Amateur astronomer or recreational sky observer

[LukeSkywatcher]

"By buying stuff (some of us are definitely professional at that!) we are raising awareness and increasing the popularity of the hobby".

Sorry but i cant see how a private transaction between myself and an astro gear retailer raises awareness or makes a difference to the popularity of astronomy.

[Stub Mandrel]

On 07/05/2018 at 19:11, jambouk said:

What are you?

I don't know, but I suspect Thomas R. Willams may be a 'snob'...

[Stub Mandrel]

On 07/05/2018 at 19:35, David Levi said:

I'm inclined to agree with the definitions but recreational sky observer is a bit of a mouthful. Perhaps something like recreational astronomer would be better.

The whole thing smacks of the way that some 'professional' engineers resent hobbyists calling themselves 'model engineers', when many of the latter can show greater skills and ingenuity than many professionals who have never designed and made an entire mechanism from scratch.

Frankly I find it rather pathetic the way that some people will try and denigrate the participation of some people in their field, rather than celebrate it. Any field of endeavour starts with gentle slopes and rises to high peaks. Why the need to draw artificial lines to separate those who walk the fields from those who scale the highest mountains? We all start at the bottom and there's no rule that separates us off according to how high we choose to go.

Astronomers are those who practice astronomy.

Astronomy is the study of the heavens; study, not research although research is certainly part of the science. No-one ever said that study excludes treading paths previously trodden.

Amateur or professional depends on whether or not you do your astronomy for reward, nothing else. If your observation goes anywhere beyond just wanting to see 'pretty pictures' - if you are actually learning anything about what the objects you see or image are and trying to understand what they are doing, then you are an astronomer. If some folks are undertaking research, no matter how elementary, that is brilliant, but they don't need weasel words to set themselves above others.

[JeremyS]

17 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I don't know, but I suspect Thomas R. Willams may be a 'snob'...

I am not entering the discussion, but I have met Thomas R Williams and he is a gentleman and a well respected historian of astronomy.

[Stub Mandrel]

18 minutes ago, JeremyS said:

I am not entering the discussion, but I have met Thomas R Williams and he is a gentleman and a well respected historian of astronomy.

OK, I was perhaps being unfair; I think that discriminating between various 'grades' of hobby astronomer smacks of intellectual elitism or snobbery, but that doesn't make the person who does so a snob per se.

The Royal Astronomical Society doesn't seem to need to make any such distinction:

https://www.ras.org.uk/education-and-careers/for-everyone/92-getting-started-in-astronomy

 

[tooth_dr]

On 08/05/2018 at 07:52, LukeSkywatcher said:

Funny thought. If you work in a public observatory and collect tickets from people attending say a show (you know the type. You sit down and look up at projected images on the ceiling). Would this make you a professional astronomer?. You are working with and around astronomy and getting paid to do so. 

It wouldn’t. My receptionist doesn’t call herself a dentist just because she works with patients in a dental practice all day every day!

[LukeSkywatcher]

1 hour ago, tooth_dr said:

It wouldn’t. My receptionist doesn’t call herself a dentist just because she works with patients in a dental practice all day every day!

Sorry. Not tongue in cheek enough?.

[tooth_dr]

1 hour ago, LukeSkywatcher said:

Sorry. Not tongue in cheek enough?.

Ah yes I see, I was quickly reading the thread.  (as you were)

[Stub Mandrel]

To bring this thread up again, I found this refgernce on Wikipedia:

https://www.seriousleisure.net/

The basic concept distinguishes three forms of serious leisure:

Amateur pursuits - activities which have a professional counterpart (WP give astronomy and playing musical instruments as specific examples)

Hobbies - WP uses the distinctions " collecting, making and tinkering (like embroidery and car restoration), activity participation (like fishing and singing), sports and games, and liberal-arts hobbies (like languages, cuisine, literature)."

Volunteering - which is unpaid work for a cause or organisation.

It certainly seems the  'astronomy' is one of the perfect models for an amateur pursuit.

 

The 'concepts' page on the website above has the following, astronomy for SGL members certainly seems to count as serious leisure:

Serious leisure is further distinguished from casual leisure by six characteristics found exclusively or in highly elaborated form only in the first. These characteristics are: 1) need to persevere at the activity, 2) availability of a leisure career, 3) need to put in effort to gain skill and knowledge, 4) realization of various special benefits, 5) unique ethos and social world, and 6) an attractive personal and social identity. 
 
Casual leisure is immediately, intrinsically rewarding; and it is a relatively short-lived, pleasurable activity requiring little or no special training to enjoy it. It is fundamentally hedonic; it is engaged in for the significant level of pure enjoyment, or pleasure, found there (Stebbins, 1997). It is also the classificatory home of much of the deviant leisure discussed by Rojek (1997, pp. 392-393). Among its types are: play (including dabbling), relaxation (e.g., sitting, napping, strolling), passive entertainment (e.g., TV, books, recorded music), active entertainment (e.g., games of chance, party games), sociable conversation, and sensory stimulation (e.g., sex, eating, drinking). Casual volunteering is also a type of casual leisure as is "pleasurable aerobic activity," or casual leisure requiring effort sufficient to cause marked increase in respiration and heart rate (Stebbins, 2004a). Casual leisure is considerably less substantial, and offers no career of the sort just described for serious leisure. In broad, colloquial language casual leisure, hedonic as it is, could serve as the scientific term for doing what comes naturally. Yet, despite the seemingly trivial nature of most casual leisure, I argue elsewhere that it is nonetheless important in personal and social life (Stebbins, 2001b). 
 
Project-based leisure is a short-term, moderately complicated, either one-shot or occasional, though infrequent, creative undertaking carried out in free time (Stebbins, 2005). Such leisure involves considerable planning, effort, and sometimes skill or knowledge, but for all that is not of the serious variety nor intended to develop into such. Nor is it casual leisure. The adjective "occasional" describes widely spaced undertakings for such regular occasions as arts festivals, sports events, religious holidays, individual birthdays, or national holidays while "creative" stresses that the undertaking results in something new or different, showing imagination, skill, or knowledge. Although most projects would appear to be continuously pursued until completed, it is conceivable that some might be interrupted for several weeks, months, even years. 

[Gina]

Hobby/pastime - astronomy.  Sub class - astro-photography.

[saac]

I really don't have any difficulty with the author's  description of amateur.  It's a definition that he uses to set the boundaries of his research " the contribution of amateurs to astronomy".  His definition is relevant only to his paper, and its entirely legitimate for him to define what he means by amateur in order to make the assessment. Outside of his paper (book) his definition holds no meaning.  Anyway the only contribution I've made to astronomy, whatever I'm called, is supporting astronomy suppliers  

Jim   

[tomato]

I would like to call myself a stargazer with a major interest in Astrophotography, but alas, like with most activities these days, it just makes me a screen gazer.

[LukeSkywatcher]

My public health nurse was here the other day and she saw my new telescope in the lounge (not this lounge, but my lounge). She said "Oh you're into stargazing?".

So its unofficially official.........the average lay person thinks of us as stargazers.

I dont like that term because I dont gaze at stars. 

[JeremyS]

36 minutes ago, LukeSkywatcher said:

...the average lay person thinks of us as stargazers.

I dont like that term because I dont gaze at stars. 

Not an expression I like either! I sounds as if we're aimless at best or brain dead at worst. I much prefer "amateur astronomer.". Can we change the "SG" in SGL?  ?

 

[Gina]

AAL - Amateur Astronomer's Lounge ??

[andrew s]

20 minutes ago, JeremyS said:

Not an expression I like either! I sounds as if we're aimless at best or brain dead at worst. I much prefer "amateur astronomer.". Can we change the "SG" in SGL?  ?

 

So that would make it Alcoholics Annonomous Lounge?

[LukeSkywatcher]

16 minutes ago, andrew s said:

So that would make it Alcoholics Annonomous Lounge?

Given the amount of cloudy nights we have, that could apply also.

[LukeSkywatcher]

40 minutes ago, JeremyS said:

Not an expression I like either! I sounds as if we're aimless at best or brain dead at worst. I much prefer "amateur astronomer.". Can we change the "SG" in SGL?  ?

 

Im always aimless when observing. I never plan a session. I dont use RDF's or finder scopes. I just take a wander around the universe and if i come across something interesting, i'll stay a while.

[Demonperformer]

It's also the FTSE ticker code for Anglo-American plc ... far too confusing.

42 minutes ago, JeremyS said:

sounds as if we're aimless at best or brain dead at worst.

I can do no better than quote Paul: "Given the amount of cloudy nights we have, that could apply also"!

[LukeSkywatcher]

14 minutes ago, LukeSkywatcher said:

Given the amount of cloudy nights we have, that could apply also.

As Master Yoda would say:

"Clouds lead to drink. Drink leads to online shopping. Online shopping, you must".

 

[Demonperformer]

2 minutes ago, LukeSkywatcher said:

As Master Yoda would say:

"Clouds lead to drink. Drink leads to online shopping. Online shopping, you must".

 

Which episode was that in? The Return of the Last Phantom Stargazer?

[LukeSkywatcher]

2 hours ago, Demonperformer said:

Which episode was that in? The Return of the Last Phantom Stargazer?

The deleted scenes of that one on the extra disc on BR

[CentaurZ]

Prior to the nineteenth century, practically all astronomers were amateurs who earned their livings in other domains. Nowadays, virtually all astronomers are again amateurs, since professionals want to call themselves astrophysicists. I consider my European email friends Jean Meeus and Aldo Vitagliano to be astronomers. Jean wrote many books on celestial mechanics, and Aldo wrote the astronomical numerical integration program Solex. But to earn meaningful livings before they retired, Jean was a meteorologist and Aldo was a chemistry professor.

[DAVE AMENDALL]

You could start off as a recreational observer looking through a telescope. Then promote to Amateur Astronomer looking through a telescope  and then progress to Proffesional Astronomer who looks through a telescope now and again. And then to Astro Physicist who never looks through a telescope at all.................Dave

[andrew s]

I think I am both. I do AA with my automated spectroscopy and while that is looking after itself I SG and admire the night sky with naked eye of binoculars (or watch the telly and read about astronomy/spectroscopy/physics).

Win-win

Regards Andrew