Davenn Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Hi guys After seeing a lack of solar imaging talk in the imaging discussion and thinking my thread may get lost in there decided this is probably a better place where the active solar imaging guys are. I am using the 6MP ZWO ASI 178MC (colour camera) on my LUNT LS60THa with Sharpcap capture software and have a couple of questions regarding the use of..... I read in another thread some one saying that a mono cam is better than a colour one as it gives better resolution I have been often using the mono mode in Sharpcap and I seem to notice it is better quality than in colour mode. 1) Is Sharpcap actually putting the 178MC into a true mono mode, or is the image just being desaturated in software ? 2) If it is putting the 178MC into mono mode, is that good enough, or am I still better off buying a mono cam ? Hopefully someone can "shed some light" ( pun intended) on that for me please regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tuomo Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 1) No software can turn colour camera in to mono camera. Most likely it is just turning colours to grayscale, or something. I could write long wall of text about the differences between mono and colour camera, but I wont do it. Dont have enough knowledge or time. Long story short: https://www.atik-cameras.com/news/mono-colour/ Ps. Mono beats colour camera every time, even in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightBucket Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 7 minutes ago, Tuomo said: Ps. Mono beats colour camera every time, even in time. Absolute rubbish...sorry but that is a broad statement to make... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelius Varley Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 21 minutes ago, LightBucket said: Absolute rubbish...sorry but that is a broad statement to make... There are SGL members who will disagree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uplooker Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 36 minutes ago, LightBucket said: Absolute rubbish...sorry but that is a broad statement to make... Not so. If you are doing HA solar imaging, you are capturing the near infra-red, thereby a colour camera is only utilising a 1/4 of the available pixels, due to the Bayer matrix. Therefor a mono camera will win hands down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbo! Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Solar ha - mono every time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin66 Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 My choice for solar imaging is definitely a mono camera. I went for the ASI 174MM, notwithstanding the known issues with Newton Rings (easily fixed with a tilter). For the spectroheliograph I need a frame rate as high as possible (and a fast computer with SSD drives). The ASI 174MM works well for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbie alert Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 11 minutes ago, Uplooker said: Not so. If you are doing HA solar imaging, you are capturing the near infra-red, thereby a colour camera is only utilising a 1/4 of the available pixels, due to the Bayer matrix. Therefor a mono camera will win hands down. True..but isn't that the same with rgb..as in a mono camera using filters is designating a colour to every pixel..where as the Bayer matrix is every 4th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin66 Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Solar Ha narrow band imaging is something else again. Nothing to do with RGB or filters..... The Ha emission line is only 2A (0.2nm) wide, centred on 6563A - in the Red region of the spectrum. You want to record this on every pixel across the chip, with as high a QE as can be achieved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uplooker Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 46 minutes ago, newbie alert said: True..but isn't that the same with rgb..as in a mono camera using filters is designating a colour to every pixel..where as the Bayer matrix is every 4th With a mono camera when using filters, all pixels are capturing what ever light the filter being used will allow to pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightBucket Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Cornelius Varley said: There are SGL members who will disagree with that. Maybe so, but I am not one of them....in certain situation yes mono wins, but also in certain situations OSC wins, I am not just talking about solar imaging, but across the field...I would say 60, 40 in favour of mono, there is plenty of room for OSC in this hobby.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Smith Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 If you are buying a camera purely on the basis of using it for solar then definitely go mono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibbo! Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Mono also scores in LP areas so you can use narrowband filters, just like where I live. And seeing this is posted in the solar section defo mono all the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarsG76 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 5 hours ago, Davenn said: Hi guys After seeing a lack of solar imaging talk in the imaging discussion and thinking my thread may get lost in there decided this is probably a better place where the active solar imaging guys are. I am using the 6MP ZWO ASI 178MC (colour camera) on my LUNT LS60THa with Sharpcap capture software and have a couple of questions regarding the use of..... I read in another thread some one saying that a mono cam is better than a colour one as it gives better resolution I have been often using the mono mode in Sharpcap and I seem to notice it is better quality than in colour mode. 1) Is Sharpcap actually putting the 178MC into a true mono mode, or is the image just being desaturated in software ? 2) If it is putting the 178MC into mono mode, is that good enough, or am I still better off buying a mono cam ? Hopefully someone can "shed some light" ( pun intended) on that for me please regards Dave If its a color cam than the software just desaturates it, you really dont gain anything by doing this. For solar imaging, a mono camera is definitely the best to use, you get to use the full resolution of the sensor for the image.... solar imaging is basically mono, even if you shoot white light but definitely Halpha.. they are definitely better since on the sun you only really record one color... in the case of Halpha it deep red. If you use a color cam you basically lose the resolution you would get in the Green and Blue pixels, so essentially you're only getting 25% of the resolution... if you can, I recommend getting a mono cam for solar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarsG76 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 5 hours ago, LightBucket said: Absolute rubbish...sorry but that is a broad statement to make... Not so absolute, but of course, from personal experience I find that color cameras are beneficial in certain imaging, such as planetary like Jupiter that rotates so fast that at high focal length the rotation can actually blur the image. To date, my best image of Jupiter has been taken with the Skyris 618C, the OSC captured more data and I got more detail than I managed using a mono camera through RGB filters.. for Mars on the other hand.. RGB was much better.... There is no one solution for all I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarsG76 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 4 hours ago, newbie alert said: True..but isn't that the same with rgb..as in a mono camera using filters is designating a colour to every pixel..where as the Bayer matrix is every 4th Thats exactly what it is, except the bayer utilises only 1/4 of the pixels, the other 75% are blocked by the bayer.... in Halpha solar imaging you would never use any filters, so you hit 100% of the pixles with the HAlpha photons... But because the photos are from the red end of the spectrum, in a OSC camera, only the red pixel would allow the photos to pass (and even then not all of them but sensitivity is another matter). the green and blue baye matrix filters would completly blick the Solar HII photos.... Its like if you used filters on a mono camera ... Not taking into account filter blocking or leakage, if you used a RED filter, than the photos would pass and hit every pixel on the sensor... but if you used a green or blue filter than all photos would be blocked and no photos would hit the sensor... later combined, you would get a pure red image.... so Green and blue filters are pointless, might as well just use the mono with no filters and get a full res mono image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davenn Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 Thanks everyone for your responses Appreciated When I bought the ASI178MC, I was considering a wide range of use from solar to planetary to deep space ... and knowing I was not optimising for anything in particular The ASI 178MC was around Australian $549 which was in my affordable range as a general use unit. 5 hours ago, Merlin66 said: I went for the ASI 174MM, notwithstanding the known issues with Newton Rings (easily fixed with a tilter). Hi Merlin Yes, I had heard about this and but not this "tilter" thing of which you speak .... any further info would be welcomed I guess this leads to my next Q's ..... are there any preferences out there for good quality under the ~ AU$800 price I will go looking and maybe post a few model numbers to see if anyone has had experience with them. would prefer that to buying randomly and finding I could have done better because the shop didn't have any hands on experience with a certain model Is there any preference of CCD over CMOS ? you are welcome to make recommendations and I can go check on price and availability thanks again Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davenn Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 OK ZWO ASI 290MM 2.1MP @ AU$544 nicely affordable https://www.bintel.com.au/product/zwo-asi-290mm-low-noise-read-camera/ I have seen a few models ( like this one above) talking about being "Back Illuminated" not really sure of the significance of that ? As @Merlin66 mentioned, the .... ZWO ASI174MM Monochrome appears to be around 2.3MP -- @ AU771 ..... https://www.bintel.com.au/product/zwo-asi-174mm-monochrome/ But is this Newton's Rings issues an off-putting problem ? -- I need to know more about the fix and how easy it is to implement ? Or do I just say " screw the price" and lash out on a .... ZWO ASI1600MM Monochrome 16MP @ AU$1272 ? https://www.bintel.com.au/product/zwo-asi1600mm-monochrome/ I would prefer not to spend that sort of money unless it was really going to be amazingly superior or do I just go for the monochrome version of my ASI 178 ... the ZWO ASI178MM-C Cooled Monochrome Astronomy Camera -- 6.4MP @AU$890 ? https://www.bintel.com.au/product/zwo-asi178mm-c-cooled-monochrome/ Anyone got one or a mate that has one and can comment on it's performance ? Does it also suffer from the Newton's Rings issue ? This solar astronomy has already cost me AU$5500 in the last half of 2017 .... so don't really want spend heaps more unless it can be justified regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin66 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Dave, Firstly, if you're into solar imaging you don't need a cooled camera - you need a fast frame (USB3) mono camera with pixel sizes to match your scope focal length, to give a good plate scale. (Say 0.5 arcsec/pixel for high resolution) The size of the chip is not as important - the full solar disk is roughly 1/97 the focal length - for a 1000mm fl this means a 10.3mm diameter image; if your chip is larger than that then you could record a full disk image. The ASI 174 doesn't show NR in all applications but is known to be susceptible to them. Mine only shows up when using the x2.5 powermate. It's an easy fix.... I use the ZWO T2 tilter adaptor - job done! I've no experience with the other cameras mentioned nor have I seen much about them on the Solar Chat site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davenn Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 47 minutes ago, Merlin66 said: Dave, Firstly, if you're into solar imaging you don't need a cooled camera yes, I realise this it just happened to be a feature of the mono version of what I already have and as I am likely to also use it for nitetime work, that feature would be handy 50 minutes ago, Merlin66 said: with pixel sizes to match your scope focal length, to give a good plate scale. (Say 0.5 arcsec/pixel for high resolution) This something that has never been explained to me 51 minutes ago, Merlin66 said: The size of the chip is not as important - the full solar disk is roughly 1/97 the focal length - for a 1000mm fl this means a 10.3mm diameter image; if your chip is larger than that then you could record a full disk image OK .... I just want to make sure I don't have to mess around with doing mosaics rather than full disk that I can currently do with the ASI 178MC for solar, will be mainly be used on my Lunt LS60THa which has a 500mm FL 55 minutes ago, Merlin66 said: The ASI 174 doesn't show NR in all applications but is known to be susceptible to them. Mine only shows up when using the x2.5 powermate. It's an easy fix.... I use the ZWO T2 tilter adaptor - job done! thanks for that info I assume the top image banding is the NR's ? and the bottom image corrected with the adaptor ? .... huge difference OK on your location too ...... I'm up in West Ryde, inner west Sydney thanks lots Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin66 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Yes, the T2 tilter does the job. I ended up with separate cameras; the ASI 174 for solar and the ATiK 314 for spectroscopy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakalwe Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 If you are aiming for HA solar imaging then a mono is the only sensible answer. Yes, there's a worthwhile debate in DSO and planetary imaging to use OSC, but in HA solar imaging there is no debate. Mono wins hands down. Another thing to consider is the shutter type. A rolling electronic shutter can cause artefacts when using high frame rates. ideally you want a sensor with a global shutter (ASI 174). The other thing to consider is the pixel size. The ASI 174 has 5.86um pixels which are too large for a Lunt 60mm. When I use my 174 on my L60 I get "blocky" artefacts on fine solar proms. It's just about OK with a 2.5 barlow. Really you need something with smaller pixels. Perhaps something like the Point Grey Chameleon 3- 3.45um pixels. https://www.ptgrey.com/chameleon3-50-mp-mono-usb3-vision-sonyimx264 The 174 works superbly with a Quark as you are imaging at >f20. it also makes a great Lunar camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craney Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 So.. In summary, before my pop corn runs out. . . . Buy one of each, one cooled for night time. Right then, moving forward as they say.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakalwe Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 5 hours ago, Craney said: So.. In summary, before my pop corn runs out. . . . Buy one of each, one cooled for night time. Right then, moving forward as they say.... Thats what I did. ASI 1600 cooled for night time. ASI 174mm for Lunar and solar. I've used the 1600 for solar occasionally. I prefer the fast frame-rate of the 174. Plus my 1600 is horrendously affected by NRs. The 174 is to an extent, but it's sorted with the Rowan Astronomy tilt adapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carastro Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 I go along with the Mono team, you get far more detail with a mono camera, especially with solar, however OSC does have it's advantages in the case of Jupiter. I did take an image of Jupiter a few years ago with a mono camera, and though I got much better detail with it than I have got with a OSC, at the time did not have a way of attaching a filterwheel. So...... I am planning my first attempt at Jupiter using a mono camera and filter wheel this year as I was never satisfied with the amount of detail I get with a OSC, so that remains to be seen how successful that will be. Carole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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