Lodestar 2 and OAG

[cfpendock]

1 hour ago, RayD said:

I would think the back focus distance between the focal reducer and the camera sensor will be different as the 2 OTA's have differing focal lengths.  This means the the set ups would be unique to each OTA.

That is very interesting.  I use a Lodestar X2 together with an SX filter wheel and OAG.  These are coupled directly to an Atik 4000 and make my "imaging package".  I use this package for both my de-forked CPC (2800mm fl), and my Tak 106 FSQ, with and without reducer.  I make no changes to the "package" when swapping from one scope to the other.

Chris

[Rodd]

6 minutes ago, Allinthehead said:

Hi Rodd. You said earlier in the thread you're losing nights imaging trying to figure this out. I already suggested on a different thread, as has someone on this, to set up during the day. That was how i got my oag to focus with my asi 1600. I needed to add a spacer between the guidecam and the oag to get it to focus. You shouldn't be losing any imaging time as that only adds to the frustration.

I have trouble seeing my laptop during the day--very bright.  Also, switching from eyepiece to imaging is a terrible thing to have to endure, at least for the TOA 130 and C11Edge--not so much for the Televue.  I have not yet used the FSQ 106.  I can't try it at this point on any other scope but the TA--first off, that is the connectors I have, secondly, I do not want to switch scopes until I get it to work. I assume you suggest I point the scope at a far off tower or something and see if I can get focus.  I do not know what I will need to do to the backfocus to look through an eyepiece at something 500 yards away--Besides.....I only have 2 spacers at my disposal--both came with the OAG...a 16 mm and a 21.5 mm.  I have tried them both.  I too think there is a detail overlooked, or there is a malfunction in either the Lodestar or the OAG (prism no doubt).  The fact that using various spacers and cranking the main focus in and out produce no effect on the image from the lodestar tells me that  its not a spacer or focuser issue.  Maybe I have it set up wrong.  I don't know.  Finally, when things are working properly I have learned how to capture pretty well, and my processing is coming along.....but tinkering and fiddling and diagnosing and doing the things that all of you experienced people can do is my weakness (one of many).  I am all thumbs when it comes to figuring thins out.  In short....I don't really know how to do it!!!

[Rodd]

2 minutes ago, cfpendock said:

That is very interesting.  I use a Lodestar X2 together with an SX filter wheel and OAG.  These are coupled directly to an Atik 4000 and make my "imaging package".  I use this package for both my de-forked CPC (2800mm fl), and my Tak 106 FSQ, with and without reducer.  I make no changes to the "package" when swapping from one scope to the other.

Chris

Finally...some good news.  I assume the only changes you make are to the connections between the "package" and the OTA/reducer

Rodd

[cfpendock]

1 minute ago, Rodd said:

I assume the only changes you make are to the connections between the "package" and the OTA/reducer

No.  I make no changes whatsoever to the "package".  Both scopes have the same size opening for the nosepiece, so it is just a question of removing it from the one scope and fixing it to the other.  The only change which I do make is to recalibrate the focuser (Lakeside and Focusmax), for whichever scope I am using.

Chris

[Allinthehead]

6 minutes ago, Rodd said:

I have trouble seeing my laptop during the day--very bright.  Also, switching from eyepiece to imaging is a terrible thing to have to endure, at least for the TOA 130 and C11Edge--not so much for the Televue.  I have not yet used the FSQ 106.  I can't try it at this point on any other scope but the TA--first off, that is the connectors I have, secondly, I do not want to switch scopes until I get it to work. I assume you suggest I point the scope at a far off tower or something and see if I can get focus.  I do not know what I will need to do to the backfocus to look through an eyepiece at something 500 yards away--Besides.....I only have 2 spacers at my disposal--both came with the OAG...a 16 mm and a 21.5 mm.  I have tried them both.  I too think there is a detail overlooked, or there is a malfunction in either the Lodestar or the OAG (prism no doubt).  The fact that using various spacers and cranking the main focus in and out produce no effect on the image from the lodestar tells me that  its not a spacer or focuser issue.  Maybe I have it set up wrong.  I don't know.  Finally, when things are working properly I have learned how to capture pretty well, and my processing is coming along.....but tinkering and fiddling and diagnosing and doing the things that all of you experienced people can do is my weakness (one of many).  I am all thumbs when it comes to figuring thins out.  In short....I don't really know how to do it!!!

You can setup as if imaging just during the day. Put your laptop in a cardboard box or something to remove the glare. Trial and error is sometimes the only way and why waste clear sky.

[Rodd]

2 minutes ago, Allinthehead said:

You can setup as if imaging just during the day. Put your laptop in a cardboard box or something to remove the glare. Trial and error is sometimes the only way and why waste clear sky.

I will see if I can do it.  But first--is there a way to test the lodestar to make sure its working properly?  If I hold a piece of paper directly in front of it, will printed words be clear or do I need to have it see through lenses or  the reflection of a focused mirror?

[Allinthehead]

3 minutes ago, Rodd said:

I will see if I can do it.  But first--is there a way to test the lodestar to make sure its working properly?  If I hold a piece of paper directly in front of it, will printed words be clear or do I need to have it see through lenses or  the reflection of a focused mirror?

I went through the same thing. I was lucky to have a little lens come with the asi 120 so i could confirm the camera worked. 

Can you connect the lodestar to a guidscope?

[Rodd]

Just now, Allinthehead said:

I went through the same thing. I was lucky to have a little lens come with the asi 120 so i could confirm the camera worked. 

Can you connect the lodestar to a guidscope?

Don't have one.  I have always used the SBIG self guiding filter wheel.  I am seriously considering going that route though--but if the Lodestar is faulty, it won't work there either

[Allinthehead]

1 minute ago, Rodd said:

Don't have one.  I have always used the SBIG self guiding filter wheel.  I am seriously considering going that route though--but if the Lodestar is faulty, it won't work there either

Could it be connected to one of your scopes?

[cfpendock]

6 minutes ago, Rodd said:

I will see if I can do it.  But first--is there a way to test the lodestar to make sure its working properly?  If I hold a piece of paper directly in front of it, will printed words be clear or do I need to have it see through lenses or  the reflection of a focused mirror?

You won't see any words without a lens.  But whenever I get a new camera - including the Lodestar, I connect to the computer (indoors...), and using the SX software or any other suitable software, switch on the camera (without any lens).  It should register the difference between dark and light, so you can test this just by covering and uncovering the camera.  Then if you run your finger (or something similar) from one side of the camera to the other, you should see the image go dark on one side, then dark when your finger is completely over the camera, and then dark on the other side as your finger passes across and away from the camera.  This will at least demonstrate that the camera works.

Chris 

[Rodd]

5 minutes ago, Allinthehead said:

Could it be connected to one of your scopes?

maybe through an eyepiece holder.  Don't know

3 minutes ago, cfpendock said:

You won't see any words without a lens.  But whenever I get a new camera - including the Lodestar, I connect to the computer (indoors...), and using the SX software or any other suitable software, switch on the camera (without any lens).  It should register the difference between dark and light, so you can test this just by covering and uncovering the camera.  Then if you run your finger (or something similar) from one side of the camera to the other, you should see the image go dark on one side, then dark when your finger is completely over the camera, and then dark on the other side as your finger passes across and away from the camera.  This will at least demonstrate that the camera works.

Chris 

Hmmm...when the lodestar was connected to the OAG and the prism was in what I thought was a good position, the image was a white circle (off center and not complete).  When the prism was retracted out of the light cone--synonymous with your finger blocking the lens I would think, the image was not dark, but snowy--not fine grained snow--but coarse grained snow.  

[cfpendock]

I think my test would be more definitive......and can be done from the comfort of indoors.  But from what you say, your camera is certainly sensitive to something.....

As Allinthehead indicated - it is often easier to do some tests in daylight - I also set up my focus in the daylight, keeping the computer in a nearby shed so I could see the screen in daylight.

Chris

[RayD]

1 hour ago, cfpendock said:

That is very interesting.  I use a Lodestar X2 together with an SX filter wheel and OAG.  These are coupled directly to an Atik 4000 and make my "imaging package".  I use this package for both my de-forked CPC (2800mm fl), and my Tak 106 FSQ, with and without reducer.  I make no changes to the "package" when swapping from one scope to the other.

Chris

It isn't the OAG "package" that's the issue, it's the fixed spacing between the FR and and OAG on scopes with differing focal lengths.  For example, if you look here you will see that depending on the focal length of the scope, the spacing can change.  This is what I am questioning, and noting that it may be different when using the same FR on different scopes.  If your OAG set up works for you in all circumstances with the same FR fitted on different scopes then happy days.

The problem here for Rodd, and the thing he needs to check and query with his supplier, is that if they have calculated and supplied all the equipment and fixed spacers based on the FL of the FSQ but, as appears, he is trying it all with the FSQ FR fitted to the TOA, it may not work.

Edited March 18, 2018 by RayD

[cfpendock]

5 minutes ago, RayD said:

If your OAG set up works for you in all circumstances with the same FR fitted on different scopes then happy days.

Thanks for clarifying that Ray.  I think that I read your post too quickly.  But I also agree that I have probably been just lucky... my OAG package works the same, with or without the focal reducer - but I can only say this for the Tak 106.  Sadly I don't have a reducer for the C11....

Chris

[RayD]

 

9 minutes ago, cfpendock said:

Thanks for clarifying that Ray.  I think that I read your post too quickly.  But I also agree that I have probably been just lucky... my OAG package works the same, with or without the focal reducer - but I can only say this for the Tak 106.  Sadly I don't have a reducer for the C11....

Chris

No problem Chris.  It probably would on the same scope with or without the FR, but Rodd has 2 different scopes with differing focal lengths and is using the spacing calculated for the FSQ on the TOA.  I have a feeling this is where the issue lies as in either case he will need to have the spacer between the OAG and the FW, which in itself is a little unusual, but if the other spacer (FR to OAG) is calculated using the FSQ but is being tested on the TOA it may never work.

It's always tough trying to help when you aren't there in front of the kit.

Edited March 18, 2018 by RayD

[Rodd]

3 minutes ago, RayD said:

 

No problem Chris.  It probably would on the same scope with or without the FR, but Rodd has 2 different scopes with differing focal lengths and is using the spacing calculated for the FSQ on the TOA.  I have a feeling this is where the issue lies as in either case he will need to have the spacer between the OAG and the FW, which in itself is a little unusual, but if the other spacer (FR to OAG) is calculated using the FQS but is being tested on the TOA it may never work.

It's always tough trying to help when you aren't there in front of the kit.

To clarify--The distances/spacers were calculated for both scopes, and he knew I was going to try the TOA first, so the calculations are for the TOA with reducer.  As far as I know--the ASI 1600 threads directly into the filter wheel and never uses spaced between the camera and filter wheel.  between the OAG and filter wheel yes--but I tried that.  I think I will go fiddle now in the day time (its a sunny day hear-though cold 0 degrees C (better than -10 I know.

[RayD]

4 minutes ago, Rodd said:

To clarify--The distances/spacers were calculated for both scopes, and he knew I was going to try the TOA first, so the calculations are for the TOA with reducer.  As far as I know--the ASI 1600 threads directly into the filter wheel and never uses spaced between the camera and filter wheel.  between the OAG and filter wheel yes--but I tried that.  I think I will go fiddle now in the day time (its a sunny day hear-though cold 0 degrees C (better than -10 I know.

Ok thanks Rodd.  The thing is you have 2 spacers, but we don't know which one goes where.  Yes you are correct in that your camera will screw directly to the filter wheel, but unusually you will almost certainly need a spacer between the OAG and FW.  What we need to know is what the spacing requirement is between the FR and the camera sensor for your FR when fitted to your TOA.  Once we know that we can work out which spacer will go where, as you may need to use both.

[Rodd]

Just now, RayD said:

Ok thanks Rodd.  The thing is you have 2 spacers, but we don't know which one goes where.  Yes you are correct in that your camera will screw directly to the filter wheel, but unusually you will almost certainly need a spacer between the OAG and FW.  What we need to know is what the spacing requirement is between the FR and the camera sensor for your FR when fitted to your TOA.  Once we know that we can work out which spacer will go where, as you may need to use both.

I can't use both.  the spacers are attached to a 3 pronged wing nut type thing.  the 3 wings are what the OAG thumb screws tighten against to hold the OAG in place.  The spacers and wing nuts as I call them can only be threaded into the OAG--not each other

[RayD]

Just now, Rodd said:

I can't use both.  the spacers are attached to a 3 pronged wing nut type thing.  the 3 wings are what the OAG thumb screws tighten against to hold the OAG in place.  The spacers and wing nuts as I call them can only be threaded into the OAG--not each other

Ahhhhh ok, it's becoming clearer.  Are they custom ones or the standard ones which came with the OAG?  I didn't mean screw them together, I meant one in between the OAG and FW, and then another between the FW and the FR.  The latter spaces your OAG at a point where you can get focus with it, and the one between the OAG and FW will set you main camera sensor at the optimum distance for your FR to work.

[cfpendock]

6 minutes ago, RayD said:

Rodd has 2 different scopes with differing focal lengths

And that is exactly what I was picking up on.  My original point was that I use my OAG "package" with both the Tak and the C11 - vastly different focal lengths.  When I originally got the Lodestar, I set everything up for the Tak - it's lighter and easier to manage than the C11!  When I subsequently transferred the package to the C11, sure, I had to fiddle with the focus on the C11 in order to achieve focus, but I made no change to the package (Atik 4000, filter wheel, OAG and Lodestar) itself. No spacers, nothing. That is why I think maybe I was just lucky.  On the other hand, there is no change to the length of the light path within the package, whichever scope I am using.  This all explains why I cannot really understand Rodd's problem, unless he has a faulty Lodestar, or that the imaging camera he is using has a light path which is absolutely incompatible with his filter wheel / OAG assembly.  I don't understand......it should work!

Chris

[Rodd]

1 minute ago, RayD said:

Ahhhhh ok, it's becoming clearer.  Are they custom ones or the standard ones which came with the OAG?  I didn't mean screw them together, I meant one in between the OAG and FW, and then another between the FW and the FR.  The latter spaces your OAG at a point where you can get focus with it, and the one between the OAG and FW will set you main camera sensor at the optimum distance for your FR to work.

No--the wing nut part is built in--can't be removed, so they can't be used between the camera and filter wheel.  They came with the OAG

[Rodd]

3 minutes ago, cfpendock said:

And that is exactly what I was picking up on.  My original point was that I use my OAG "package" with both the Tak and the C11 - vastly different focal lengths.  When I originally got the Lodestar, I set everything up for the Tak - it's lighter and easier to manage than the C11!  When I subsequently transferred the package to the C11, sure, I had to fiddle with the focus on the C11 in order to achieve focus, but I made no change to the package (Atik 4000, filter wheel, OAG and Lodestar) itself. No spacers, nothing. That is why I think maybe I was just lucky.  On the other hand, there is no change to the length of the light path within the package, whichever scope I am using.  This all explains why I cannot really understand Rodd's problem, unless he has a faulty Lodestar, or that the imaging camera he is using has a light path which is absolutely incompatible with his filter wheel / OAG assembly.  I don't understand......it should work!

Chris

Its all ZWO products, so yes...should work!

[RayD]

1 minute ago, cfpendock said:

And that is exactly what I was picking up on.  My original point was that I use my OAG "package" with both the Tak and the C11 - vastly different focal lengths.  When I originally got the Lodestar, I set everything up for the Tak - it's lighter and easier to manage than the C11!  When I subsequently transferred the package to the C11, sure, I had to fiddle with the focus on the C11 in order to achieve focus, but I made no change to the package (Atik 4000, filter wheel, OAG and Lodestar) itself. No spacers, nothing. That is why I think maybe I was just lucky.  On the other hand, there is no change to the length of the light path within the package, whichever scope I am using.  This all explains why I cannot really understand Rodd's problem, unless he has a faulty Lodestar, or that the imaging camera he is using has a light path which is absolutely incompatible with his filter wheel / OAG assembly.  I don't understand......it should work!

Chris

Unless you are using a FR on each it shouldn't make any difference.  Once focused your OAG "package" will work.  Once you introduce a FR you need the focal plane of both cameras to be a set distance behind that FR, irrespective of focus.  If you take your "package" off your scope with say a Skywatcher FR needing 55mm spacing, and put it on a scope with a TS FR fitted that needs 116mm to work, well it won't, you'll need a new spacer, no matter what you do with the focus wheel.  The problem then is that your focal plane can be so far back that you can't wind the focuser in enough to actually get focus.

I think your circumstances have meant that you haven't encountered this, which is great, but in Rodds case we don't know what the spacing requirement is for the FR, and that's what I'm trying to find out to see where the spacers that he has need to go.

[RayD]

Ah we are going off at all angles here.

Rodd I'll leave Chris to help you as I think he has more experience of this issue than me, so I am out of other suggestions.

Hope you get it sorted anyway and look forward to the images when it is 

[Rodd]

6 minutes ago, RayD said:

Ah we are going off at all angles here.

Rodd I'll leave Chris to help you as I think he has more experience of this issue than me, so I am out of other suggestions.

Hope you get it sorted anyway and look forward to the images when it is 

Thanks Ray--I really appreciate your help. 

Rodd