migration windows to linux

[JamesF]

Oh!  SINIX!  That was the Siemens/Nixdorf one.  Ran on the i386, but we had at least one machine based on the Nat Semi 32k processor running it.  A bizarre implementation if I recall correctly.  Somehow you could get it to behave like a number of different versions of UNIX (System V or BSD say) and it was a right pain in the backside if you got confused about which was which.

James

[stash_old]

1 hour ago, JamesF said:

Oooh, there were quite a few actually.  Minix must have been one of the first actual PC architecture i386-based ones (though I don't think it was ever much more than an academic thing) along with Xenix (Xenix had been around for years on x86 processors prior to the i386 and I think actually might have originated within Microsoft).  SCO UNIX (which again ran on the i386-based PC) grew out of Xenix and only after that Linux and the x86 BSD clones came along.  I remember using some Xenix-based TI machines back in the day.  I have a nagging feeling Siemens or Nixdorf (they "borged" each other at some point in the late 80s I think) had some sort of i386 Xenix box too.  And Sun ported SunOS, too!  I only ever used their 68k and Sparc based systems, but I'm sure they offered an i386-based system in the late 80s.  For some reason my brain wants to associate it with the name "Roadrunner", but I can't recall why.

James

You are of 100% course correct but the cheapest before Free Linux was the SCO,which i used, which was still expensive - even before M/S took them over to sue Linux. AIX was another Unix on IBM, [removed word] ,Singer/ICL, ATM's  makers (Honeywell and ? another big USA lot now defunct ) etc etc but hey were mainstream and cost. As far as I remember ,programmed them both,  Texas Mini (990's ?) and Micro(910) neither had Xenix - but memory plays tricks or different series machine Ha Ha

[stash_old]

15 hours ago, fozzybear said:

IBM DOS and MSDOS the later bill gates creation

I think both were Bill's - he earned his money doing IBM DOS which he invested into M/S - gave him "credence"

[stash_old]

1 hour ago, JamesF said:

Oh!  SINIX!  That was the Siemens/Nixdorf one.  Ran on the i386, but we had at least one machine based on the Nat Semi 32k processor running it.  A bizarre implementation if I recall correctly.  Somehow you could get it to behave like a number of different versions of UNIX (System V or BSD say) and it was a right pain in the backside if you got confused about which was which.

James

SINIX sounds about right for Nixdorf - the old Midland Bank group used them a lot at one time.  Good old days LOL ?

Edited August 15, 2018 by stash_old

[stash_old]

I know its going to open a can of worms but maybe besides tutorials we could start holding Images of std Astro Operating set ups(Mint/Ubuntu etc) with a minimal tutorial to get people going who are a bit "iffy" - Comments/Ideas ?

Guess FLO would not be too happy it might bump into ASIair sales - Why dont FLO offer Stellarmate anyway - commercial reason  - no offence FLO just speaking aloud!

[JamesF]

I have a vague recollection that the Texas machines that ran Xenix were possibly called the BS1300 and BS1500.

James

[alacant]

4 hours ago, stash_old said:

Lets face it those who have a working Ubuntu version on RPI (or other SCB / variants) could just pass on their working images for others to write to a SD Card and start using with very little changes. More people would try Indi - maybe!

Let's see. So that's a user who can't get his mount to move with stellarium and asking questions on SGL about why not, burning an iso to a sd card and then installing on a headless box by typing nonsense into putty...? What could possibly go wrong? Love it! 

**BTW, hands up. Who knows what 'stellarium' is?

Edited August 15, 2018 by alacant

[Spikey]

3 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Hardly! I still have nightmares about CPM, all the complexity of managing a 1980s mainframe on your desktop...

Who can forget pip with its destination   source command. I used to have to read that one out over the phone which was fine until DOS came out then everyone would ignore me and do source, destination often with catastrophic consequences.

[Stub Mandrel]

24 minutes ago, alacant said:

**BTW, hands up. Who knows what 'stellarium' is?

Well more than have the faintest clue what linux gibberish means... I have a computer to try it on, but although I know what 'download an ISO' means (massively ambiguous as ISO is just a standards institution) but then ANY and EVERY source of advice dissolves into names of Linux  distributions, utilities, drivers, commands etc. etc. and of course  no-one ever bothers to explain what purpose and scope of any bit of software is.

Getting everything to work on a PC with Ascom is hard enough because of the poor way that ascom's function is explained and the awful guidance for installing EQmod etc. Compared to that, Linux scares the pants off me and I'm far from a computer numpty.

[Spikey]

2 hours ago, stash_old said:

I know its going to open a can of worms but maybe besides tutorials we could start holding Images of std Astro Operating set ups(Mint/Ubuntu etc) with a minimal tutorial to get people going who are a bit "iffy" - Comments/Ideas ?

Guess FLO would not be too happy it might bump into ASIair sales - Why dont FLO offer Stellarmate anyway - commercial reason  - no offence FLO just speaking aloud!

Most of it is already on here in one form or another so if someone wants to write a build tutorial that's fine. Discussions - Software would be the appropriate place.

[alacant]

5 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

no-one ever bothers to explain what purpose and scope of any bit of software is.

 

Linux documentation is written by coders for Linux experts. If you think ascom documentation is lacking, don't go anywhere near indi. 

What we need is someone who's just done it and who isn't either a coder or an expert to document it. No one has managed to do it for ascom so I doubt very much anyone will be able to do it for...

I wonder, just wonder, if there is anyone who could document indi for a beginner. I don't think it's possible. It's absolutely wonderful software though. Once you've been spoiled by it, you'll never go back to ascom and Microsoft updates.

Edited August 15, 2018 by alacant

[Alien 13]

I often wonder about Linux users that perhaps spend days/weeks/months trying to iron out issues for a system that is pretty useless for everyday things when Windows just works...

Alan

[Stub Mandrel]

Trouble is, anyone good enough at it to write the manual just wants to write more features/modules etc.

[DarkAntimatter]

2 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

I often wonder about Linux users that perhaps spend days/weeks/months trying to iron out issues for a system that is pretty useless for everyday things when Windows just works...

Alan

Well, there are a lot of things that just work in linux too.  Speaking as a person who uses computers to get stuff done but doesn't enjoy trying to iron out issues I find linux more productive overall for me.  Try installing a recent linux desktop, such as Ubuntu, and a fresh copy of Windows 10 on a new computer from scratch and you might have a different outlook on which comes the closest to just working.  In the old days linux had a lot more problems but I suspect it now works out of the box much better than WIndows.  The reason Windows has an "easy" reputation now is that the new computer almost always comes with Windows already installed for you.  Granted there will be the occasional new device which needs a special driver and for which the manufacturer hands you a Windows driver but doesn't have one for linux, but it is getting rarer.  

I would also cast a vote in favor of a getting started with Kstars/ekos thread, thanks.  

Edited August 15, 2018 by DarkAntimatter

[Alien 13]

10 minutes ago, DarkAntimatter said:

Well, there are a lot of things that just work in linux too.  Speaking as a person who uses computers to get stuff done but doesn't enjoy trying to iron out issues I find linux more productive overall for me.  Try installing a recent linux desktop, such as Ubuntu, and a fresh copy of Windows 10 on a new computer from scratch and you might have a different outlook on which comes the closest to just working.  In the old days linux had a lot more problems but I suspect it now works out of the box much better than WIndows.  The reason Windows has an "easy" reputation now is that the new computer almost always comes with Windows already installed for you.  Granted there will be the occasional new device for which the manufacturer hands you a Windows driver but doesn't have one for linux, but it is getting rarer.  

I would also cast a vote in favor of a getting started with Kstars/ekos thread, thanks.  

Maybe its just me but linux cant handle the latest high end graphics cards and has difficulties with most ancillaries like Canon cameras, printers and other drivers...it seems to default to some kind of generic option without all the proper options. I do use Linux mint on one of my laptops but find it limited, would be nice if I could use Photoshop and play the latest PC games with it.

Alan

[DarkAntimatter]

18 minutes ago, Alien 13 said:

Maybe its just me but linux cant handle the latest high end graphics cards and has difficulties with most ancillaries like Canon cameras, printers and other drivers...it seems to default to some kind of generic option without all the proper options. I do use Linux mint on one of my laptops but find it limited, would be nice if I could use Photoshop and play the latest PC games with it.

Alan

I agree about photoshop.  Gimp is really powerful, but probably not quite as full-featured as ps and less user friendly.  The main drawbacks of non-WIndows, to me, are no photoshop, fewer games, and no office for the case when you need to collaborate with office users (there are good alternatives if office compatibility is not important).  Well, OSX has ps and office, so I guess that is a linux drawback.

I do use high-end NVIDIA graphics cards for both visual and CUDA applications and don't have trouble with them at all.  NVIDIA provides and frequently updates their drivers in linux as well as windows.  The HPC (high-performance computing) world is dominated now by computers with CUDA GPUs and almost all of them run linux - GPU support is solid, at least for NVIDIA GPUs.

I've found network printers are supported very well and linux finds them without any hints and gets the proper drivers for any printers I select.  Haven't tried connecting a printer directly to the computer.  My Nikon DSLR works well; haven't tried Canon.  

I guess operating systems are something of a personal preference issue and they all have their pros and cons.  

[Alien 13]

1 minute ago, DarkAntimatter said:

I agree about photoshop.  Gimp is really powerful, but probably not quite as full-featured as ps and less user friendly.  The main drawbacks of non-WIndows, to me, are no photoshop, fewer games, and no office for the case when you need to collaborate with office users (there are good alternatives if office compatibility is not important).  Well, OSX has ps and office, so I guess that is a linux drawback.

I do use high-end NVIDIA graphics cards for both visual and CUDA applications and don't have trouble with them at all.  NVIDIA provides and frequently updates their drivers in linux as well as windows.  The HPC (high-performance computing) world is dominated now by computers with CUDA GPUs and almost all of them run linux - GPU support is solid, at least for NVIDIA GPUs.

I've found network printers are supported very well and linux finds them without any hints and gets the proper drivers for any printers I select.  Haven't tried connecting a printer directly to the computer.  My Nikon DSLR works well; haven't tried Canon.  

I guess operating systems are something of a personal preference issue and they all have their pros and cons.  

You are correct with most of that but I run EOS utilities and Canon camera connect with wifi control and neither are supported by Linux, as for printers I find it hit and miss I can use my Epson XP605 but not a lot of options are available same with my R.A.T mouse. The real deal breaker is gaming.

Alan

[stash_old]

1 hour ago, Alien 13 said:

but I run EOS utilities and Canon camera connect with wifi control and neither are supported by Linux

Not quite true - yes Canon apps aren't on Linux but Canon Dslr via Indi seems now to be working quite well - ok a few bits and bobs are quirky but for Astro work Kstars/Ekos/Canon DSLR is , and I was a big critic, working well. Plus as it is ,running on RPI3 (in my case), it is fully wireless on all canon dslr that work under Kstars/Indi even if they aren't wireless - try saying that about Windows and I use APT/BYEOS but they can' do that.

Subject to limitations  Kstars/Indi is coming of age ,IMHO, it just needs to stop trying to be "all things to all men".

As for gaming we are talking cheap SCB to run Astro Stuff so yes Gaming is not supported well by Linux by thats not what we are refering too here - in my book anyway

[alacant]

2 hours ago, DarkAntimatter said:

Try installing a recent linux desktop, such as Ubuntu, and a fresh copy of Windows 10 on a new computer from scratch and you might have a different outlook on which comes the closest to just working

Hi. Both are installed in the same way. The main difference is that the latter you'd never have to do; the man in the pub would do it for you or you could pay someone to do it.

5 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I know what 'download an ISO' means (massively ambiguous as ISO is just a standards institution)

I should of course have written ISO-9660, which refers to a file system. Now you know that, it's easy; you should have Ubuntu and indi-eqmod up within a matter of minutes and your first Linux stacked image before midnight LOL!

Cheers and clear skies everyone.

Edited August 15, 2018 by alacant

[stash_old]

3 minutes ago, alacant said:

Linux stacked image before midnight LOL!

No way its cloudy - LOL

[Alien 13]

29 minutes ago, stash_old said:

Not quite true - yes Canon apps aren't on Linux but Canon Dslr via Indi seems now to be working quite well - ok a few bits and bobs are quirky but for Astro work Kstars/Ekos/Canon DSLR is , and I was a big critic, working well. Plus as it is ,running on RPI3 (in my case), it is fully wireless on all canon dslr that work under Kstars/Indi even if they aren't wireless - try saying that about Windows and I use APT/BYEOS but they can' do that.

Subject to limitations  Kstars/Indi is coming of age ,IMHO, it just needs to stop trying to be "all things to all men".

As for gaming we are talking cheap SCB to run Astro Stuff so yes Gaming is not supported well by Linux by thats not what we are refering too here - in my book anyway

Thats the point, canon apps are what I want not some half baked attempt at getting a connection. Same with a lot of stuff.

Alan

[stash_old]

12 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

half baked attempt

No problem your opinion -  but its not "half baked" but agree Canon might encompass Linux after all even Apple Mac OSX are based on    -   Unix/Linux.

? Clear Skies

[JamesF]

5 minutes ago, stash_old said:

Canon might encompass Linux after all even Apple Mac OSX are based on    -   Unix/Linux.

Indeed.  Apple are no strangers to UNIX at all.  The current MacOS grew out of NextSTEP which traces its ancestry back to BSD UNIX and some of the early Motorola 68k-based Macs ran a UNIX variant called (I think) AU/X.

It is still quite possible to build relatively complex applications that will run on both MacOS and Linux from the same source.  You just have to want to do it.

James

[spillage]

I have found that linux can be a bit of a steep climb to get things up and running and not just click and go like windows. The main thing to consider is that once its up and running you never need to do anything else and it will probably run for years untouched.

I hate using windows and the last update screwed up loads of drivers for me and this cost a day to put it all right.

You need to ask yourself if spending so time spent to have reliability is worth it.

I am sure GIMP is just as effective a PS but I do find very little in the way of guides for GIMP but I guess its just a case of not being as popular.

Currently I have a new pc to install at home for day to day use but will be looking at installing it with indi/kstars and see how it goes. If I like it I will swap it over with the one running my astro kit and then be microsoft free.

[alacant]

Time for a thread update perhaps.

Has anyone else managed the migration yet? If you have, tell us how.