Vixen ED103S or SW 100ED for SW AZ GTi mount?

[osbourne one-nil]

Time for me to get going again after a year's lull and the AZ GTi mount really piqued my interest; lightweight, goto, tracking and the freedom find facility which I used to love in my (MUCH heavier AZ EQ5). I've got a Berlebach UNI18 which should be a good match with the mount head. 

Now, I've currently "only" got an SW80ED. I know, having had an FC100D in the past that 4" fracs keep me happy. Decent aperture, no cool down, no collimation problems, eyepiece always nicely placed etc etc, so I'm wanting to also grab a 4" scope to go with the mount. As much as I loved my old FC100D, I'm not going to fork out on one of those again any time soon. I'm currently thinking the Vixen ED103S looks a good match. Lightweight, relatively short tube and great reviews, but about twice the price of the SW100ED and without the extras the SW comes with. I'm sure the SW is very close in terms of optical performance (and I never get too long to dwell on such things up here anyway) but with the longer tube, might it be pushing things too much?

Any advice or experience gratefully received. 

[25585]

No handset with the WiFi. You would need to buy one separately. 

The SW Discovery Alt Az mount has the same weight 5kg limit & comes with hand set. Also has FreedomFind so you can take over but not lose tracking. Cheaper. 

[osbourne one-nil]

Good point - I'd not actually thought about the discovery mount, but then I'm not a fan of the handsets anyway, and last time I had a goto mount, I ran it off my Sky Safari app anyway. 

Of course, I could just bite the bullet, get a 5" apo and an AZ EQ6 mount and be done with it. I've moved to Penrith from a tiny village, but my garden in the middle of town doesn't have a single street light in view, whereas my garden in the remote tiny little hamlet had over a dozen sodium lamps visible! I won't have to carry anything far. Even if I went out into the Lakes, I'd just pull up at a National Trust car park and need to carry the scope 20yds of so. 

Hmmmmmmm. 

[Stu]

The beauty of the AZGTi is that it holds the scope on the outside of the mount, so no problem getting to the zenith. The AZ may well do that too, given its raked back angle but I do like the little AZGTi.

I got a handset from Astroboot for a cheaper price, but it is by no means mandatory unless you want to use SkySafari on iOS. A cheaper route would be to buy an Android phone or tablet, that works directly using the Synscan app.

Piers, I would tend to err on the side of caution and stick to the shorter, lighter Vixen. Lovely scope anyway, and will give a wider fov, but shared thoughts are that a Tak FC-100 DL might be too much for the AZGTi due to its length, and the 100ED is probably heavier and similar length. You want stable high power views.

You will probably also want a short pier to avoid any leg clashes, I now use the Skywatcher one and it works beautifully. The standard tripod is too lightweight, but your Uni will be ideal.

Good to see you back  

[25585]

Bigger allows for bigger heavier scopes in future. 

I often think a sufficiently tall & stable push-to Dobsonian mount for refractors would be ideal rather than expensive GEM types for Goto. 

[osbourne one-nil]

Thanks Stu - good to be back! I think the Vixen, Uni 18 and AZ Gti could be loaded into the car in one piece and lifted out nicely. It might just be the perfect compromise. 

Do you happen to know if either my EQ5 or EQ6 heads for my tripod will fit the AZ GTi, or would I need an adapter? I never know what thread diameters are used. 

[osbourne one-nil]

2 minutes ago, 25585 said:

Bigger allows for bigger heavier scopes in future. 

I often think a sufficiently tall & stable push-to Dobsonian mount for refractors would be ideal rather than expensive GEM types for Goto. 

In the past I've seen some dob-type mounts for refractors which sat on top of tripods and they looked wonderful. If I had tools (and skills) I'd make one myself. 

[Stu]

1 minute ago, 25585 said:

Bigger allows for bigger heavier scopes in future. 

True, but it can also put you off observing. I've had bigger mounts in the past, but have spent more time observing with the Tak/AZGTi combination than any other setup I've had. It is a one handed lift out into the garden with a very quick setup time. Ideal in my eyes. I even carried the whole lot 1/4 mile down the road to the Heath a few weeks back, quite easy.

[osbourne one-nil]

Last year I had a T-Rex mount which handled a 140mm refractor very comfortably. But it was heavy...and as Stu says, it stopped it being a spur of the moment thing to go outside with it. If I get this setup, this time next year I'll be thinking about a 14" dob!

[25585]

The Vixen 103 frac is light acc to FLO as 3.5kg. For a small Goto that's ideal. Seems like a good match. 

[osbourne one-nil]

Yeah - looks a winner to me. Vixen often get overlooked but whenever I've had anything of theirs, it's always been top-notch. 

I think I'm about to take the plunge. 

[Stu]

18 minutes ago, osbourne one-nil said:

Thanks Stu - good to be back! I think the Vixen, Uni 18 and AZ Gti could be loaded into the car in one piece and lifted out nicely. It might just be the perfect compromise. 

Do you happen to know if either my EQ5 or EQ6 heads for my tripod will fit the AZ GTi, or would I need an adapter? I never know what thread diameters are used. 

Yes, sounds like an ideal combination.

The AZGTi uses a standard 3/8th photo thread so you would need an adaptor which I believe FLO now do

[25585]

5 minutes ago, Stu said:

Yes, sounds like an ideal combination.

The AZGTi uses a standard 3/8th photo thread so you would need an adaptor which I believe FLO now do

It's the Berlebach adaptor. 

I noticed telescopeplanet.co.uk still have a 100mm SW ED Pro Equinox for sale. OTA only cheaper than the Vixen 103. 

[osbourne one-nil]

Thanks, yeah, it's quite a bit cheaper, but it's an f9 and I worry about the extra physical length maybe being a step too far?

[John]

Vixen glass is lovely - they really know how to make a good objective lens

That said, Vixen scopes have used Synta tubes and objectives in the past, but not the ED103S.

 

[GavStar]

1 hour ago, osbourne one-nil said:

As much as I loved my old FC100D, I'm not going to fork out on one of those again any time soon. 

Is it just cost or are there any other reasons you don’t want to get the fc100d?

[osbourne one-nil]

Just cost - the scope itself was, as far as I could tell, perfect. But for a lot less, I think the Vixen might be as close to being as perfect as my viewing conditions ever allow?

[25585]

18 minutes ago, John said:

Vixen glass is lovely - they really know how to make a good objective lens

That said, Vixen scopes have used Synta tubes and objectives in the past, but not the ED103S.

 

Vixen v Tak comparison would be interesting in the 100mm doublet class. 

[John]

I thought the Vixen ED102S were around £2K ?

How much are the FC100D's now ?

[osbourne one-nil]

The Vixen ED103S is about £1650 while the equivalently kitted-out FC100D is about £2200. 

The Skywatcher, with lots of extra kit and a case, is just over £700!

[John]

Can't knock the value from the Skywatcher then !

Especially with reviews like this out there:

http://scopeviews.co.uk/SW100EDPro.htm

 

[F15Rules]

I've got a Vixen ED103s (my second) and I've also owned several ED100 F9s (Skywatcher, Celestron).

If you intend to keep the scope for a few years, I'd wholeheartedly go for the Vixen. If you think you will only keep it for a year or two, go for the Skywatcher, you will lose less in depreciation. The ED103s are all Japan built.

Optically, the Vixen is superb, and noticeably superior to the ED100, good though that scope is. The Vixen mechanics are much better than the SW too (as they should be for the extra cost). The Vixen is one of those  scopes ( I think, rather like Takashash) which look better in the flesh than in photos for some reason. And they are really lightweight, so very portable.

The ED103s has now been discontinued and replaced by the SD103s, although you may well still find one in stock - and maybe use the ending of the line as a bargaining chip for a discount off new price? As far as I can tell, the optics set is unchanged, the changes are more to do with the baffling and mechanics to make the scope even more AP friendly. For visual, as I and many other Tak/Vixen/SW 4" frac users are primarily, there is no difference.

The ED/SD103s also comes as standard with a really nice dual speed rack and pinion focuser. The one I have at the moment is 10 years old and is single speed, but is optically identical to the latest ED103s..I could upgrade the focuser to dual speed, but the single speed one is very good, and I use a Baader T2 prism diagonal fitted with a helical fine focusing 1.25" eyepiece holder, which gives me 5mm total focus travel for high power viewing (and can be locked in position too). The prism diagonal set costs about a third less than the fine focuser upgrade you can buy from Opticron, Vixen's UK distributor.

I also have a Tak FS128, and, apart from the aperture difference, the ED103s really holds up well in contrast and image quality - although I haven't had many chances so far to test them side by side (and they are similar focal length, the FS128 is F8.1, the Vixen F7.7).

I really think that Vixen optics are underrated - their eyepieces are more well known, so for example the SLV eyepieces are reviewed favourably versus the Pentax XWs, apart from the smaller field of view. The scopes tend to be a bit in limbo with pricing well above the SW chinese versions but a good bit below the Taks. In my opinion the Vixen ED doublets are closer to Tak quality than to the SW end.

I used my first ED103s with a Vixen Porta II mount. Just slo motion drives, no electrics, and a superbly portable set up. I've attached some pictures of the set up below.

My current one sits either on a Celestron CG4 with pillar extension, or on my Tak EM2 mount, and for this I bought a Tak Clamshell which fits the Vixen perfectly (it has the same tube diameter as the Tak FL102s).

Good luck with your decision, I hope you listen to the call of the Vixen! 

Dave

[osbourne one-nil]

Dave - thanks for that. I've said it before, but this time I mean it. I know a 100mm frac is the sweet spot for me, so it'll be a keeper. I do wonder about 5" fracs, but they all need more mounting and become heavier to the point that I'd just get an 8" newt. 

If it was purely a financial decision, I'd go for the Skywatcher every time, but no, I like Vixen stuff and it ticks all the boxes for me in terms of dimensions. 

I've already got a Porta II so it might well be that I end up putting the 80ED on the GTi and the Vixen on the Porta II, but we shall see. 

Just out of interest, what's your most used eyepiece with it? I did sell my 31mm Nagler lasst year in a tax-bill and 4th child revenue raising sale, but I have never really liked 2" wide angle eyepieces that much, so for now will be using my 24mm Panoptic and 9mm Nagler which should keep me busy. 

[F15Rules]

14 minutes ago, osbourne one-nil said:

what's your most used eyepiece with it?

With both my FS128 and  ED103s my three favourite eyepieces are the same: Vixen LVW 22mm 65 deg (now sadly discontinued), Pentax 10.5mm XL (now replaced by the 10mm XW) and Pentax SMC 8-24mm zoom, for it's overall versatility.

Your Pan 24 will give you x33 in the ED103s (my LVW gives x36), which is a lovely low power view. I do also have a recently bought TS ED Paragon 40mm which will give  x20, but I haven't had chance to use that yet. Your 9mm Nagler will give you x88, a nice medium power, and if you barlow that x2 you'd get x 175, a very nice high power for planets, moon, doubles etc on a good night 

Just a small weight saving tip on the Porta II. I'm not sure if the ED103s comes with a finder as standard now (mine did, it was good but I replaced it with a RACI version), but a smaller 8x30 RACI is quite cheap, very effective for most star hopping and significantly lighter in weight than the 50mm. I also tend to use 1.25" eyepieces with the Vixen, rarely 2" ones, again it saves weight to some extent as I can use the 1.25" T2 prism rather than a 2" diagonal.

A 5" frac is quite a different beast to a 4"...easy enough to lift a short distance if you're fit, but not portable in the same way as a 4". The attached picture will give you some idea of the difference, both scopes being similar focal ratio (F8.1 vs F7.7). I haven't weighed the individual setups, but I reckon the FS128 and EM2 mount/tripod weighs almost twice what the Vixen setup does.

HTH,

Dave

[osbourne one-nil]

Wow, yeah, they're beasts! My Vixen NA140SS was big...lightweight, but big (sort of the opposite of me). 

I've added a Vixen RDF to my basket. I do have a very old Meade Series 4000 6.7mm ultra wide which I might try out first but failing that, I'll get a barlow at some point. 

Your house is made of nice bricks by the way...very mellow!