TS UNC 200mm f/6 Custom Carbon Newtonian

[iPeace]

The good thing about realizing you should have done something long ago is knowing why. The awareness of what you've been missing adds an intense sweetness to the delayed experience; and you may as well savour it, as opposed to dwelling on regret for lost time.

This particular quest began as the search for a Big Lunar Scope, for Extra Moon - and a planet or two - when not on the road. As such, it did not have to be particularly travel-friendly, but would have to function enjoyably on my mount and tripod of choice, the Losmandy AZ8 / Berlebach PLANET combination. Fully manual, altitude-azimuth, with 'slow motion' control, no motors, no alignment, just left, right, up and down. That's me. (A Dobsonian mount with slow-motion control - preferably without DIY - would be just the ticket for me...but that story is yet to be written.) But most importantly, it would have to be a substantial improvement over the TV-85 on Luna. Now you're right to think that there should be plenty of candidates of multiple designs to fill the criteria, but in my case, there's a manifest undercurrent of personal preference for the TV-85; it can't show everything, but what it does show is just so nice...so, most unscientifically, it's my reference point. If, as a scope, you can let me stop wondering whether I shouldn't just be using the TV-85, aperturial limitations and all, we're in business. If not, well...

So, to recap, tried a 120ED - really nice, but in hindsight not enough (for me, see above). In my mind, this more or less ruled out anything with less aperture (yes, I've asked the 100mm fluorite elephant which may or may not need a cradle or ruby tube rings to wait outside). The 6" Mak has been documented, as well as my entry into the Newtonian realm, first with a 6" f/6 by GSO, later with a 6" f/8 VX6L. The former was a most affordable, non-committal acquisition which totally surprised me by eschewing any collimation dread I had, and by Just Working. The latter was another conservative step taken to see the effects of a Better Mirror and longer focal ratio; marginal, in my case. But the Newts were getting it done and my understanding of the subtleties of just how Aperture Works - not as straightforward as I previously thought - has grown. I also have a new appreciation for DSOs...

Thus, I was ready to cast the die for hopefully the end of the Big Lunar Scope Search. An 8" f/6 Newtonian, if suitably light of construction, would be well within the capability of the mount and if of decent quality, well-assembled and perhaps optimized for visual use, it should occupy a very sweet spot. I got in touch with TS, who offer a line of customizable carbon-tubed Newtonians, discussed options and agreed on a formula. It arrived yesterday.

Very nicely built with attention to detail, very, VERY easy to collimate and featuring a Baader Diamond SteelTrack focuser, well within my hopes for weight and bulk, I was lucky enough to get it out on the very first night.

What to expect? The description of the actual mirrors varies; 'Selected Taiwanese quality optics' sticks in my mind, which gave me confidence based on my prior experience with the 6" f/6 (also - as I assume) from GSO. So it should be at least as good, but how much better?

Twilight still reigned, but Jupiter had winked into view, and after a summary collimation check and finder alignment, I was ready. Or so I thought.

I wasn't.

I have never seen Jupiter this good. OK, maybe I was lucky with the conditions, maybe twilight is better for Jove, but this was truly something else. The 6" Newts have had me repeatedly wondering whether I needed to try a filter in order to fully enjoy the additionally-resolved detail of the planet; never mind that, my lad. This view - at 240x - was just sooooooo good. Besides the beloved, now-Gimungous Red Spot, the erstwhile gradients that covered the regions between the Equatorial Belts and the poles were now resolved into far more recognizable bands with details for which I'll have to look up names. I knew then that this was the scope I had been looking for.

The Moon was low, hiding behind neighbours' houses, but would make a short appearance between top-stories a while later. I checked out Izar - best Newtonian view to date, but still not as good as the TV-85 (but I was inadvertently using more magnification than with the frac; will try this again soon) - then resorted to globulars. M3, M71 and of course M13 - so much fun with some aperture to swing around. When Luna finally did peek out in between the rooftops, the detail at the terminator was most rewarding, with stuff I've never seen before, most notably the Lake of Summer.

One thing about a carbon tube - it's not easy to get a good photo. I'll live with that.

I've never named a Newt, not being convinced that it would stay on. This one certainly speaks to me, but a suitable name eludes for the moment. It doesn't seem to mind.

P.S. You may know that Mr. English has documented his own 8" f/6 Newtonian experience: https://neilenglish.net/test-diving-the-sywatcher-skyliner200p/

I certainly feel as happy with mine, all the more so because it's successfully mounted in a way ideal for my own enjoyment. Will there ever be a Dobsonian-mounted Newt for me? A true Light Bucket? Hm.... I'll need to shift a couple of smaller Newts, first.

[vlaiv]

8" F/6 Newtonian is lovely scope, isn't it?

 

[Timebandit]

 

 

Getting aperture fever I think Mike?

6" Newts , now 8" Newt, maybe a 10" Newt next ??????

The 8" newt really is the goldy lock's size IMO . Reasonable money, still ease of use due to weight and size to handle, and great performance if it has a quality mirror

I love my 8" OOuk newt on the AZ4, just so portable for a grab and go. But effective on lunar ,planetary and DSO, just a great all round scope. 

That carbon fibre tube looks very space age, hope you enjoy and look forward to your reports and experience with the new Newt(and don't forget to name it ?)?

 

 

 

[JeremyS]

Great report iPeace. Looks like you’ve found what you want!

[JeremyS]

Have you had a look through a C9.25 iPeace? Mine gives amazing views of Jupiter and I’m a confirmed Tak 100mm user ?

Fine on my WO EZTouch Mount too and relatively easily transported by car.

Just an idea in case you are thinking what next to try

[Tyson M]

My 8" Orion Xt8 plus dob with moonlight is a joy to use as well. Jupiter indeed shows a wealth of detail some nights like you mentioned, that are mere glimps in smaller refractors. More often then not though, I pull out the refractors for convenience. The dob is a good tool to have when you have more time observing. 

[nightfisher]

Excellent Mike, sounds like you have found the right scope, glad it works well on the mount

[iPeace]

Out again last night; seeing was intermittent at best. This was interesting in itself, though, as there was such a huge difference between the best and worst moments...provided there are good moments, they are certainly worth waiting for.

Besides Jupiter, Saturn was on the menu. Hopelessly low in my local viewing arena, it was mostly like looking through jelly, but for the fleetingest of moments there was lots more to see than ever before. This is going to be a lot of fun.

On 27/06/2018 at 16:55, JeremyS said:

Great report iPeace. Looks like you’ve found what you want!

 

2 hours ago, nightfisher said:

Excellent Mike, sounds like you have found the right scope, glad it works well on the mount

It sure seems like it, the scope has a lucky feel to it. Collimates without fuss and holds for the session, everything's just so smooth and dandy.

And indeed, the mount handles it well, I'm satisfied this is about as big / heavy as I should go. 'Hands on' visual perhaps gives a bit more tolerance than motorized tracking (I wouldn't know this, luddite) - if the mount was constantly moving the scope around, it might be a different story.

Now to settle down a bit, shift a couple of 6" mirrors and clear out some other surplus bits.

Thanks all.

[Stu]

10 minutes ago, iPeace said:

Out again last night; seeing was intermittent at best. This was interesting in itself, though, as there was such a huge difference between the best and worst moments...provided there are good moments, they are certainly worth waiting for.

Besides Jupiter, Saturn was on the menu. Hopelessly low in my local viewing arena, it was mostly like looking through jelly, but for the fleetingest of moments there was lots more to see than ever before. This is going to be a lot of fun.

 

It sure seems like it, the scope has a lucky feel to it. Collimates without fuss and holds for the session, everything's just so smooth and dandy.

And indeed, the mount handles it well, I'm satisfied this is about as big / heavy as I should go. 'Hands on' visual perhaps gives a bit more tolerance than motorized tracking (I wouldn't know this, luddite) - if the mount was constantly moving the scope around, it might be a different story.

Now to settle down a bit, shift a couple of 6" mirrors and clear out some other surplus bits.

Thanks all.

Your first observation is one I’ve noticed over the years. A smaller frac gives very nicely stable images with a fairly consistent level of detail visible. You have to work harder to pull the detail out but it is presented in a way which makes this pleasurable (to me)

The larger apertures can show significantly more detail and colour, but as you have seen, the views change a lot between best and worst seeing so in some ways it can be a little frustrating waiting for the good moments, particularly knowing how good they are when they come! An 8” is a very good compromise for planetary viewing though.

At some point it may be worth looking at a driven mount. I use a Vixen GP for my smaller scopes, just with simple dual axis drives. It needs no setup, just plonk it down level and north, turn on the tracking and the target stays basically centred with the odd tweak needed now and then depending upon how accurate my plonking was!

This sort of thing works well for planetary and lunar when you can be in one similar position for longer periods. I don’t enjoy this type of manual mount for star hopping though, it just gets into so many different positions and can be awkward to find things. As a goto it works fine though if you have that fitted.

Perhaps one of the iOptron AZ Pro Goto mounts might be worth considering in future?

https://www.altairastro.com/Ioptron-AZ-PRO-GOTO-mount.html

[iPeace]

9 minutes ago, Stu said:

Your first observation is one I’ve noticed over the years. A smaller frac gives very nicely stable images with a fairly consistent level of detail visible. You have to work harder to pull the detail out but it is presented in a way which makes this pleasurable (to me) 

As I wrote it, I did indeed think of preceeding comments of yours to that effect. I do agree, and it's just as well, because this carbon planet eater will not fit in an overhead luggage bin.

15 minutes ago, Stu said:

The larger apertures can show significantly more detail and colour, but as you have seen, the views change a lot between best and worst seeing so in some ways it can be a little frustrating waiting for the good moments, particularly knowing how good they are when they come! An 8” is a very good compromise for planetary viewing though.

It was primarily a Moon thing for me, but the planetary boost is most welcome. I suppose perhaps I was ready for a new dimension. The fracs will stay and travel, of course. It's just good to have a biggun to stick on the mount when at home.

23 minutes ago, Stu said:

At some point it may be worth looking at a driven mount.

I've been pondering one of those SW alt-az WiFi gadgets, just for the Herschel of it. Small frac, on holiday? We'll see.

[Tonynexevo925]

Nice write up Mike, always a pleasure to read. I can relate to your experience completely. That’s a lovely looking scope and the performance sounds excellent too. 

I was amazed at the OOVX14 and now usually flip between that and the TV85 for night - though the VX14 can’t be described as portable it is still manageable and great for dso with the nexus push to system. 

I do use someone’s cast off 120ED ??? for white light alongside the Lunt 80.

I’ll be interested to learn what name Stanley’s brother eventually gets christened with ?

[JeremyS]

53 minutes ago, Stu said:

Your first observation is one I’ve noticed over the years. A smaller frac gives very nicely stable images with a fairly consistent level of detail visible. You have to work harder to pull the detail out but it is presented in a way which makes this pleasurable (to me)

The larger apertures can show significantly more detail and colour, but as you have seen, the views change a lot between best and worst seeing so in some ways it can be a little frustrating waiting for the good moments, particularly knowing how good they are when they come! An 8” is a very good compromise for planetary viewing though.

At some point it may be worth looking at a driven mount. I use a Vixen GP for my smaller scopes, just with simple dual axis drives. It needs no setup, just plonk it down level and north, turn on the tracking and the target stays basically centred with the odd tweak needed now and then depending upon how accurate my plonking was!

This sort of thing works well for planetary and lunar when you can be in one similar position for longer periods. I don’t enjoy this type of manual mount for star hopping though, it just gets into so many different positions and can be awkward to find things. As a goto it works fine though if you have that fitted.

Perhaps one of the iOptron AZ Pro Goto mounts might be worth considering in future?

https://www.altairastro.com/Ioptron-AZ-PRO-GOTO-mount.html

The iOptron Looks an interesting piece of kit Stu. Even a C9.25 looks within its capacity. Ever used one?

[Stu]

43 minutes ago, JeremyS said:

The iOptron Looks an interesting piece of kit Stu. Even a C9.25 looks within its capacity. Ever used one?

I haven’t Jeremy, but @Pig and @kerrylewis have them I think. Always been interested in one but for some reason I am wary of iOptron. I seem to remember some slight issue Shaun had but don’t recall what it was. I believe it is working well now.

[JeremyS]

20 minutes ago, Stu said:

I haven’t Jeremy, but @Pig and @kerrylewis have them I think. Always been interested in one but for some reason I am wary of iOptron. I seem to remember some slight issue Shaun had but don’t recall what it was. I believe it is working well now.

Thanks Stu. I’ve always steered away because of issues with an earlier ver of one of their GEMs. But as you say, perhaps no issues now

[25585]

3 hours ago, iPeace said:

Out again last night; seeing was intermittent at best. This was interesting in itself, though, as there was such a huge difference between the best and worst moments...provided there are good moments, they are certainly worth waiting for.

Besides Jupiter, Saturn was on the menu. Hopelessly low in my local viewing arena, it was mostly like looking through jelly, but for the fleetingest of moments there was lots more to see than ever before. This is going to be a lot of fun.

 

It sure seems like it, the scope has a lucky feel to it. Collimates without fuss and holds for the session, everything's just so smooth and dandy.

And indeed, the mount handles it well, I'm satisfied this is about as big / heavy as I should go. 'Hands on' visual perhaps gives a bit more tolerance than motorized tracking (I wouldn't know this, luddite) - if the mount was constantly moving the scope around, it might be a different story.

Now to settle down a bit, shift a couple of 6" mirrors and clear out some other surplus bits.

Thanks all.

With the cost of AZ8 & tripod I am not surprised you chose a scope it would take

Recently having got a 10 inch F6 I can assure you that it's a good next step after your 8 inch, or as well as. Not quite such a jump as to 12 inch F5 but for handling easily, best combination of light grasp, easy collimation and eyepiece tolerance. Nice to have both. 

Nice CF tube, less damageable  than aluminium. Good choice. 

I hope you look at more DSOs now. So much to see outside the solar system!

[iPeace]

3 hours ago, Tonynexevo925 said:

I do use someone’s cast off 120ED

Take care of that one, it's good.

[Tonynexevo925]

2 minutes ago, iPeace said:

Take care of that one, it's good.

Yes it is - very pleased with the performance both WL and normal night Astro ??

[Pig]

2 hours ago, JeremyS said:

Thanks Stu. I’ve always steered away because of issues with an earlier ver of one of their GEMs. But as you say, perhaps no issues now

Hiya Jeremy, Ihave had mine a couple of years now and not had any issues, I did have to change the battery recently, quite a simple job. 

I have used an 8” SCT on the mount without any issues ? but I believe Kerry has 9.25 and would be able to give you the benefit of his experience on a like for like basis.

On the whole I am very happy with the mounts versatility and it’s performance ? with accurate alignment it does a very good job of finding and tracking objects to the point that if you you can’t see a very difficult target you have the confidence in Knowing it isn’t because your scope is pointed in the wrong position. I did write a review that is posted on SGL somewhere ? that highlighted a couple of issues that can be disaterous if your not aware of them ? 

[kerrylewis]

I love the Iopton mount and it works a treat with no issues. They seem to have come down in price too - last time I looked anyway.

Ioptron are very good with support and responding to emails. I asked them about the mount's capacity for my various scopes and it seemed like the 9.25 plus diagonal etc was a little bit above its capacity with two counterweights. 

[JeremyS]

Many thanks @Pig and @kerrylewis for your helpful comments. The mount looks good, especially for my Tak FS102, but it appears the C9.25 would be a step to far. 

So I'll probably give it a miss.

[Tyson M]

On 29/06/2018 at 02:33, Stu said:

Your first observation is one I’ve noticed over the years. A smaller frac gives very nicely stable images with a fairly consistent level of detail visible. You have to work harder to pull the detail out but it is presented in a way which makes this pleasurable (to me)

The larger apertures can show significantly more detail and colour, but as you have seen, the views change a lot between best and worst seeing so in some ways it can be a little frustrating waiting for the good moments, particularly knowing how good they are when they come! An 8” is a very good compromise for planetary viewing though.

Well said. This has been exactly my experience as well.