Scope cost VS accessories cost

[mark81]

Hi all, so this might end up quite a complex question but.... I was wondering whether any of you use a general rule when buying accessories for your scopes and what limits - if any- you put on them. For example, I have read a bunch of threads where an EP will be recommended and then they will use the word 'overkill' as the price of the EP greatly outweighs that of the scope.  I have an st80 which was £140 and I have spent about 150 on it and feel it's as good as I can get it without 'overkill'.  Of course a slightly bigger and better scope would open up many options and therefore warrant more money being spent. Then today I noticed the FLO are now selling Tele Vue EPs, some of which are over £500 (the cost of an 8 inch dob?) So I guess a lot of it depends on personal preference, the quality of the products they use and exactly what they want out of them...  I'm not even sure if there is a question there ☺️ but any thoughts or comments ?  

Mark

[JohnSadlerAstro]

I am a cynic. I see the accessories trade as being more profitable than trade in actual telescopes--and as they are all sold individually, more space for profit! I too am guilty of overkill, although the fact that the coma corrector alone is about the same cost as the 130PDS makes me feel that it really isn't an accessory, but part of the telescope.

As for upgraded focusers and so on, I can see the sense in them, but eyepieces costing as much as a dob--well surely you'd get a better view with the dob and the poorer quality eyepiece than with the small scope and the £500 one? I don't know whats in them to make them so expensive tbh.

John

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Hi Mark,

I am no expert only being relatively new to the hobby but I would say that it is pretty normal, we at least not uncommon, for the scope to be far cheaper than all the other bits.

But in many instances I now think that is totally justified for several reasons.

• Often a cheap scope will still provide good images, certainly for observation, maybe a little less for imaging, although depending on the ancillary equipment a relatively cheap scope can still create stunning images.
• Generally, even for observing, the outlay on the mount will be at least as much as the scope and often much more especially if tracking and goto are wanted. For imaging then the mount is everything so normal to lay out 2X, 3X or more on mount than scope, especially if starting out as you can start with a relatively cheap scope but need the mount for good imaging.
• The EPs you buy are just as important, and maybe more so, than the actual scope, so makes sense to get good quality as it makes viewing much more pleasurable and easier on the eye.
• If imaging again then you may need several other fairly expensive items to get the scope to produce good images, such as flatteners, cameras, filters, filter wheels etc.
• Also the cheaper end scopes are often reasonably good quality mirrors, lenses etc and fairly robust but to keep costs down the manufacturers put poor quality EPs with the package and low quality single speed focussers. So upgrading these makes sense.
• But most  of all at the end of the day you do not normally pass on all the other bits you bought when you sell your scope on and upgrade to something better. The EPs, filters etc if you buy good quality and the correct stuff make part of what could be a lifetimes collection, to be used time and time again on many furute scopes you buy. Whereas buy cheap accessories and very soon you will want to upgrade many of those as well.

But after saying that I know where you are coming from here. And a 2nd hand £150 scope suddenly has £600 add ons. But as said as long as you buy wisely then the money is not wasted. Of course there is normally a limit and I am not saying buy all £500 EPs.

Steve

[Stu]

When you consider what goes into a high end eyepiece vs a newt or basic refractor I think the cost is understandable. Multiple elements, each ground, polished, multi coated and assembled and aligned in the eyepiece casing, properly blackened on the edges to prevent glare then sealed so it doesn't fog up.

Don't forget also the complexity of designing in the first place and cost of various exotic glass elements to ensure performance even in very fast scopes.

Even basic scopes can benefit from decent quality earpieces although obviously there is a balance to strike, an 8" dob with basic eyepiece will show more than an st80 with an ethos in it!

[vlaiv]

There is a thing called Pareto principle, or 20/80 rule.

It is a sort of general rule that describes various scenarios and although it is not "law" of nature, some things tend to behave that way (more or less).

In astronomy it would be applied like this: you can get 80% of performance for 20% of money. To reach remaining 20% of performance you need to spend additional 80% of money.

That applies both for telescopes and accessories. Is 5000e scope x5 better than 1000e scope? No, probably only 20% better

Once we understand this, then it is also important to understand that both scopes and accessories have different "life paths". So scope may stay with you while you are changing accessories, or some accessory can stay with you while you change your scopes. Good thing is that you can use various combinations of scopes and accessories. People place different importance to different elements. Some like comfortable eyepieces, while other prefer certain type of scope. In this regard, I don't think that there is overkill.

On the other hand I do think that some accessories are "overpriced" (well nothing is overpriced, and if you find that something is overpriced then view it as a business opportunity - can you make it cheaper and still turn profit?).

I tend to get annoyed with prices of various astrophotography extension / conversion rings and bits. C'mon, 30e for a piece of pipe with threads on both ends???

[John]

This thread shows how many astronomers own a number of scopes:

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/316123-poll-how-many-telescopes-do-you-have/

If you build a quality set of eyepieces that can serve a number of different scopes and stay with you for a long time, then the cost ratio gets somewhat better balanced.

I agree with vlaiv and the 80/20 principle but astronomy is an exacting hobby on both the astronomer and the kit. Once you have seen the main "show piece" objects and start to hunt down the more challenging stuff, pushing the observer and kit towards it's limits, then 20% of performance can make a real difference and becomes desireable despite the cost.

[happy-kat]

All my telescopes many would consider beginner but I'm happy to spend wisely and use good accessories often buying second hand or reduced customer returns. If we ever get good quality telescope then there's accessories already to use with it. So I don't use what the telescope cost to buy as the bench mark but rather do I need it and is the price great and will I get mileage from it.

[lenscap]

I thought of making a  general price list for the very basic odds & ends;

Piece of metal with one hole £20

Piece of metal with 2 holes £40

Metal with screw thread £80

If anodised double these amounts ?

[JohnSadlerAstro]

This is what irritates me the most--pretty much all the accessories are just machined steel to within a few tenths of a millimetre, with a screw in them. How expensive are they to make! It may be because demand is quite low, so mark-ups have to be high to make profit.

John

[25585]

My eyepieces total cost if/when bought new equals or exceeds my expenditure on telescopes. 

But certain eyepieces for me are what make visual astronomy enjoyable. Unlike camera lenses they are not exclusive to a particular system. They last and outlast Newtonians at least. Probably outlast my eyesight as well. 

Lowest expenditure has been on mounts. Why Dobsonians are good value. As far as alt az mounts, the choices are limited and limiting (unlike tripods). Prices for simple low tech but heavier weight bearing solid construction mounts above small scope class leaps into high figures, with seemingly no middle ground. 

[pete_l]

2 hours ago, JohnSadlerAstro said:

This is what irritates me the most--pretty much all the accessories are just machined steel to within a few tenths of a millimetre, with a screw in them. How expensive are they to make! It may be because demand is quite low, so mark-ups have to be high to make profit.

John

If each one is made to order then the cost will inevitably be high. You have to factor in not just the time it takes, but the time to set up the tools, the time needed to order the material, the cost of the tools and their depreciation, the cost of the workshop, rates, insurance, security, electricity, and other things like maintaining the website or whatever other advertising (and without any advertising there will be no business).

If your business costs £50,000 a year with all these costs and you only get orders for 5 items a day, that will be 1,100 pieces a year when holidays are included. So they're going to cost £45 each. And with VAT on top, plus postage, you're looking at £60 to the buyer.

[niallk]

I bought a 250px as a first scope (€550) - and added a TS plossl kit (~€150).

The scope was money well spent.

The eyepiece kit, not so!

I then took the plunge after 1.5yr and purchased a TeleVue 13mm T6 Nagler (€350) - more that half the cost of the scope!  But WOW... much better than the €150 kit.

To me, it was definitely worth it - first light on M42 was memorable, seeing strong green colour for the first time (and every time since with that EP).  The wide angle views - gorgeous.  Nearly 8yrs later, that EP is still used, and cherished.  Buy quality once and it lasts... nowadays there are many less expensive excellent wide angle EPs going by other people's reports that cost less.

[25585]

One single good eyepiece, & perhaps a Barlow, can make a good kit. 

How many budding enthusiasts have dropped the hobby due to poor eye pieces?!

The OE kit stuff, including many finders, are usually unsaleable by themselves. 

 

[Paz]

I've had a quick think and for a smallish scope on an equatorial mount if new prices are used for me it would be maybe 25% scope, 25% mount, and 50% for other bits I.e. eyepieces, finders, filters, upgraded focuser, dew shield, tracking motor, diagonal, etc.

[25585]

Of all I consider way over-priced, high end bino viewers are at the top . 

Compare what a TV, Mk 5 & rival models cost, to binoculars. A pair of Vixen & other 90 degree ED bins is in the same price range with optics, mount, interchangeable eye piece option, for the same price for a pair of prisms in a can with hollow tubes at each end. Then there is all the adjustment hardware & GPC to buy in addition. So their cost creeps closer to £2K. 

And binoviewers it is said are best suited for solar system objects, dim down whatever is seen through them as a general rule and so less good for fainter DSOs. 

There are specialist uses that big bins will not cover, so a good bv pair will be worth its value to a user. But my opinion generally is that bino viewer prices, especially  when compared to equivalentally priced binoculars, not a good spend. 

 

[scarp15]

I expect that it will depend upon how passionate you become to this, as with any hobby, interest, pursuit. There is a thriving second hand market, making combined options to purchase at retail and second hand, becomes more cost effective for investing in specialist high end high quality, innovative products. For occasional casual observing it probably does not matter. However if like myself, as an example, you have just completed a tiring week at work, the forecast is looking good, it is winter so need to be prepared for cold conditions, you have an 'aspirational' agenda to include some quite challenging objectives. So you take off to a dark site, perhaps an hour plus journey from home, once there, you expect the best from your own ability and equally you want to access the best in equipment to enable this to become possible. Perhaps arriving home shattered at 3 or 4am, logic might have been to have a quiet night in with a beer from the fridge, but where is the 'logic' when you do have a passion.       

[25585]

Never been that passionate or aspirational on a hobby or in a job. I am more the whimsical relaxed opportunistic type stargazer. See what can be seen, buy good kit to make it more pleasant and easy sure, but never too hung up on it all.   

[sloz1664]

It's the same for most hobbies. The pareto rule applies if you want high end. These discussions are mostly centred around visual. Don't mention astro photgraphy. That's on a different cost plane altogether. ?

Steve

[scarp15]

5 hours ago, 25585 said:

Never been that passionate or aspirational on a hobby or in a job. I am more the whimsical relaxed opportunistic type stargazer. See what can be seen, buy good kit to make it more pleasant and easy sure, but never too hung up on it all.   

Perhaps the word I ought of used is motivation, work not unlike a hobby is a commitment, yet depending on the nature of your job can also be (sometimes at least) motivational. Definitely not something to get hung up on, it requires time measured in years, gradually evolving, making changes to equipment. 

[25585]

Buying new equipment is motivating, for a while anyway. Maybe in the UK it's a big part, see what x extra improves.

Demotivation is what supplies the 2nd hand market with good condition gear, disillusion too.

[JohnSadlerAstro]

5 hours ago, sloz1664 said:

It's the same for most hobbies. The pareto rule applies if you want high end. These discussions are mostly centred around visual. Don't mention astro photgraphy. That's on a different cost plane altogether. ?

Too true. And to be quite honest, I have found I get (almost ) as much enjoyment out of visual observing as I do with AP.

I still wouldn't get rid of one bit of AP kit, though!  

John