Saw bands on Jupiter for the first time this morning

[Jay F]

It has been snowy and cloudy lately, so I had a little hiatus.  Now that it has been clear again, it has been too cold to enjoy being outside for long, below 0F (-15C or thereabouts) for days now in the mornings.  But I'm doing the dining room window observations of Jupiter on the days I don't work.  This morning was so exciting!  I guess the sky was clear and the air clean and still after the last snowstorm, and I watched Jupiter until the sun came up, using a 6mm eyepiece with #8 yellow filter.  I could see three of the moons, AND for the first time, I could make out the 2 darkest bands on Jupiter!  Even through the glass pane of the dining room window and the street lamp glare down at the corner.  This is with a small 114mm reflector, and I had kind of thought that wouldn't be possible with that scope, but it was truly there.  Atmospheric conditions must have been just right. Couldn't take my eyes off it for over an hour, until it finally faded out and the sun was shining brightly outside.

One interesting side discovery is that the planet really appeared to become smaller and less significant the lighter the sky became, even though the bands were still present.  Somehow, the brightness of Jupiter against the black sky is just phenomenal, and makes it look huge, and I'm guessing our brains process it differently than when it seems to be a dimmer object against a bluer background.  It seemed to not so much fade away as shrink out of sight. 

(No doubt this is something jewelers have known for centuries, and explains why they always display their baubles against black velvet backgrounds)

I have also been watching Jupiter and Mars since the convergence, mostly from my car on the way to work in the mornings.  I work at a ski area in the mountains at 10,000 feet, and I have to be there at 6am so I drive up in the dark.  The air up there, as long as it's not snowing, is remarkably clear, and even without any visual assistance, the views have been wonderful (much better than jewels on black velvet :-))

I can't wait for warmer weather so I can really spend some time and concentrate on finding new (to me) objects!

[John]

Very interesting post Jay

Jupiter, to me, definately shows more detail and contrast against a twilight sky than against a really black one.

 

 

[Stu]

Great report Jay. You are doing well under difficult circumstances i.e. observing through the window, the views will get better once you are outside and also when Jupiter is larger in the sky at opposition.

Interesting effect you talk about in terms of Jupiter appearing to shrink in daylight. On the morning of the conjunction I followed both planets right through until they were pretty hard to see. Jupiter shows an effect called limb darkening; literally that the edges are darker than the centre, and I wonder if this could be the cause? If the edges are darker they will fade first in daylight making the planet appear smaller?

Anyway, thanks for the post and good luck with future observing. Any chance you can get that scope up to 10,000 feet? Will be amazing up there!!

[Ibbo!]

it would even better without the window in the way.

Hope it warms up so you can get outside .

10,000 ' will make a lot of difference than we get at sea level or near sea level.

 

 

[Jay F]

31 minutes ago, John said:

Very interesting post Jay

Jupiter, to me, definately shows more detail and contrast against a twilight sky than against a really black one.

 

 

Now that you say that, I didn't actually notice the bands when the sky was darker, only when it was half-way to light.  Even then, it took me a few minutes to realize what those darker stripes were :-)  I'll have to take a look again in the morning and see if they are more pronounced in the lighter sky.  Interesting...

[Jay F]

31 minutes ago, Stu said:

Great report Jay. You are doing well under difficult circumstances i.e. observing through the window, the views will get better once you are outside and also when Jupiter is larger in the sky at opposition.

Interesting effect you talk about in terms of Jupiter appearing to shrink in daylight. On the morning of the conjunction I followed both planets right through until they were pretty hard to see. Jupiter shows an effect called limb darkening; literally that the edges are darker than the centre, and I wonder if this could be the cause? If the edges are darker they will fade first in daylight making the planet appear smaller?

Anyway, thanks for the post and good luck with future observing. Any chance you can get that scope up to 10,000 feet? Will be amazing up there!!

Limb darkening...that's a new concept for me.  Very intriguing.  I'll have to do some research on that.  That would certainly explain it.  Thanks!

I do look forward to spring, and fully intend to bring the scope up to those higher altitudes.  I KNOW it will make a huge difference!

[Stu]

3 hours ago, Jay F said:

Limb darkening...that's a new concept for me.  Very intriguing.  I'll have to do some research on that.  That would certainly explain it.  Thanks!

Some images to get you started, plus the Wiki page. The same applies to the sun.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limb_darkening

[Stu]

I tried this to simulate what I'm talking about. I inverted Jupiter then upped the exposure to simulate the sky getting brighter and it gets smaller. It's not exactly the same effect but it shows what I mean hopefully. Might be something in it.

 

[Jay F]

Most interesting @Stu, and thanks for taking the time it took to post this.  Makes perfect sense that Jupiter would seem smaller as the sky gets lighter, now that I've seen the photos and the explanations on wiki.  

I'm (more than) a little rusty on the math, it's been quite some time since my college calculus classes :-)  Yet, I do know that understanding the math is essential to understanding everything else in the cosmos.  

That's actually what I've been doing on these cold snowy nights,  digging back into my old calculus/laws of motion textbooks and a new quantum physics book I just bought, and trying to get back up to speed on that.  It's slow going but really interesting. 

I really appreciate your sharing your knowledge, it makes me aware of how much I don't know, and gives me the motivation to go out and learn it.  Many thanks, my friend.

 

[Hayduke27]

I recently saw the bands for my first time, and it is super mesmerizing!  Jupiter is an awesome sight.  I have been up early in the mornings as well and usually pull my binos out for a quick look.   I have been able to make out the moons even in my binos!  It's a great way to start the morning.  

[Hayduke27]

17 hours ago, Jay F said:

I do look forward to spring, and fully intend to bring the scope up to those higher altitudes.  I KNOW it will make a huge difference!

I started a thread in which we discussed high altitude viewing, there is some interesting information on that topic here -->

High Altitude Viewing

The gist of it is that once you get over about 8,000 feet, the thinner air and lack of oxygen causes our eyes to see light less efficiently, and it sort of cancels out the thinner air in terms of better seeing.  Anyway, check it out if you want.

[Jay F]

@Hayduke27, I wasn't aware of that.  Just finished reading your discussion about high altitude, and found some interesting ideas in there.

Sounds like we are living in pretty much the same environment.  I'm at about 8000 feet right here where I live, in Colorado also.  I have lived above 7500 feet for most of my life, and spent most of my working life between 9000-12000 feet (Forest Service and Ski Area seasonal work).  I am semi-retired now, but still spend a lot of time in the summers in the wilderness camping above 10,000.  I wonder if being acclimated for all those years makes a difference in how your eyes/brain process light.

Just from a naked eye standpoint, when I go to the MV wildlife refuge at slightly less than 8000 feet and compare it with Wolf Creek at 10,000 feet (both very dark sites with very little light pollution) I would say that they are both quite clear and the stars seem pretty bright, but they do APPEAR to be clearer and brighter in the higher elevations.  Then again, maybe it's just my imagination...or oxygen deprivation is just making me think that :-)

Have you noticed a significant difference in your own viewing experiences one way or the other?

BTW, I've been a huge fan of the Monkey Wrench Gang since it first came out, and really all of Edward Abbey's work :-)  Unfortunately for us here in the western US,  his worst-case scenarios all seem to have come true.

 

[John]

If you get over 8,000 feet here in the UK you are flying 3,600 feet over the highest mountain top (Ben Nevis in Scotland) ! . My back yard is just 300 ft up and the seeing is usually a little better here than when I've observed more or less at sea level.

On the topic of seeing detail on Jupiter, I agree that the bands and other features are more distinct when the planet is viewed against a twilight sky. As the sky gets darker (I most often observe in the evenings when the planet is visible then) it can get harder to pick out the more subtle details.

With my 120mm refractor I have managed to pull out some quite nice Jovian detail at times. This (rather basic) sketch was done using that scope a few years back:

 

[Jay F]

@John, great sketch!  All I could make out so far was the two main bands.  They did look pretty much like that, although without the red spot.  If it was there, I couldn't make it out, but possibly it was on the other side of the planet at the time.  This gives me hope that I may one day distinguish that myself. 

I'm going to watch in the mornings again for that twilight period sweet spot and see if I can get some more detail, like you show.  I may have to wait until it gets a little warmer outside in the mornings so that I can go to a dark-sky place and spend some time outside with it. 

Thanks for the post and for sharing the sketch.  I'm saving it to my own system to refer to later,  if you don't mind.

 

[Hayduke27]

15 hours ago, Jay F said:

@Hayduke27, I wasn't aware of that.  Just finished reading your discussion about high altitude, and found some interesting ideas in there.

Sounds like we are living in pretty much the same environment.  I'm at about 8000 feet right here where I live, in Colorado also.  I have lived above 7500 feet for most of my life, and spent most of my working life between 9000-12000 feet (Forest Service and Ski Area seasonal work).  I am semi-retired now, but still spend a lot of time in the summers in the wilderness camping above 10,000.  I wonder if being acclimated for all those years makes a difference in how your eyes/brain process light.

Just from a naked eye standpoint, when I go to the MV wildlife refuge at slightly less than 8000 feet and compare it with Wolf Creek at 10,000 feet (both very dark sites with very little light pollution) I would say that they are both quite clear and the stars seem pretty bright, but they do APPEAR to be clearer and brighter in the higher elevations.  Then again, maybe it's just my imagination...or oxygen deprivation is just making me think that :-)

Have you noticed a significant difference in your own viewing experiences one way or the other?

BTW, I've been a huge fan of the Monkey Wrench Gang since it first came out, and really all of Edward Abbey's work :-)  Unfortunately for us here in the western US,  his worst-case scenarios all seem to have come true.

 

Good morning Jay.  Like you, I've been living at this altitude for my whole life, and was even born up here so I imagine I'm well acclimatized.  As you saw in the forum thread I posted, I was very curious about possibly taking my set-up to the top of a pass or somewhere I could drive above 10,000ft.  However, I will say that subsequently I have found that there is not much difference in viewing between 7,000ft and 9,000ft in terms of overall sky transparency (other than weather factors, of course).  The biggest factor determining how well I can see the really faint deep sky objects is the darkness of the sky.  Up here in Gunnison we don't have any major cities or even large towns nearby, so I can very easily escape just a few miles outside of town and have incredibly dark skies.  I find the humidity also has a big effect, especially in the cold, as high humidity seems to bring with it suspended ice crystals, and even clear dark nights end up being less transparent because of all the floating debris in the air.  The take-away I suppose is rather than trying to lug all of your gear up too high, I'd just get as far away as you can from the lights!  In Colorado we are blessed to still have ample areas with minimal light pollution!

 

The Monkey Wrench Gang has been one of my all-time favorites even since I first read it.  I think the book's relevancy is on a huge rebound these days, unfortunately.  Hopefully we can save some wide open spaces and dark skies for nature-lovers the future to enjoy.