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DSLR vs CCD/CMOS


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Evening all :hello:

I'm sure this has been asked many times before however I am curious as to what people think.

So, if I asked you to go buy a camera for astro use for me, what would you buy and why.
(budget around £600. £1k absolute ceiling - Wife says so!) :) 

Thanks for looking.
Pete.

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I started using my (not inexpensive) Canon 70D dslr - which is my only camera - and was not too happy the first time I fetched it in afer a long night of imaging only to discover it was soaked/dripping with dew. That was enough to convince me to buy a osc ccd. Now I know lots of people rubbish osc cameras but with the weather we get here, or lack of clear skies, it has provided me with some very pleasing results. I know it has limitations but it works very well with my ED80DS.

Over the last 20 months i have progressed to a mono ccd and filters and a second shorter focal length scope for bigger targets (nebula) but I still use the osc when imaging galaxies.

HTH :)

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57 minutes ago, Redscouse said:

Evening all :hello:

I'm sure this has been asked many times before however I am curious as to what people think.

So, if I asked you to go buy a camera for astro use for me, what would you buy and why.
(budget around £600. £1k absolute ceiling - Wife says so!) :) 

Thanks for looking.
Pete.

What do you want to take images of? Nebula, galaxies, planets, the moon the sun???? Not all cameras are suited to all these applications.

 

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To get the most out of your budget, consider the 2nd hand market. When making your decision, look at field of view (sensor size) and your local light pollution. There's no use chasing large nebulae with a small sensor and long focal length.

Under light polluted skies, mono (rgb) can perform better than osc. Mono is also easier if you plan to try narrowband imaging.

If you decide for a dedicated astrocam, cooling is a great advantage, and well worth the extra investment.

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Hi Pete, thanks for the post. Looking at your signature I'd not spend the money right now, no really. I'd take the opportunity to consider what most attracted me to imaging, then draw up an acquisition plan for necessary purchases over a few years. £1k won't go far I'm afraid.

Bank the money, explain things to your other half and take her out for a meal with a little of the money as a thank you for being so understanding about your plans.

Cheers,
Steve

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I wouldn't 'rubbish' DSLRs or one shot colour cameras but dedicated astronomical cameras are certainly the best for the job. Your budget would buy an older CCD camera and, perhaps, a second hand manual filter wheel (perfectly good) and filters. However, OSC does save the cost of filters.

Are you imaging from a reasonably dark site or in significant light pollution? If in LP you will get incomparably better results from a mono camera and narrowband filters. While an OSC camera can shoot narrowband it is excruciatingly inefficient compared with a mono.

Choose OSC over mono by all means, but do so for the right reasons. Don't do so because OSC is faster. It isn't, it's slower. This is the Heart Nebula in two hours, 20 mins per colour and an hour in Ha from a mono CCD. I don't believe an OSC could get this far in two hours.

2%20Hour%20Heart%20web-L.jpg

CMOS cameras are brilliant value new but still probably over budget and scarce on the used market. I think I'd be looking for a used CCD, perhaps with the Sony 285 chip such as an Atik 314L.

Saving for a bit longer would make sense to me too.

Olly

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Personally I think 'save up for something better' is the most demotivating message you can give anyone wanting to try AP.

 

My advice is get a second hand DSLR, a 600D is well within your budget, a 450D or 1000D rather less. Astro modded ones appear in the classifieds here from time to time and I recently got a modded 1000D as a second camera for £100.

Use this to learn the craft and keep your change for accessories/software you need or future upgrades.

You may find upgrading your mount or scope will bring greater improvements than a better camera or decide you simply don't want the added complexity of RGB imaging - for my first year or two I just spent an hour per target bagging as many galaxies clusters etc. as possible and had great fun. I started with a 10D which is an ancient 10-bit DSLR so you can use ANYTHING with bulb mode.

 

I've decided that I want to stick with DSLR/OSC for deep space targets because that suits how I want to do my imaging, but I'm not up for an APOD anytime soon... to get better results darker skies will make more difference than a better camera and that probably means a synscan equipped mount to simplify my setup.

I've also decided to get serious about planetary imaging and this year I will be diving into using a filter wheel with a mono planetary cam (which is cheap as it can be small, uncooled chip). Damian Peach look out ;-)

 

To summarise, get a cheap secondhand DSLR and get started.

Do save up for what you need, but use the DSLR to get the hang of imaging and help decide what targets you want to focus on.

 

 

 

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I started my AP journey nearly 6 years ago using my Nikon D90 DSLR, progressing to a modified Canon 600D about 2 years later, then about 18 months ago I purchased a pre-owned mono QSI583wsg-5. I recommend this path and certaining if you already own a DSLR there is lots that you can do using just stock lenses. I sold my Canon 600D the back end of last year, but already there have been a few times when I wish that I'd kept it, when I've been try to get some quick grabs on open clusters close to the horizon in less than ideal seeing when the QSI didn't get the job done 'fast' enough. Please note that I agree with Ollypenrice.....

1 hour ago, ollypenrice said:

Don't do so because OSC is faster. It isn't, it's slower. This is the Heart Nebula in two hours, 20 mins per colour and an hour in Ha from a mono CCD. I don't believe an OSC could get this far in two hours.

BUT...

several times this year I failed to get a colour image because I lost the sky before I got all the RGB data even when I was shooting just 3x10 mins each filter, that's 1.5 hours total and after getting all the R and G I lost the sky before getting any B. For one of the targets it took me another 2 weeks to get just the 30 mins (3x10) B, but if I'd been using a DSLR then I would have had 1 hour colour data and would have processed that and moved on. Sure I could have shot fewer than 3 and/or shorter subs on each filter, but in reality you're hardly ever going to set up to do that.

My advice is save yourself the frustration, greater expense and complexity of mono CCD imaging, by getting a pre-owned (modified if possible) 600D, or similar and start to learn the hobby. There is a lot to learn in post processing, much of which you will achieve using data collected with a DSLR camera. With £600 to spend you'll get a good modified camera + adapters and maybe an Ha clip in filter for targets like the Heart and Soul with possibly enough left over for a cheap guidescope and camera so that you can shoot longer exposures. If the bug really bites you then get a mono CCD camera down the line and move the DSLR on if you need the funds for the upgrade.

Good luck, Geof

 

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If I was spending £600 - £1000 of your money, I would get a 2nd hand Mono Atik314L (414L) - you can pick the Atik314Ls up now for around £650.  Then you'd need some filters and a filterwheel.  Again I'd try to pick them up 2nd hand if possible.  

Carole 

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49 minutes ago, geoflewis said:

BUT...

I would consider getting L,R,B first as you can always use a synthetic green if you have to.

@Redscouse If you really want to get something now I would suggest a moddified canon. If you buy wisely then you can use this whilst you save a few more pennies for a dedicated ccd/cmos and sell it at cost or minimal lose as they do hold their price very well. It would be the cheapest option and give you the experience needed when you upgrade. You might even stick with the dslr, many here have.

If you go with a ccd/cmos try and get mono. Yes it will annoy you if you cannot complete a target but I feel the mono is best value when it come to real estate, I like to know that all of my sensor is gather the data that I want it to at 100% capacity.

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32 minutes ago, spillage said:
1 hour ago, geoflewis said:

 

I would consider getting L,R,B first as you can always use a synthetic green if you have to.

I didn’t even try to shoot any L, but please could you explain how to create/use a synthetic green as that’s a new one to me....

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4 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Personally I think 'save up for something better' is the most demotivating message you can give anyone wanting to try AP.

 

My advice is get a second hand DSLR, a 600D is well within your budget, a 450D or 1000D rather less. Astro modded ones appear in the classifieds here from time to time and I recently got a modded 1000D as a second camera for £100.

Use this to learn the craft and keep your change for accessories/software you need or future upgrades.

You may find upgrading your mount or scope will bring greater improvements than a better camera or decide you simply don't want the added complexity of RGB imaging - for my first year or two I just spent an hour per target bagging as many galaxies clusters etc. as possible and had great fun. I started with a 10D which is an ancient 10-bit DSLR so you can use ANYTHING with bulb mode.

 

I've decided that I want to stick with DSLR/OSC for deep space targets because that suits how I want to do my imaging, but I'm not up for an APOD anytime soon... to get better results darker skies will make more difference than a better camera and that probably means a synscan equipped mount to simplify my setup.

I've also decided to get serious about planetary imaging and this year I will be diving into using a filter wheel with a mono planetary cam (which is cheap as it can be small, uncooled chip). Damian Peach look out ;-)

 

To summarise, get a cheap secondhand DSLR and get started.

Do save up for what you need, but use the DSLR to get the hang of imaging and help decide what targets you want to focus on.

 

 

 

This is probably the best answer (in my opinion) in this thread. It's all well and good people telling you to save and get a mono ccd/cmos camera but if your still relatively new to the hobby then this can be very frustrating and put you off. 

Yes mono is faster and better if you know what your doing, how to use it efficiently and have plenty clear nights.

I'd take heed of what stub said and see where you'll be in a year or two, then make a decision 

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3 hours ago, geoflewis said:

I started my AP journey nearly 6 years ago using my Nikon D90 DSLR, progressing to a modified Canon 600D about 2 years later, then about 18 months ago I purchased a pre-owned mono QSI583wsg-5. I recommend this path and certaining if you already own a DSLR there is lots that you can do using just stock lenses. I sold my Canon 600D the back end of last year, but already there have been a few times when I wish that I'd kept it, when I've been try to get some quick grabs on open clusters close to the horizon in less than ideal seeing when the QSI didn't get the job done 'fast' enough. Please note that I agree with Ollypenrice.....

BUT...

several times this year I failed to get a colour image because I lost the sky before I got all the RGB data even when I was shooting just 3x10 mins each filter, that's 1.5 hours total and after getting all the R and G I lost the sky before getting any B. For one of the targets it took me another 2 weeks to get just the 30 mins (3x10) B, but if I'd been using a DSLR then I would have had 1 hour colour data and would have processed that and moved on. Sure I could have shot fewer than 3 and/or shorter subs on each filter, but in reality you're hardly ever going to set up to do that.

 

 

Yes, that's one of the right reasons for choosing OSC. You do have the option, with an electronic wheel, of scrolling RGB,RGB etc but the frustration factor is real enough, as you say.

Olly

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3 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

You do have the option, with an electronic wheel, of scrolling RGB,RGB etc but the frustration factor is real enough, as you say.

Hi Olly, I used to do that, but that meant running autofocus on ever sub as the filter changed filters, which just burnt valuable imaging time, or not bothering with focus changes which I've also done, but then you're compromising the investment in the more expensive mono CCD+filters, so not something I'd recommend. That said, perhaps when I'm shooting those tricky low down southerly targets when time on target is limited then RGB, RGB, etc. might be worth trying again. Cheers, Geof

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If I am time limited by short nights, clouds etc instead of imaging LLLLL, RRRRR, GGGGG, BBBBB etc I go for LRGB, LRGB, LRGB, LRGB, LRGB, LRGB etc but only refocus on the L and take my chances with the RG and B - its not ideal but saves a lot of time and the in focus L covers a multitude of sins in the 2x2 binned RGB!

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I'm just starting my own AP journey. I chose DSLR and to stick with widefield for the time being. I don't have any of the other equipment required to do deep imaging and I don't yet possess the knowledge or skills for taking and processing good astro photos. I also chose a DSLR because I can use it for things other than just AP and want to learn more about photography and editing in general. I got my whole kit including a Tycka Rangers 57" tripod, iOptron Skyguider Pro, Canon 750D, a Canon EF-S 18-55mm lens and a Canon EF 75-300mm lens for around $1125USD (~£800). In the future, I can add a small APO to it since the mount can take a little more load. Then down the line, upgrade the mount and eventually get into a CCD or CMOS camera, guide scope, etc. I'm personally taking baby steps, but it appears you already have a setup that would support CCD or CMOS. You might want to consider getting a cheap secondhand DSLR just to learn the basics first. Even something like a Canon 600D or 650D is a good starter camera and are relatively inexpensive.

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Wow! Lots of interesting replies. Thanks to each and every one of you. :thumbsup: 

As you can see in my sig, I already own a DSLR which I am going to keep as is for daytime photography, meaning I find myself in the market for another camera for astro use. I'm really drawn to the Altair Hypercam 183M (the one Trevor uses on Astrobackyard) I understand it will take much longer to image (like 3 or 4 times) however I also understand it can produce better images (read: cleaner/clearer) due to capturing more light. (almost sounds like I know what I'm talking about there doesn't it. :icon_biggrin:)
 
A couple of weeks ago I very nearly bought a modded Canon from Juan's website however I held back as wasn't sure it was the correct choice. Somewhere in the back of my mind I feel a dedicated astro cam is calling me..
Regarding its use; I love nebulae and galaxies. I do like the stars/moon and have recently discovered the planets however I have to admit, I love the colours, so predominantly that will be my thing. 

I already have a Starlight Xpress electronic filter wheel with room for seven filters sitting on the shelf in my office. You know how it is, cloudy nights lead to 'newbies retail therapy'. It came up cheap on this forum so I bought it. I saw Martin from FLO a few days later and told him. With a puzzled look on his face he asked me why as I have a DSLR? I learned something that day, apparently you don't need a filter wheel with a DSLR. My first beginners mistake! (that I know of) :icon_biggrin: 

As a side note; Sometime in the very near future I will be replacing the 130PDS & ST80 with the SW ED80 and SW Evostar 50mm guide scope as my imaging setup so I would like the camera to compliment this new setup. 

Thanks again all. Some really good advice. :thumbsup:
Pete.

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4 hours ago, geoflewis said:

Hi Olly, I used to do that, but that meant running autofocus on ever sub as the filter changed filters, which just burnt valuable imaging time, or not bothering with focus changes which I've also done, but then you're compromising the investment in the more expensive mono CCD+filters, so not something I'd recommend. That said, perhaps when I'm shooting those tricky low down southerly targets when time on target is limited then RGB, RGB, etc. might be worth trying again. Cheers, Geof

Remember that it is almost certain that non-parfocality comes from your optics, not your filters, so the compromise on focus is present when you shoot in one shot colour as well.

Olly

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3 hours ago, Skipper Billy said:

If I am time limited by short nights, clouds etc instead of imaging LLLLL, RRRRR, GGGGG, BBBBB etc I go for LRGB, LRGB, LRGB, LRGB, LRGB, LRGB etc but only refocus on the L and take my chances with the RG and B - its not ideal but saves a lot of time and the in focus L covers a multitude of sins in the 2x2 binned RGB!

Absolutey the right thing to do. Resolution has an enormous effect on depth of field so binning means far greater tolerance and it's the L which really needs to be tight.

Olly

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1 hour ago, ollypenrice said:

Remember that it is almost certain that non-parfocality comes from your optics, not your filters, so the compromise on focus is present when you shoot in one shot colour as well.

Olly

Now that’s a very good point...!!! I guess I take more care when using the mono CCD, because I can, but maybe I should think more about what I’m trying to achieve with those low Messier open cluster targets, which is not a prize winning image, rather just adding them to my Messier collection.

I think Skipper Billy also made a very relevant observation

4 hours ago, Skipper Billy said:

If I am time limited by short nights, clouds etc instead of imaging LLLLL, RRRRR, GGGGG, BBBBB etc I go for LRGB, LRGB, LRGB, LRGB, LRGB, LRGB etc but only refocus on the L and take my chances with the RG and B - its not ideal but saves a lot of time and the in focus L covers a multitude of sins in the 2x2 binned RGB!

Thanks both.

Geof

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Hi. If you have clear skies (lots of them) and an observatory then probably a monochrome camera would be a good choice, but one with a sensor as big as a dslr is gonna put you way over budget. A (second?) astro-modified 1300d is gonna get you results right out of the box; 600 sterling, a miserably small monochrome setup. If you can push to your upper budget, the asi294 produces colour images indistinguishable -to my eyes at least- from monochrome, and with a far less hassle:) It would be my answer to your question and at just €880, is almost certainly wife-persuadable! Just my €0.02.

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HA%20COMPARATOR-L.jpg

 

56 minutes ago, alacant said:

Hi. If you have clear skies (lots of them) and an observatory then probably a monochrome camera would be a good choice, but one with a sensor as big as a dslr is gonna put you way over budget. A (second?) astro-modified 1300d is gonna get you results right out of the box; 600 sterling, a miserably small monochrome setup. If you can push to your upper budget, the asi294 produces colour images indistinguishable -to my eyes at least- from monochrome, and with a far less hassle:) It would be my answer to your question and at just €880, is almost certainly wife-persuadable! Just my €0.02.

How indistinguishable they are depends on whether or not they depend on narrowband input. My favourite example is this one. I think it's quite easy to distinguish between the OSC image on the left and the HaOSC image on the right! (I used both OSC and mono versions of the same CCD camera for this.

Olly

 

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