you sure that you are correctly pointing at the target? 

[newbie alert]

Hi Sara, it's a Astronomik..not sure on bandwidth as it came with the camera,filterwheel and filters..nothing special I expect..bought it all second hand ..even though it's cheap is expect to see something, and when I used my clip in filter which I know that works in my dslr

I know I'm in the right area as stars seem to match up to me.. I will try and find some data..must have some but majority is now deleted..

Can't find any data now but if skies are clear tonight I can do some collection.. shall I do some HA  or just rgb?galaxy or nebula?

[newbie alert]

On 13/07/2018 at 13:55, Scott said:

I use a similar combination and have used the HR + 80ED before. without wishing to make assumptions, I think you might be /doing something wrong. fainter targets may well need a stretch to see them but the brighter ones should be seen easily on the screen. How long are your sub?

These were both taken with HR (If my memory serves) when I first started using ccd camera. ones again, I can't remember the exposure times but they would be either 5min or 10min. As you can see, I missed focus on the HH which spoilt a decent image so it's crucial to get everything right. Please don't take any of this as critisism. I'm just trying to help you get to the bottom of things
Some more details and a image would help us help you. You say no detail can be seen in the stacks. are these stretched at all in editting software?

 

Hi Scott...no offence taken at all..id rather find out if I am doing something wrong rather than pay out for a new camera etc..your images are exactly what I was hoping to achieve so any advice will be greatfully recieved..I was hoping to do some imaging tonight but laptop won't switch on..! It never rains ehh..  

[Merlin66]

A Sara said, the ATiK 314L and the ED80 is a well used combo.

I have both and regularly use the 314L for spectroscopy.....

What software are you using to control the 314L??? I use AstroArt for all my work.

What do you set the cooling to?

 

[newbie alert]

18 hours ago, Merlin66 said:

A Sara said, the ATiK 314L and the ED80 is a well used combo.

I have both and regularly use the 314L for spectroscopy.....

What software are you using to control the 314L??? I use AstroArt for all my work.

What do you set the cooling to?

 

Its not a 314 its a 16hr  which shares the same sensor

My scope is a w/o zenithstar 80d

On the 16hr there's no set point cooling,it's a certain figure under ambient( don't know off the top of my head).. I'm( trying) using the Artemis software for capture..not got my head around the alignment,combining etc yet..

It's 25 degrees below ambient temp..

6. 
5 Thermal Stabilization 
Atik Instruments cameras are thermally stabilized in a way that your CCD will output 
the best result that it can deliver. This information often appears with the indication 
ΔT= -x where x in this case is 25. This means that the CCD’s temperature will drop 
25º C below outside temperature. This is a thermoelectric process and therefore in 
order to obtain the best results you should wait 1 to 2 minutes until thermal 
stabilization is achieved. This fact also depends on the outside temperature so, higher 
environment temperatures will demand more time for the CCD to stabilize. A fan is 
also included and it is protected by the fan protector.

[Starflyer]

This was taken with a 314L and WO ZS80 a few years ago, I was pleased with the result.

 

 

[carastro]

I stumbled on this chart on an Atik thread about undersamping and over sampling in the last few days and found it very useful since I am totally rubbish at this sort of stuff.   It might help answer your question. 

Sorry I can't make it any bigger, you might need to find a way to enlarge it a bit.

Carole 

 

[Davey-T]

7 minutes ago, carastro said:

Sorry I can't make it any bigger, you might need to find a way to enlarge it a bit.

Ctrl + a few times will make it big enough to read

Dave

[newbie alert]

9 hours ago, carastro said:

I stumbled on this chart on an Atik thread about undersamping and over sampling in the last few days and found it very useful since I am totally rubbish at this sort of stuff.   It might help answer your question. 

Sorry I can't make it any bigger, you might need to find a way to enlarge it a bit.

Carole 

 

Thanks Carole.. I've been using flos  astromany tools ccd app ..it says im at 3.02  with my setup

[Adam J]

On 13/07/2018 at 13:33, wimvb said:

poos seeing

Ha ha you said poo. 

 

OP: I think that you are barking up the wrong tree here, just because you are under-sampled (technically anyhow) it would not explain why you are not seeing the target. That is something else. You really do need to post an image. 

Irrespective 3" / pixel is not that bad, I was working at far worse resolution for quite a while and it still gave pleasing results. You will most likely want to try some two pannel images though to get the total number of Mpixels up a little. 

What target have you been trying to image and what length of exposure are you using?

Adam

[wimvb]

32 minutes ago, Adam J said:

Ha ha you said poo.

Nice catch, duely corrected now.

Btw "poos" is a perfectly family friendly dutch word, meaning "while" or "moment". "Poor" was the word I was trying to write, of course. Which btw, also means "leek", as in the vegetable, in the dutch dialect "Limburgs".

Am I going off topic now?