APM 16x70 ED (review of sorts)

[BinocularSky]

30 minutes ago, Stu said:

But the question is still basically the same. It is well known that many companies rebrand the same model, but not to change the optics in a model that looks exactly the same.

(Responding to the underlined bit)

I'm not sure that's the case, Stu. I have it on pretty good authority (which includes my own testing) that "branders" can specify different levels of optics. For example, I have seen different prism materials and coatings in UO BA1 15x70s, and I think it was Ed Zerenski over at CN who found different eyepiece types. Also if, as reported (by @Damo636?), the APM ED 16x70 has better colour correction than the Lunt Magnesium and Helios LightQuest incarnations, it would point to different glass being used in the lenses.

[FLO]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

But the question is still basically the same. It is well known that many companies rebrand the same model, but not to change the optics in a model that looks exactly the same.

To be fair, sometimes they do change glass, design and coatings. They can even change batch-to-batch! I just don't think this is one of those occasions. That is why I am curious to know what prompted Mr_Simnock to say the glass is different. If it is then that would be interesting but simply saying it doesn't make it so. 

Edit: I see Steve @BinocularSky beat me to it ?

[Stu]

26 minutes ago, BinocularSky said:

(Responding to the underlined bit)

I'm not sure that's the case, Stu. I have it on pretty good authority (which includes my own testing) that "branders" can specify different levels of optics. For example, I have seen different prism materials and coatings in UO BA1 15x70s, and I think it was Ed Zerenski over at CN who found different eyepiece types. Also if, as reported (by @Damo636?), the APM ED 16x70 has better colour correction than the Lunt Magnesium and Helios LightQuest incarnations, it would point to different glass being used in the lenses.

I do get that Steve, but there seemed to be a confusion between 'minor changes' which might include cosmetic differences or coating changes perhaps vs a complete change of glass. Would you not expect different labelling so the benefits are communicated to potential customers and a significant cost difference? Not sure if this is the case here or not.

[FLO]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

Would you not expect different labelling so the benefits are communicated to potential customers and a significant cost difference? 

Yes. I would. If one brand has a superior glass I would expect them to shout it from the roof-tops. 

If the APM binocular has better glass than the Helios then let's hear about it and give credit where it is due. But if it is only a rumour or presumption then that too should be made clear. 

[alanjgreen]

The APM has FK61 glass (it's clearly stated on both these links)

https://www.harrisontelescopes.co.uk/acatalog/apm-3-ms-16x70.html#tab-1

https://www.apm-telescopes.net/mobile/pro_info.php?id=10723

Dunno what the Helios uses, seems to be not mentioned  (intentionally?) anywhere. Shall we assume as Helios don't mention it then it is not as good or would you like us to assume that they use FK61 but don't like to mention it?

Either way, seems more of a question to be asked of Helios than of APM.

(I own the APM 16x70 ED and they are superb!)

Alan

[Stu]

Got there in the end Alan. You are likely correct but it is all a bit of a minefield, hard for people to know exactly what they are buying.

[FLO]

13 minutes ago, Stu said:

Got there in the end Alan. 

No, not yet we haven't. 

31 minutes ago, alanjgreen said:

Shall we assume as Helios don't mention it then it is not as good or would you like us to assume that they use FK61 but don't like to mention it?

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Because one manufacturer specifies it then some are presuming it is unique. 

A bit like a tyre manufactures claiming their design includes "beads made from high-strength braided steel". Sounds special, until you realise they all tyres have the same... 

I will make my own enquiries offline but I might find Helios distributors are reluctant to reveal glass types. 

Steve 

[FLO]

23 minutes ago, FLO said:

I will make my own enquiries offline but I might find Helios distributors are reluctant to reveal glass types. 

Okay. I now know... 

The Helios Lightquest-HR is the original Kunming/ United Optics model. When released there was only one version so all brands had the same glass types. But more recently Kunming made available another model fitted with ED glass. Helios didn't buy any of that model. APM did... 

The APM ED version reviewed by Mr_Simnock is fitted with a different, better, objective glass. The APM ED model is quantifiably better than the Helios model, hence the price difference ? 

Apologies for my pedantic posts in this thread but I do like to know these things. 

Steve 

[FLO]

1 hour ago, FLO said:

If one brand has a superior glass I would expect them to shout it from the roof-tops. 

I bet they will now ? 

Steve

[Stub Mandrel]

2 hours ago, FLO said:

To be fair, sometimes they do change glass, design and coatings. They can even change batch-to-batch! I just don't think this is one of those occasions. That is why I am curious to know what prompted Mr_Simnock to say the glass is different. If it is then that would be interesting but simply saying it doesn't make it so. 

Edit: I see Steve @BinocularSky beat me to it ?

To underline what @FLO say, I know a number of importers of Chinese-made machine tools. The market is much like that for optics.

On the surface you can have two-dozen lathes that all look the same aside from the paint job, as they are all based on the same basic (Russian) design.

In practice they can all be different, even different factories make machine to the same basic design. It's not just obvious things like the type of motor, accessories fitted or different bed-lengths, you can pay for 'invisible' things like better quality control, different electronics.

In China, nothing goes in the bin... QC fails get passed to less demanding customers and the real crud go to people who rework them or just tidy them up,., or even produce 'bitsa machines' by assembling surplus parts from different sources. This end of the market is usually sold direct through auction or direct imp[rot sites.

It's really obvious that the same goes down with optics, with things like testing, glass choice, coatings and blacking of the edges of lenses all being 'invisible' differences that might differentiate between two binoculars or eyepieces that look the same at first sight.

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, FLO said:

A bit like a tyre manufactures claiming their design includes "beads made from high-strength braided steel". Sounds special, until you realise they all tyres have the same... 

... or Kevlar. it's amazing what some people can make into a selling point. Such as 'Gluten free' dairy products...

[BinocularSky]

22 hours ago, FLO said:

Apologies for my pedantic posts in this thread but I do like to know these things.

Don't apologise. It is important that we know what words actually mean!

[Mr_Simnock]

Quote

The APM ED version reviewed by Mr_Simnock is fitted with a different, better, objective glass. The APM ED model is quantifiably better than the Helios model, hence the price difference 

Well the price is one of the main points that makes me assume (or guess whichever) that the Helios model has different glass. If the Helios does have ED glass then they are very well priced for it and you would think that they (the vendors) would point this out as I think that would be a great selling point, it's certainly what got me attracted to them. If you want I could just phone up Optical Vision Ltd (the owners of the Helios trade mark in the UK) up and ask them if the Helios Light quest binoculars do have ED glass or not. Next time I do an equipment review it will just be "well I like these" and leave it at that

Quote

It is important that we know what words actually mean!

This reminds me of the Blackadder episode 'Ink and incapability' when Dr Johnson is trying to explain to Prince George about his dictionary.

[FLO]

9 hours ago, Mr_Simnock said:

... that makes me assume (or guess whichever) that the Helios model has different glass.

It was a good guess.