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New Set up for VAA


Newbs2215

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Hi All,

We are going to be setting up for VAA over the next couple of months. However, as we are at the limited to our backyard due to spouses mobility issues, we have come across a problem.

We were going to purchase a HEQ5 Mount, to go with a Startravel 150 OTA and full guidescope system, as well as an atik infinity camera. This is a decent set up, but at no point in the night or early evening can we actually see or track Polaris. I am aware that we need to accurately Polar align the scope to get good tracking for VAA, but not being able to polar align correctly leaves us with a problem.

I was wondering if there is any hardware  changes we could make or is there a way of polar aligning with access to seeing Polaris.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Newbs2215

 

 

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I'll be interested to see how you get on. Access to astronomy for the less visually abled is a serious issue, and it would be of interest to know what advice to give should my opinion be sought.

VAA / EAA is an option that obviously suggests itself, but I have reservations about this. Firstly, I have experimented with my telescopes and a sensitive video camera, and found that the experience is not the same as observing visually.  Rather, it is more like observing with a 5mm high-power eyepiece only, and getting an object on screen consumes a lot of time.  The opinion has been expressed that those viewing remotely might as well be watching a video.   Also at my astro club we found that young visitors wanted to look through the eyepiece of the main telescope even when there was nothing to be seen on an overcast night!

What do you think about mobility equipment to get the person of restricted mobility in position at the eyepiece?

In response to your Polaris question, I am not particularly familiar with the HEQ5 mount, but I think you'll find that for your purpose you do not need accurate polar alignment at all, and that so long as you can perform a 2-star or 3-star alignment with a GoTo mount, it will track well enough for your purpose.   Accurate polar alignment is helpful to keep a manual mount on track, and needed for long-exposure astrophotography. 

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Some good questions and hopefully can answer some of them given the impression it's first steps in va or EAA.

Video Astronomy is a bridge between visual and astrophotography, and many like myself do all of above,, why because the weather plays a large part on what I can see and time constraints in setting up a specific scope set up.

Setting up heq5,, my method because I can't see the north star is as cosmic Geoff has said,, three star alignment,, I use my smartphone with Google skymap to get me close,, most video imagers use short exposures stacked so we have a bit of leeway,,

I fitted the wifi adapter to my heq5 and use the smartphone app,, million times better than the syncan hand set,, 

There are many ways to do video astronomy and equipment wise can determine what you see Geoff,

I mainly do video astronomy and stand by my view that no one scope or camera can fully cover all types of video astronomy, some come close.

I have the sw explorer 200pds on a heq5 and use different cameras on this for lunar work,,, dslr ,, zwo,,Samsung ,qhy ,,get something different with each camera.

St102 with a Philips webcam,

Sw ed80 with matched sw focal reducer is my favourite and wide field astronomy is my current part of the hobby, and waiting on a ed72 arriving to give even wider fields if view.

But these are only part of the complete va experience,, yes video is a high power eyepiece but visual astromers can see the advantage of video when they can't observe with eye pieces.

Why not watch a video..true have watched lots of great ones but having watched live video streaming on NSN its a poor comparison.. 

Outreach can be fun and if done by a seasoned video astronomer can captivate folk for hours,,

Dragon man ( ken James) snake valley Australia, dr Dave, Simon in south Africa to mention a few put on fantastic broadcasts , 

A colour video camera can change grey smudges to amazing colour images in seconds but it's a learning curve,, many on here have been doing it a long time and saw many folk come and go but stick at it because every day is a school day in va / eaa and it's not the cheap option to astrophotography now

 

 

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Video astronomy for disabled.

Disability comes in many forms when doing astronomy, 

Visually impaired and mobility issues

Video astronomy makes these issues better.

Going from a basic set up,, grab n go style to adapting a set up, it can be as simple or as challenging as you want

For example 

A skywatcher az gti set up, mount is powered via internal batteries and controlled via an app or ascom to a pc,,,,  an analogue camera can give a live feed to a monitor,, ref.. revolution imager system,, OC telescopes ,,very light portable set up,, this would suit visually impaired and wheel chair bound astronomers.

A dslr and lens could substitute the analogue camera and be linked to a laptop,, 

A camfi unit could also be used to transmit images to smart phones and tablets. More astrophotography.

 

One of the systems I'm working on is the PC stick approach,, linking a pc direct on telescope controlling focus and camera ect,, this is linked to a HDMI input monitor and controlled via Bluetooth keyboard or wireless connection to a laptop,

All of above make va easier for disabled Astronomy

 

 

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"Rather, it is more like observing with a 5mm high-power eyepiece only, and getting an object on screen consumes a lot of time."

Rather depends on the kit and I get images stacked via Astrotoaster that start appearing in high detail within 60 secs (just using a small Frac and a DSLR) and I can see a lot more than a 5mm eye piece. All done remotely IN THE WARM AND COMFORT of my office - a must even for someone with no disabilities.

They are a lot of variations on EA/VAA and anything that enables people who would not normally be able to do visual work is a plus plus.

EAA/VA does not do stop anyone doing other forms - like visual etc rather its another tool in the armoury. 

So as Shirva points out there are lots of ways to get involved even without Astro kit.

One thing we all can't control is the weather.

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On 3/4/2018 at 11:03, Newbs2215 said:

Hi All,

We are going to be setting up for VAA over the next couple of months. However, as we are at the limited to our backyard due to spouses mobility issues, we have come across a problem.

We were going to purchase a HEQ5 Mount, to go with a Startravel 150 OTA and full guidescope system, as well as an atik infinity camera. This is a decent set up, but at no point in the night or early evening can we actually see or track Polaris. I am aware that we need to accurately Polar align the scope to get good tracking for VAA, but not being able to polar align correctly leaves us with a problem.

I was wondering if there is any hardware  changes we could make or is there a way of polar aligning with access to seeing Polaris.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Newbs2215

 

 

With the Atik Infinty you dont need an eq mount or Polar alignment, a Alt/Az mount is good enough, also, if you have a laptop connect this to the camera and your image is displayed on the screen, additionally, if you use the infinity and laptop you dont need any eyepieces at all, just a decent finderscope for a 3 star or 2 star auo alignment. SCT's with GOTO are ideal for EAA.

eric

 

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I agree with Eric that an Alt/az Mount is the way to go for backyard VAA.  Simple to set up and the short exposure requirement negates the need for eq tracking.  I have the Celestron Evolution 6 that is easy to handle and set up.  With the Infinity you will need some simple focal reduction to get you to f/5 and you could later invest in Hyperstar for some wide field viewing at f/1.9.  The Evolution comes in 8” and 9.25” versions as well.  I think the 9.25” is getting a little to heavy for the mount.  You can also use the mount for other small scopes.  I recently bought a SV60eds that works well with my Lodestars and Ultrastars for wide field views.  The SX Ultrastar has the same sensor as the Infinity and is controlled by Starlight Live software.  Very intuitive and easy to use.  Available for both Mac and Windows.

Don

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1 hour ago, HiloDon said:

I agree with Eric that an Alt/az Mount is the way to go for backyard VAA.  Simple to set up and the short exposure requirement negates the need for eq tracking.  I have the Celestron Evolution 6 that is easy to handle and set up.  With the Infinity you will need some simple focal reduction to get you to f/5 and you could later invest in Hyperstar for some wide field viewing at f/1.9.  The Evolution comes in 8” and 9.25” versions as well.  I think the 9.25” is getting a little to heavy for the mount.  You can also use the mount for other small scopes.  I recently bought a SV60eds that works well with my Lodestars and Ultrastars for wide field views.  The SX Ultrastar has the same sensor as the Infinity and is controlled by Starlight Live software.  Very intuitive and easy to use.  Available for both Mac and Windows.

Don

Yes it will be the easiest route for newbs2215 to go, I use a 6.3 Fr on my f10 SCT, setup, I am looking at the Skywatcher espirit 80 ed as my next ota and just using the evo 9.25 for any faint objects I may want to look at now and again.  

eric

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What's a "Finder Scope" :laugh2: - For a newbie (still include myself in that bracket) stick with EQ mount if you can stretch your budget go AZEQ e.g. AZEQ5/6 - as you may change your mind ,want a rest from EAA or just to give you "options". 

Plus Platesolving with (e.g) ASCOM/EQMOD makes star finding/alignment simple (ok I am lazy) - no need for Finder Scope etc - and gives you the option to do things remotely in the warm!:icon_biggrin:

In the end its your choice !

Whatever you do/choose - enjoy it and clear skies.

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31 minutes ago, stash_old said:

What's a "Finder Scope" :laugh2: - For a newbie (still include myself in that bracket) stick with EQ mount if you can stretch your budget go AZEQ e.g. AZEQ5/6 - as you may change your mind ,want a rest from EAA or just to give you "options". 

Plus Platesolving with (e.g) ASCOM/EQMOD makes star finding/alignment simple (ok I am lazy) - no need for Finder Scope etc - and gives you the option to do things remotely in the warm!:icon_biggrin:

In the end its your choice !

Whatever you do/choose - enjoy it and clear skies.

I have a Celestron 9x50 Finder scope but recently have been using my Telrad Finder, I disagree with respect that an EQ mount/Platesolving is the best option in this individual case, a simple Alt/Az GOTO with the infinity ( this is what camera the poster indicated) /laptop/power source/Focal Reducer is more suitable, the finder software (button) on the infinity brings the object onto screen (providing initial alignment is accurate) , then the video software (button) coupled with stacking coupled with Auto Range ( box ticks) brings a nice colour image on the screen easy for anyone to see , in a matter of seconds and can track without trails for  120 secs, although for most objects stacks of 5-20 secs are usually adequate, with the infinity its just a case of clicking buttons on the laptop screen easy peazy. then again, just my opinion.

Plus: The infinity is very good at combating LP, I have never used a filter and had good images from my backyard .

Its taken me near to 3 yr to get things nearly right, always learning at this game, always something going wrong that went right last time haha, as you say what ever the OP decides upon - enjoy and hope the  skies/clear nights in Bradford West Yorks are many !!

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3 hours ago, 2STAR said:

I have a Celestron 9x50 Finder scope but recently have been using my Telrad Finder, I disagree with respect that an EQ mount/Platesolving is the best option in this individual case, a simple Alt/Az GOTO with the infinity ( this is what camera the poster indicated) /laptop/power source/Focal Reducer is more suitable, the finder software (button) on the infinity brings the object onto screen (providing initial alignment is accurate) , then the video software (button) coupled with stacking coupled with Auto Range ( box ticks) brings a nice colour image on the screen easy for anyone to see , in a matter of seconds and can track without trails for  120 secs, although for most objects stacks of 5-20 secs are usually adequate, with the infinity its just a case of clicking buttons on the laptop screen easy peazy. then again, just my opinion.

Plus: The infinity is very good at combating LP, I have never used a filter and had good images from my backyard .

Its taken me near to 3 yr to get things nearly right, always learning at this game, always something going wrong that went right last time haha, as you say what ever the OP decides upon - enjoy and hope the  skies/clear nights in Bradford West Yorks are many !!

My quote was based on what I was told when I first took up the hobby - it was something like this " Your mount is  likely the item you will keep the longest ,where as camera's ,scopes,eye pieces will change quite frequently as tech move on - therefore spend as much as you can on the mount at the beginning and it will keep you in good stead for the future". I have found this to be very true - even though I ignored it to start with and bought mounts that I later regretted buying. 

 

As for the "what's a finder" it was said "tongue in cheek" - hence the laughing emoji .

He did ask for opinions !

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I have both alt az and eq mounts,, what is best ,, really depends on what you want to do,,  alt az is good for a grab n go quick set up system ,,and I have the az gti and allview mounts,, no complaints on any of these mounts,, but they do use both motors to track in RA,, and ,, in my honest opinion for my mounts, slight adjustments are required periodically,,

Now my eq3 pro was my first eq mount and it's a great starting point and upgraded to the heq5 pro, and yes I'm totally delighted with its capacity ,looks and performance,, it just kicks all my mounts into touch,, but yet again it's more expensive,,  and like old stash,, get a good mount and your sorted,, 

The eq mount once finished it's GOTO only need's one motor,, so unless it has faults it has less tracking issues,, but if you buy a couple of grand alt az set up ,, I'd say you are OK as well,,lol ?.

I've built my video astronomy kit for the last seven years and there is always a new toy to play with or a new technique,, what's relevant today is old news next year,,, relax..

Plug away do what suits your needs and budget,,  but it's a hobby and if we get stuck there's always help available,, and taking in every reply a solution can be achieved

 

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Of course to answer your orig ? about Polar alignment without being able to see Polaris using your proposed HEQ5 etc then read this https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/551669-polar-alignment-without-polaris-being-visible/ especially about "drift alignment" ,which is not required for EAA ,but answers your ?  Note the simple compass (or as Shirva said Google SkyMap) set up which at least gets you near  without Polaris in sight -  Dont forget to mark where your tripod legs go on the ground once you are set up correct so that you should not need to do it all again - especially if you decide on Drift Alignment method and don't want to do it every time you set up - again assuming you buy the HEQ5 (or other eq mount). Celestron  mounts(some ??) include a feature called All-Star Polar Alignment which doesn't need polaris

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Newbs2215 ... I'm a retired Engineer whose been into 'observing with a camera' for 3 years now with both AltAz and Eq mounts and many types of scopes. At one point I owned 4 different cameras. Here's my point by point take on your questions given the experiences I've had. 

1. The hand control's of all GEM's have a built in PA routine which does not (!) require you to see Polaris at all. I have never ever used a polar scope to do PA. The hand control routine are really easy to use and do not (!) require you to pick any stars near the pole in order for it to work. On my HEQ5 PRO GEM mount I get great goto accuracy and 90 second tracking without star trails. I have never had to use autoguider doing VA. I will also post up a tip for getting close to PA in a second post after this one.

2. You can most certainly do VA on AltAz. I've done so many times! Because of field rotation effects (stars all around the edges of an image are rotating about the centroid of the image)  you are limited to how long you can expose in different parts of the sky. Some parts only 5 sec frames before you get field rotation, and other parts up to 50 sec frames (if a good altaz mount - but generally max out at around 25 secs if using something like a Nexstar / entry level). Google to find charts and tables for max alt az exposure times so your latitude. AltAz actually makes it quite rewarding because (a) you are doing something which is not as easy as simply using a GEM; and (b) you have to plan more to wait for object to rotate into the 'good/longer exposure' parts of the sky during the night (or even later in the year) to get longer exposures to 'see' it and capture an image to keep as your observing log. 

3. If you have done visual astronomy at all, then you'll understand what you can 'see' (IE FOV/magnification) with different size eyepieces on your scope. The simple way to understand what camera will suit a particular scope you have ... it is the diagonal dimension in mm of the sensor of the camera you get told about. If the sensor diagonal is 23mm then it will yield a very similar FOV/magnification as an eyepiece of similar mm size IE a 20mm or 23mm or 25mm eyepiece inserted into your scope. A very small sensor camera, like the old original security cameras converted for VA, had very small 5mm diagonal sensors. So they behaved like a 5mm eyepiece ... IE very narrow FOV/very high magnification. Which may have lead the poster earlier in this thread saying it was extremely hard to find, centre and align etc with a VA camera on the scope. Thats correct if using a small sensored camera - because it yield such a high magnification/narrow FOV, so it needs very accurate gotos from your mount or else you land off target and have no idea which way to move the thing to find the object! Of course it also depends on what scope you are using too. IE a short focal length scope of low magnification will handle a small highly magnifying sensor much better than sticking the same highly magnifying sensor onto a very long high magnification scope! Google for "12dstring FOV calc" and its a great tool to click on a huge number of scopes and cameras and objects to 'see' what you can view ..... and do that before (!) you plonk your cash down!

4. IMHO larger sensored cameras which yield great FOV are the way to go, because you can always zoom into the image if the object is small. Whereas if you use a small high magnification camera/sensor then you cannot 'zoom out'! But ... always a catch ... large sensors are far more likely to vignette. If you dont know what that is .... google it. So before buying a camera always ask on as many forums as you can if anyone has used that camera with your particular scope, or one with similar specs IE close to same focal length and aperture. 

5. The biggest issue IMHO is learning how to get the best out of the software which is required to do VA/EAA. Thats where the learning curve is! They will all work and work well but its a challenge. Having said that, some folk find Sharpcap very easy to learn and use, and others dont! They find something else better and easier to use and get better results. And vice versa. So the software is where I think you'll wonder why you trusted all the people recommending this rig and camera or that rig and camera. 

cheers

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Said I'd post up a quick tip on PA with a GEM when you cannot see the pole... 

The star alignment and PA routine built into the hand controls...... 

1. Dont forget that second alignment is necessary after doing the PA routine! The sequence is always first 2 or 3 star alignment followed by PA routine followed by second 2 or 3 star alignment.

2. The alignment routine and also the PA routine selects stars for you to use assuming you can actually see the pole. So the tip is ... if it selects a star you cannot see because it is near the pole, don't sweat it ... just use any star it suggests which you can see. 

3. Dont forget that second alignment is necessary after doing the PA routine! The sequence is always first 2 or 3 star alignment followed by PA routine followed by second 2 or 3 star alignment. Not a mistake writing this up a second time !!! LOL ... you'd be amazed how often it gets forgotten! 

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On 3/7/2018 at 04:28, Howie_Oz said:

Newbs2215 ... I'm a retired Engineer whose been into 'observing with a camera' for 3 years now with both AltAz and Eq mounts and many types of scopes. At one point I owned 4 different cameras. Here's my point by point take on your questions given the experiences I've had. 

1. The hand control's of all GEM's have a built in PA routine which does not (!) require you to see Polaris at all. I have never ever used a polar scope to do PA. The hand control routine are really easy to use and do not (!) require you to pick any stars near the pole in order for it to work. On my HEQ5 PRO GEM mount I get great goto accuracy and 90 second tracking without star trails. I have never had to use autoguider doing VA. I will also post up a tip for getting close to PA in a second post after this one.

2. You can most certainly do VA on AltAz. I've done so many times! Because of field rotation effects (stars all around the edges of an image are rotating about the centroid of the image)  you are limited to how long you can expose in different parts of the sky. Some parts only 5 sec frames before you get field rotation, and other parts up to 50 sec frames (if a good altaz mount - but generally max out at around 25 secs if using something like a Nexstar / entry level). Google to find charts and tables for max alt az exposure times so your latitude. AltAz actually makes it quite rewarding because (a) you are doing something which is not as easy as simply using a GEM; and (b) you have to plan more to wait for object to rotate into the 'good/longer exposure' parts of the sky during the night (or even later in the year) to get longer exposures to 'see' it and capture an image to keep as your observing log. 

3. If you have done visual astronomy at all, then you'll understand what you can 'see' (IE FOV/magnification) with different size eyepieces on your scope. The simple way to understand what camera will suit a particular scope you have ... it is the diagonal dimension in mm of the sensor of the camera you get told about. If the sensor diagonal is 23mm then it will yield a very similar FOV/magnification as an eyepiece of similar mm size IE a 20mm or 23mm or 25mm eyepiece inserted into your scope. A very small sensor camera, like the old original security cameras converted for VA, had very small 5mm diagonal sensors. So they behaved like a 5mm eyepiece ... IE very narrow FOV/very high magnification. Which may have lead the poster earlier in this thread saying it was extremely hard to find, centre and align etc with a VA camera on the scope. Thats correct if using a small sensored camera - because it yield such a high magnification/narrow FOV, so it needs very accurate gotos from your mount or else you land off target and have no idea which way to move the thing to find the object! Of course it also depends on what scope you are using too. IE a short focal length scope of low magnification will handle a small highly magnifying sensor much better than sticking the same highly magnifying sensor onto a very long high magnification scope! Google for "12dstring FOV calc" and its a great tool to click on a huge number of scopes and cameras and objects to 'see' what you can view ..... and do that before (!) you plonk your cash down!

4. IMHO larger sensored cameras which yield great FOV are the way to go, because you can always zoom into the image if the object is small. Whereas if you use a small high magnification camera/sensor then you cannot 'zoom out'! But ... always a catch ... large sensors are far more likely to vignette. If you dont know what that is .... google it. So before buying a camera always ask on as many forums as you can if anyone has used that camera with your particular scope, or one with similar specs IE close to same focal length and aperture. 

5. The biggest issue IMHO is learning how to get the best out of the software which is required to do VA/EAA. Thats where the learning curve is! They will all work and work well but its a challenge. Having said that, some folk find Sharpcap very easy to learn and use, and others dont! They find something else better and easier to use and get better results. And vice versa. So the software is where I think you'll wonder why you trusted all the people recommending this rig and camera or that rig and camera. 

cheers

The OP mentioned maybe getting the Atik Infinity , on a decent Alt/Az mount it will track and Video for well in excess of 25 secs with no Star trailing whatsoever, the camera is so good that I have never had to go above 35secs myself, but some have stacked well over this, thats my only reason for the reply with the OP thinking of buying the specific Camera.  And of course with the need to cater for the less physical abled coupled with a Laptop & power source it is ideal/ for both visually impaired and physically restricted folk.

 regards eric

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