Imaging just keeps getting more complicated!

[Stub Mandrel]

Against all odds tonight looks like being clear for long enough for a test on M13, if nothing else!

I've set up the HEQ5, and have managed to get CdC, EQMod and PHD2 all speaking to each other. What with using Sharpcap for guidescope focusing and all the background installations my head is spinning and I have new respect for my Toshiba laptop.

PHD2 worried me at first, initially failing to connect to the mount. Had to change the calibration step - the calculator gives me a different value now, i must have put something in wrong before. Calibration went quicker than usual. Guide assistant went OK and showed much less backlash.

After tweaking the mount a few days ago (and fswapping in a new-style polarscope), I've managed to get backlash down. At first sight the guide graph looked awful, but then I noticed it was at 1" full scale on the x-axis. I've got an RMS value of 0.9", the best I ever got with the EQ3 was 0.8" and that was only occasionally, usually it was 1.4" on a good evening. I suspect it will improve as it gets darker. What I hope I've left behind are the big DEC excursions that ruined the graph every so often and gave me poor subs.

Guidescope,and main scope are nicely collimated, I can see M13 in PHD2 with 1s exposures ?

I did try adding APT into the mix, but having practised using Ascom simulator for the mount, it's refusing to find the real one and just starts another instance of EQmod ?

APT can be for another evening and if I can get it to work I will try dithering.

Already a little voice is whispering Astrotortilla in my ear, although I'm not 100% sure what the benefits are... and there's fine tuning my PA.

My aim is to get the hang of everything and sort out a workflow, so I have a fighting chance of going to a dark site and getting some decent results.

[Sunshine]

Many times ive wondered if imaging DSO's is actually fun?? when I come home from a hard days work I can't see myself fiddling with 3 programs and multiple cables, not to mention setup time and post work.

Seems like more work to me, I am dipping my feet in the water and enjoying it greatly with a planetary cam for now, but the minute it starts getting to complicated i'll hurl it into the pond behind my yard lol.

 

[Dragon_Astro]

Tell me about it, I've found the more software bits and bobs I've added to my imaging, like platesolving etc the more is going wrong and I'm wasting nights sorting out software issues.

very tempted to cancel my order of a cooled CMOS camera and just go back to using my modded dslr and byeos, no faffing about with gain, black offset and dropped frames in Sharpcap.

Just get the good old guiding and dithering going, make a coffee while the laptop does its thing!

[pete_l]

3 hours ago, Sunshine said:

Many times ive wondered if imaging DSO's is actually fun??

When everything works as it should, it's actually quite boring. You turn on the mount (that you had left in the home position last session), fire up your ASCOM enabled control program, start PHD2, choose your target, wait until the scope slews and PHD2 locks-on, dial up the number of images you want, the duration, the scheme for lights, darks, etc. and then sit back as it all just happens.

Then you wait several hours until the activities complete (or go to bed), collect your data and shut everything down. If it was possible to automate the obsy opening up, shutting down and the image processing then there would be almost no need to have any involvement at all.

The trick is to get a set-up that works and then MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGES WHATSOEVER. Don't allow any software updates of any kind, for any reason, ever. Never unplug anything or change the port that any equipment is connected to. Never move any cables (I have found cable routing / dangling to be the most frequent reason why tracking "goes funny") and resist the urge to "tweak".

[Stub Mandrel]

I am thinking that it's important to decide what contribution any element of the puzzle contributes.

I'm certainly unsure what the real benefits of plate solving are at my level of imaging and skies - does it take the fun out of finding a target? Does it mean my images are a few pixels larger when I stack two nights data?

Certainly I will be doing some cable run improvements - that's the sort of thing I enjoy. And maybe I can get rid of some more of those four pixels of backlash.

At the moment I  have to swap camera batteries every 1.5 -  2 hours, also with my limited sky I need to change target most nights. I think without that engagement it would get rather boring. Next time I get a good night I will set up the EQ3 for visual (gasp!) I look forward to feeling that I'm not wasting imaging time and being able to take my time with visual targets.

It would be lovely to have a long run of dark, clear evenings next autumn to use a couple of hours of long twilight to 'play' with settings without feeling it was stopping me imaging.

[PeterCPC]

I try to use the minimum amount of software. So I use the handset - no EQMod No Platesolve No ASCOM. Use the handset to goto target then either BYEOS or Sharpcap. Simples?

Peter

[carastro]

Quote

I try to use the minimum amount of software. So I use the handset 

I agree, the more cables and software running, the more USBs you need and more things to go wrong. I have EQMod but rarely use it as I find it is just as easy to use the handset, and don't have enough USB ports anyway, Hubs can be very unreliable I have found even using the most highly recommended one.  I don't use platesolving as I don't think I am clever enough to even set it up in the first place, and it probably wouldn't work with the software I use anyway.  

You don't need all this fancy software to get images, I use handset, PHD and simple capture software, 3 USBs and manage just fine.  If you're a whizz with IT, then fine, add all the fancy stuff, but for those of us who want to keep it simple, - YOU CAN! 

Carole 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

The slippery slope is guiding. Long exposures mean guiding, which means laptop, which means 'might as well use...'

TBH I only had two USBs working last night for mount and guide cam.

I would like to dither (although I question those who say its a must I want to see if it makes a differnece) I plan to plug the DSLR in as well, but hopefully that's all the connections I need... (automated focuser and filter wheel anyone........)

 

[carastro]

I used to dither when I had a DSLR and used APT, but since I bought my Mono CCD camera I have been using Artemis capture software which I love, and unless I want to spend out for an Atik guide camera, I can't dither as Artemis will only dither with Atik cameras.  so I don't bother, I occasionally switch guiding off and let the image drift to create a sort of manual dither.

I could go back to APT to do dithering, but I so love Artemis, I am reluctant to change.

Carole 

[PeterCPC]

I use BYEOS and the dithering is so easy and makes a huge difference to noise in long exposures.

Peter

[Dragon_Astro]

When using the dslr I used to dither, it got rid of that red/green mottle pattern in the background Sky. Dithering also helps get rid of any noise when using a CMOS cam.

I only use plate solving because my goto aren't always that accurate, no matter how many sync point I put down in CdC.

[chrisshillito]

13 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I did try adding APT into the mix, but having practised using Ascom simulator for the mount, it's refusing to find the real one and just starts another instance of EQmod ?

That will be because APT is running with different windows rights to the other applications using EQMOD. Install/Run all software with the same level of rights and you will only get one instance of EQMOD appearing.

Chris.

[Stub Mandrel]

2 hours ago, chrisshillito said:

That will be because APT is running with different windows rights to the other applications using EQMOD. Install/Run all software with the same level of rights and you will only get one instance of EQMOD appearing.

Chris.

I didn't give it admin rights when installing, how do I check?

Or if I reinstall, how do I stop it doing that?

[tomato]

For now, while I still have to work for a living, I am a strong advocate for keeping it simple. I do use PHD for guiding but I don't use an integrated control package, don't plate solve and don't dither. The weather windows are so few and far between in the UK that I'll rarely be on the same target more than 2 nights running, which I can just align manually. Sure, I'll have to crop the images a bit in post processing, but my preffered  targets are generally small and compact so no problem there.

It takes me about an hour to set up the rig, but from the point I align the scope on a reference star to starting the imaging run is usually about 20 minutes.

I am really looking forward to getting into all of the bells and whistles of imaging when I retire but for now, I always want to get an image I can show my family and friends from every session under a clear sky.

[Tomatobro]

I learned early on that asking one (second hand) laptop to do everything was not reliable. I use one laptop to run CdC, ascom, Hitec dc focuser and PHD via a single USB 10 mtr cable into a scope mounted powered 7 port powered USB module. Another laptop controls my Atik 314L via Atik air using a raspberry pi. Setup is fast and reliable.

Only two cables run to the scope from my shed. A 12 volt 20 amp supply (actually set at 13 volts to allow for the cable volt drop) and a USB cable. It works so well I am reluctant to go to the next stage but sooner or later a new camera will force a change. The soon to be released ZWO control module also looks interesting.

 

 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

food for thought

[wimvb]

21 hours ago, Sunshine said:

the minute it starts getting to complicated i'll hurl it into the pond behind my yard lol.

Don't. When that day comes, send me a pm instead. 

There are times when you think why bother. But then that perfect night occurs with crisp clear skies and a flat guide graph (and no, not guiding on a hot pixel). Then it's all worth it. I think that being in this hobby, you have to appreciate the tinkering and problem solving as much as processing the catch of the night. Otherwise it can be veeeery frustrating.

12 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

The slippery slope is guiding. Long exposures mean guiding, which means laptop, which means 'might as well use...'

I've been thinking of simplifying my setup, not using plate solving and INDI. Maybe get a Lacerta Mgen for guiding, and use the handcontroller for goto.

But I have a small sensor, so I need to align accurately from one night to the next. And using INDI, I basically only have two programs running: Ekos/Kstars on my laptop and PHD on a Raspberry pi (which is also controlled by Ekos). The INDI server runs on the RPi in the background. At least I have one program that controls everything, rather than multiple programs that only do one thing. But it would be simpler without guiding.

My long term goal is to have a permanent setup, so I don't have to haul out my equipment everytime there is a gap in the clouds, just to see the platesolving fail due to clouds moving in again.

[chrisshillito]

20 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I didn't give it admin rights when installing, how do I check?

Or if I reinstall, how do I stop it doing that?

Maybe PHD is running with admin rights then - the issue is that the "clients" of EQMOD are running with diffrent rights. Admin rights shouldn'd be necessary so long as everything is running at the same level. As for checking what rights things has that ma be dependent on which version of windos you're using. With windows 10 you can get the task manager "details" tab to show an "elevated" status of the apps runnig - if elevated they are runnig with admin rights.

To try things out you can always right click on the app exe and "Run As administrator" and see if it makes any difference. If changing APT to run as admin sorts out the problem then that would imply the phd is already runnig as admin by default.

[Stub Mandrel]

34 minutes ago, chrisshillito said:

see if it makes any difference.

I think the problem was simpler - I   had the mount set as Ascom simulator and couldn't find the dialogue to change it out in the dark... I've set it to HEQ5/6 now so hopefully it will work.

[ollypenrice]

The easiest way to make it easier is, of course, to have a permanent setup.

If this is not possible, give serious thought to joining my imaging dinosaur's club. We are very happy dinosaurs, honest!

Club rules include those already wisely presented by the two Peters above, especially not changing anything, ever, and labelling USB ports. I would summarize the key rules thus: Don't do anything via software or gadgets if you can do it by hand  and Don't add any gadget intended to 'simplify' your system.  Avoid at all costs any kind of USB hub. An extra couple of cables are simpler than a box of electronics.

If I could buy a sealed 5 position manual filterwheel I would do so. I focus by hand. I frame by looking at the picture. On the dual rig I run two PCs rather than stress a single one and its operator! I don't have enough fingers to count the cables on our dual rig, nor to count the number of USB hubs I've removed and replaced on the robotic setups I host.

And remember that software failures outnumber mechanical ones by at least a thousand to one. (Source: Dept of Instant Statistics.)

Olly

[carastro]

Quote

my imaging dinosaur's club

I am a member of this club Olly, I do all these things:

Quote

Don't do anything via software or gadgets if you can do it by hand

Quote

Avoid at all costs any kind of USB hub.

I have tried so many hubs and have problems with all of them.  If I run my dual rig I use two laptops.

I use a handset which I think makes me a dinosaur even more than you as I recall using software to control the mount when I came to your place.  I focus by hand, find the target by GOTO and like you centre it by eye, I don't dither (I would like to but it doesn't work on Artemis unless I replace my guide camera with an Atik one, maybe I will do that if my QHY5 gives up). 

Carole 

 

[andrew s]

31 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

And remember that software failures outnumber mechanical ones by at least a thousand to one. (Source: Dept of Instant Statistics.)

Olly

As they say 99% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

 

31 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

The easiest way to make it easier is, of course, to have a permanent setup.

This is essential if you decide to go for as automated operation as possible.

While I don't image I can run a fully automated session (excluding opening and closing the obs roof) but just giving the software (custom Python Program) a list of target co-ordinates and exposure times and press run. The software tells The Sky X where to sent the mount/telescope and the cameras what exposures to make. This includes centering the star on a 75 micron hole and guiding. 

Given my few and far between clear nights it is the only way not to waste time (for me at least) however...

31 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

especially not changing anything, ever, and labelling USB ports.

this is very good advice.

Andrew s

[PeterCPC]

Another member of the imaging dinosaur's club here. ?

Peter

[andrew s]

32 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

Don't add any gadget intended to 'simplify' your system.

So you all guide by eye using the hand paddle ? 

Just checking?

Regards Andrew

[PeterCPC]

I guide with PHD.

Peter