Remote imaging experiances

[Allinthehead]

1 hour ago, PatrickGilliland said:

It is just another avenue to explore within the hobby - it works for some and for others not so much  

Good to see you back Paddy?

Absolutely it's a fantastic solution for many people. If i ever had to give up home imaging due to light pollution, disability, illness or whatever it's something i would consider.

I've been following the thread on Astrobin around IOTD and it's a subject that I've given some thought to. I agree with everyone that gives more kudos to the imagers that go out and gather the data themselves but i don't want to see the format change. I'd like to get an IOTD at some stage and I'd want it competing against all images, whether data was acquired and processed, or just processed, or even would you believe as was in the thread, neither. 

What drove me nuts on Astrobin was seeing two DSW images of the same target win on consecutive days.  Nice images but if all i wanted to see were multiple versions of the same image I'd just browse one of Rodd's threads? (i enjoy your images Rodd i say that in jest)

Anyway paying for data definitely has it's place and will probably get even more popular as our skies are eroded.

Link to Astrobin thread

[gorann]

For us up here in Scandinavia it is not only clouds that are a problem but also May - September when the sky is just too bright and you loose processing skills and have more or less to start over in September if you have not had any practice. Last summer Liverpool Telescope data saved me but that is now more or less used up. I am of course always going to be more proud over images made from data from my own kit but I am very tempted by the remote option....

[PatrickGilliland]

14 minutes ago, Allinthehead said:

Good to see you back Paddy

Thanks - though in a limited capacity. Not sure I can even post my pictures here as it may be seen as promotional so will avoid that.

Personally, I have no interest in participation prizes, should I win something I would like to to be on merit and merit alone.

22 minutes ago, Allinthehead said:

consecutive days

Haha, that was me (on day one) - sorry!  That sort of thing is easy to overcome, but then in winter if you get three good M42's appear from different sources some knock that too.  I quite like the challenge of same data though and it keeps me on my toes, if other people produce better images from the same data then it is time for me to go back to the drawing board and figure out what I can do to improve.  Like a hidden sub challenge for me.  

Ultimately I would never want to take away the joy of doing it yourself.  In fact, I have a project starting with schools later this year aimed at just that.  Just about options, and they are never bad to have.

 

[Allinthehead]

6 minutes ago, PatrickGilliland said:

Not sure I can even post my pictures here as it may be seen as promotional so will avoid that.

Olly hosts remote setups. No different really is it. Post away I'd say.

[PatrickGilliland]

1 minute ago, Allinthehead said:

Olly hosts remote setups. No different really is it. Post away I'd say.

I'll take it under advisement  Had posts removed previously so do not want a repeat of that.

I can stick to the talking until I am sure.

Paddy 

[Scott]

19 minutes ago, PatrickGilliland said:

Thanks - though in a limited capacity. Not sure I can even post my pictures here as it may be seen as promotional so will avoid that.

Personally, I have no interest in participation prizes, should I win something I would like to to be on merit and merit alone.

Haha, that was me (on day one) - sorry!  That sort of thing is easy to overcome, but then in winter if you get three good M42's appear from different sources some knock that too.  I quite like the challenge of same data though and it keeps me on my toes, if other people produce better images from the same data then it is time for me to go back to the drawing board and figure out what I can do to improve.  Like a hidden sub challenge for me.  

Ultimately I would never want to take away the joy of doing it yourself.  In fact, I have a project starting with schools later this year aimed at just that.  Just about options, and they are never bad to have.

 

No-one has ever said you can't post images. I'm unsure why you would wish to insinuate it's the case. All anyone has ever said is that you avoid promoting your business as per coc. Welcome back after such a long break anyway. I wonder why you chose this thread to do so

 

[PatrickGilliland]

 

13 minutes ago, Scott said:

No-one has ever said you can't post images. I'm unsure why you would wish to insinuate it's the case. All anyone has ever said is that you avoid promoting your business as per coc. Welcome back after such a long break anyway. I wonder why you chose this thread to do so

 

I have neither the inclination or interest in insinuation (sounds like subterfuge to me and I would only get confused ) - after deletion incident, I was confused with what I could post so "I chose" to avoid any issues and not post.  Without explicit clarification it was not worth the risk or effort- I'll take this as approval and will resume though if in agreement?

As to why this thread - hopefully in a suitably constrained manner seemed appropriate to have 'the right to reply' and offer an opinion along with some calrifications.

On the plus side if we are all good then keep the eyes peeled for some images.

Thanks

[ollypenrice]

11 hours ago, Allinthehead said:

Olly hosts remote setups. No different really is it. Post away I'd say.

Just to be clear, I don't post anything captured by the remote scopes I host. They don't belong to me and I never see or handle the raw data. I just do the exciting stuff like un-plug and re-plug USB cables  and reboot computers! 

However, I do, of course, post images made from the scopes available to our guests.

While it's nice to get the odd IOTD I agree with Paddy: it isn't the motivator. That motivation is the desire to do justice to the beauty of what's out there - or what lies buried in your raw data. It's an addictive compulsion.

Olly

 

[Gina]

Like some other have said, the joy for me is capturing images with my own equipment.  And whilst processing can be rewarding it can also be time consuming and tedious.  That, of course, is just my personal view and if others can enjoy using remote equipment owned and set up by someone else, that's good  

[kirkster501]

On 14/03/2018 at 15:58, Allinthehead said:

I agree with Dave here. Completely different setting up your own gear abroad. I'd have no interest in just downloading data and processing. For me the pleasure is in the capture. Then processing the data to see what i got, good or bad.

Could not agree more.  Using remote systems to me makes the data not really "mine".  The whole point, in my mind anyway, is the fact that is was me, with my gear, in my garden, with my polar aligned system, that I used to grab those photons of that galaxy/nebula.  The capture of the data is a fundamental part of the whole AP paradigm in my view.  Others think differently of course.

That said, agree with Peter and everyone else how incredibly frustrating AP is becoming in the UK.  It's hardly an hobby that you can "pursue" in the ordinary sense, it is something you just have to "grab" as and when.  And it is getting worse every year.  I fitted a TEC 140 field flattener two weeks ago and not had a chance to test it yet due to the weather and, with the looks of the forecast, it won't get tested any time soon.

 

[kirkster501]

49 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

Just to be clear, I don't post anything captured by the remote scopes I host. They don't belong to me and I never see or handle the raw data. I just do the exciting stuff like un-plug and re-plug USB cables  and reboot computers! 

However, I do, of course, post images made from the scopes available to our guests.

While it's nice to get the odd IOTD I agree with Paddy: it isn't the motivator. That motivation is the desire to do justice to the beauty of what's out there - or what lies buried in your raw data. It's an addictive compulsion.

Olly

 

... and pay for the electricity bills! 

[carastro]

Quote

Could not agree more.  Using remote systems to me makes the data not really "mine".  The whole point, in my mind anyway, is the fact that is was me, with my gear, in my garden, with my polar aligned system, that I used to grab those photons of that galaxy/nebula.  The capture of the data is a fundamental part of the whole AP paradigm in my view. 

Totally agree.  Personally I don't understand how any-one can get personal satisfaction in posting up data when all they did was download and process it - its only half yours and you have bypassed the tricky bit!   Fine if you have set the equipment up yourself and are imaging it remotely.  

Carole 

 

[ollypenrice]

It's very interesting that for some the capture is the 'real' bit and for others it's the processing - though it can be both. It's the processing which interests me because the capture is essentially mechanical. There is nothing that I can do differently from others. Polar align, guide, focus. That's it. (Well, should that be Spend, polar align, guide, focus?? )

I don't really think about whether or not an image is mine. I think about whether or not it's any good, whether or not I could do a better job of it, how I might do it differently.

However, I don't think my view of this is any more valid than a contrary view. It's just whatever tosses your caber. (I felt like a change form floats your boat!)

Olly

[wxsatuser]

15 minutes ago, carastro said:

Totally agree.  Personally I don't understand how any-one can get personal satisfaction in posting up data when all they did was download and process it - its only half yours!   Fine if you have set the equipment up yourself and are imaging it remotely.  

Carole 

 

Technically it's not even half yours, the data is copyright but normally all the images you produce are yours.

It's fine if anyone does'nt like this way of imaging but why should anyone be excluded because they cannot afford the gear or have a good location.
Most people signing up have their own systems so they may have the right of passage, if that's all it's about.

Anyone with a remote setup will always rely on someone close at hand to sort out problems even if they intially set it up.

[RayD]

I must admit I see both sides and think there is no right or wrong.  As noted by @Gina if using equipment set up and owned by others for the data only works for people, then that's great.  As the hobby doesn't consist of just a single component, practising processing is no doubt useful at any time, and can only enhance your capability to process your own data when, and if, you obtain any.

It is frustrating imaging in the UK, but it is costly to image remotely, either by way of subscription or your own equipment.  I am extremely fortunate to be embarking on building a small observatory at our house in Spain this year, and am really excited by that, but probably wouldn't feel the same excitement at using kit owned, set up and maintained by others......But I do 'get it'.

I think, for me personally, the best compromise I have seen from a commercial perspective is what I believe Barry and Steve do, which is have their own kit all set up in a remote managed environment (I believe it is E-Eye)?  This seems to me to be the ideal solution to gaining ultimate satisfaction across all components of imaging, but if I recall correctly, Barry mentioned this coming with a fairly hefty price tag once factoring in buying all the additional equipment etc.

I think reverting back to the OP, there are many good reviews that I have seen for each of the remote data acquisition options mentioned here, I suppose it is about what method would offer you the most satisfaction and fulfil your needs or wants best.

 

[PatrickGilliland]

27 minutes ago, carastro said:

how any-one can get personal satisfaction

I am fully on board with the point of view some may have that AP for them is the whole package from setup through to the final image.  It is one avenue or approach to the hobby.  However, I do not feel the need to judge someone because they are satisfied with another approach.

Some people like coffee or even going for a run, both very odd things to me .  Everyone is of course entitled to their personal views and to participate in the hobby in their prefered way.  Likewise, we are all entitled to or dislike the choices of others.  At the end of the day we are all participating in the same hobby and my view is I would rather acknowledge and respect the views and approaches of others.  I certainly don't feel the need to knock the ambitions of others and question what satisfies them.

27 minutes ago, carastro said:

its only half yours!

Nonsense - If you pay for a ready meal is that only half yours?  You purchase copyrighted raw data and the image you make is entirely yours to do with as you see fit.  I advocate declaring the source and being open and transparent, not trying to fool anyone.  I try to make the best image I can on a given target.   In fact, if others are using the same data then there is an additional 'processing' challenge in trying to be at the top of that pyramid.  If there are 5 good versions from the same data set,  producing one of the better ones is actually very challenging.  A challenge I love and honestly believe is one of the key factors that has helped me become a half decent processor.

So in simple terms, if your view is AP is the collection and processing great, if you have other ways to enjoy the hobby that is great too.  I am in no position to judge and never would judge.  Instead encouraging everyone possible to enjoy the hobby as they see fit or can is far more important and more productive.  I have a project starting later in the year introducing shared set ups to schools as a demonstration of this philosophy,  should they feel somehow cheated as the data is 'not just theirs?' or encouraged to engage more?

It is only with the advent of quality CCD/DLSR and latterly CMOS technology that this hobby became something you could do at home.  Prior to that it would have been perfectly acceptable and often required to go to a professional observatory - the approach of shared data is actually older than home data, it was acceptable before so I struggle to see the issue now. 

42 minutes ago, kirkster501 said:

  It's hardly an hobby that you can "pursue" in the ordinary sense

Or justify in the UK at times.  I have what I called the most expensive shed in Worcester as for 98% of the time the roof is closed and that is all it is.  Moving it all abroad is not a cheap option.  If you want more regular data, practice or consistent quality remote options are there for that.  If you enjoy home based and are prepared for the frustration then press on with it.  There is a thrill the first x times you pull down an image yourself, but to be frank that for me became less of an achievement in time once I had the skills.  But I would want every AP person of any preference to experience that thrill.  In time though the effort and lower quality becomes frustrating and you end up with a hobby that severly comprimised.

17 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

It's the processing which interests me because the capture is essentially mechanical

Agreed - with respect to all those struggling (I have been one of those) I honestly feel about 2% of my work is in the capture.  It is a mechanical process of setting up, getting it working and then to be frank leaving it to do its thing, normally while I sleep!  I have set up pretty much every type of scope and really it is just a pre-requisite activity.  Like learning to drive.  Now its something that is just second nature and of little importance to me.  I focus the bulk of my energies on the processing and this leads to better results for me.  But then I am all about the image and finding the extra something in each data set.  I am, in many respects the polar opposite of those who will only do backyard, I often simply do not process data that is compromised in any way as it is contrary to my objectives.

Ultimately it is just a different way to enjoy the same hobby, whether you like it, tolerate it or are against it.  Whichever camp you are in the approach is here to stay and will most likely become more common as people choose to supplement their data or find access to superior equipment and skies.  

As someone said above 'Each to their own' - People are different, have different views and different objectives.  But we are all in the same hobby so I will stick with supporting all those involved, I'll even make them a coffee while discussing (still weird to me though)

[Vox45]

I may be a romantic but I would miss the fun (drama) of being next to my gear.

Part of the fun for me are the emotions of the hobby, the waiting for the perfect night, the sensation of being in the dark and looking at the night sky while my camera is clicking away, the cold, the glass of wine as I lay down in my reclining chair. the silence and ocasional strange noise (damn you hedgehog!)

Then when I process the images I have emotions attached to them: I remember this light frame was being taken when I bumped on the tripod, this one caught the shooting star that I saw. All of this is taken away when you sit in your living room. It's like climbing a mountain in virtual reality.. .the view is the same some might say.

That being said, I see where remote imager a coming from and Olly is right, It's just whatever pushes your swing...

[PatrickGilliland]

21 minutes ago, RayD said:

fairly hefty price tag

I'll second that 100% and then double your original 100% estimate to get closer to the truth!

Not within the reach of all - other options just provide a route to that data - you lose some perks like full control but you are still sharing the control in some respects.  Or to put another way, it normalises the playing field to a degree, those elite remote setups that where unobtainable can actually be accessed by the general public now.  Seems like a nice option to have if it is your preference.   

[Tom OD]

1 hour ago, carastro said:

Totally agree.  Personally I don't understand how any-one can get personal satisfaction in posting up data when all they did was download and process it - its only half yours and you have bypassed the tricky bit!   Fine if you have set the equipment up yourself and are imaging it remotely.  

Carole 

 

I d go as far as only 1/3rd yours

I always thought of AP as being in 3 parts. 1) The equipment, can you set it up, polar align it, fix or adjust it if needed. 2) The capture of data, what to pick, orientation, focus, framing etc. 3) The processing.....

[RayD]

 

1 hour ago, carastro said:

Totally agree.  Personally I don't understand how any-one can get personal satisfaction in posting up data when all they did was download and process it - its only half yours and you have bypassed the tricky bit!   Fine if you have set the equipment up yourself and are imaging it remotely.  

Carole 

 

And I've been standing next to you when that 'tricky bit' wasn't going quite right .  I was ready to run and lock myself in my cabin 

I must admit I do love the satisfaction of getting it all working, but do miss the dark skies of Spain when I'm not imaging there (with my own kit at my own house), which is why I can see the attraction to people whose only opportunity to get such good data is with hosted solutions.

[carastro]

Quote

And I've been standing next to you when that 'tricky bit' wasn't going quite right .  I was ready to run and lock myself in my cabin 

LOl, was the air "blue?"  But I fixed it and got it working.  Think that was the laptop playing up. 

Carole 

[RayD]

Just now, carastro said:

LOl, was the air "blue?"  But I fixed it and got it working.  Think that was the laptop playing up. 

Carole 

It was rather tainted  If I recall correctly both Davey-T and myself were edging backwards ever so slowly whilst suggesting you switch it off and back on 

You got it sorted though, and I recall also a very good set of images coming from it, so well done you 

[carastro]

Quote

its only half yours!

Nonsense - If you pay for a ready meal is that only half yours? 

that's not exactly a proper comparison, buying something that normally takes a lot of effort, time, decent weather and skill and thereby bypassing one of the stages is not the same as purchasing something to eat.  I think we are going to have to agree to disagree Paddy, we have already done this topic to death on another forum and I don't think we will ever agree on this.

If you get satisfaction in using downloaded data then fine, I was just saying that I didn't understand it.  A few weeks ago I downloaded some free DSW data of M31 and processed it (out of curiosity), it was a much better image than I could ever hope to get, but I cannot bring myself to post it anywhere because I know it is not my work. 

Another poster above has reduced my suggestion to 1/3, so I think I was being generous saying 1/2.

Carole 

 

 

 

[PatrickGilliland]

25 minutes ago, carastro said:

that's not exactly a proper comparison, buying skills is not the same as purchasing something to eat.  I think we are going to have to agree to disagree Paddy, we have already done this topic to death on another forum and I don't think we will ever agree on this.

Another poster above has reduced my suggestion to 1/3, so I think I was being generous saying 1/2.

Carole 

 

 

 

2

Agree to disagree :). I do respect your views and those who share, I have been that person but ultimately the constraints became too much for me.  Some people just chose to be different or do something different.  Whether people feel this is OK or a lesser form of the hobby is not really important.  We are all in the same hobby and should concentrate on the fun it brings.  

I mean I am sitting down with an exercise on neutron stars and the gravitational impact on other bodies for lunch, how much more fun can one have

 

[Demonperformer]

The trouble with the "it's not yours" approach is where do you draw the line. If I take a holiday at Olly's and use his equipment which I have neither bought nor set up does this make the result any less mine? I can imagine some of the choice comments I would get if I unPA'd & uncollimated his equipment just so I could say it was all my own work!