How to improve viewing?

[Girders]

Hi all, I'm hoping for a diagnosis as to why I'm seeing Jupiter the way I'm seeing it.    I'm still a total newbie having got my first telescope at the start of December and managing half a dozen sessions since then.  My scope is a Skywatcher Heritage 114P Virtuoso (114/500 F4.38).

When viewing Jupiter this morning (in Glasgow 6:30 - 7:30) and on a previous occasion it's been very bright and I've only had very fleeting hints of bands.  I've attached a still and a link to a short video clip.  I've got no plans for astrophotography but having a smartphone attached at times is helpful for my 4 year old daughter and the video clip is a fair representation of what I was seeing through the eyepiece.  

This was viewing through a 6mm plossl and 2x Barlow (167x) but the image was similar but smaller using the 6mm alone.  The scope was given about 45mins calling time (outside temp was -2)

I know there are a number of factors in play here, but the ones that came to mind are:

• Should I be using a filter to lessen the brightness of Jupiter?
• Is my fine-tuning of the focuser not quite good enough yet?
• How much of the problem is the fact my table is on a decking that has a bit of shake.
• Will setting up the Virtuoso's motorised tracking ability improve the image?
• The "seeing" wasn't good enough?
• I've reached the limit of the scope?
• I could try a higher eyepiece and take it up towards the max 228x (although even at 167x the exit pupil is down to 0.7mm)
• Something else entirely I've not thought of.

Any suggestions that will help me improve my viewing much appreciated.

Thanks

 

David

Video - Jupiter 27 Dec

 

 

[Victor Boesen]

First off all, it looks like it's slightly out of focus. Secondly I wouldn't use so high magnifications. Under normal condition, I use 136x with my ten inch dob. Only if the seeing is exceptional I can use around and over 200x. The third thing is that Jupiter is very far away right now, so at opposition Jupiter is going to appear a lot larger, and the high magnification won't be needed.

clear skies.

[Pig]

David, seeing will be the largest factor, but you also have a very fast scope so you are probably over doing it with the magnification or maybe the eyepiece cannot handle it..... 

[Girders]

Thanks for that.  I tend to forget that the position of the planets has such an impact.  And the whole "seeing" things is a mystery to me.  Eyepiece wise I've got 25mm, 10mm, 6mm and a 2x Barlow giving magnification options of 20x, 40x, 50x, 83x, 100x and 167x. And although I wondered about the mag being too high as I was still getting a solid bright white disc at 83x (the 6mm) I'd thought that the magnification wasn't the major element.

[ronin]

Leave the 2x barlow out of the viewing, that should reduce it to around 80x if your figures are right. Personally I would prefer to see you using an 8mm or 10mm. You will get a better result. A big blurry image is no good and one of my best views of Jupiter was at aroud 30x to 40x but the result was really sharp., maybe small but clear and sharp.

Jupiter is low so that will not help.

Shakey table you can do little about, other then better table, better decking or a better scope. So lets just forget that bit altogether.

Forget the claims of "Maximum magnification" that will be advertised. The scope is a 114 but a fast 114. I would be pleasantly surprised if it got anywhere near 120x, would half (only half) expect 100x, and it will be more comfortable at 80x. Being fast, f/4.3, you will need a fairly good eyepiece. Agaiun I still think a single 8mm will do well and if you wanted higher magnification then a 6mm. Not sure what the supplied eyepiece is in terms of design.

[John]

I agree with what has been said. I'd back off the magnification to 100x and wait for better viewing conditions, ie: Jupiter higher in the sky.

Also, I don't know how long you observed Jupiter for but it takes time for the eye to adjust to the contrast and then gradually more details start to emerge. I find that I start to see more after 30 minutes or so at the eyepiece observing Jupiter.

[Girders]

I'll keep my fingers crossed for another clear night tonight and try and drag myself out of bed even earlier for a longer go at it.  I'll try taking the magnification down further, but as mentioned, at 83x it was still just a bright disc.  I wasn't sure how well the scope would cope at high magnification, but if it makes any difference it's perfectly happy with 167x for lunar viewing - producing very crisp clear views of craters and features (much crisper than the attached image I took with it).

 

[John]

Jupiter is unlike the Moon, Saturn and Mars in that it does not seem to respond to very high magnifications well. I think it's because the surface features on Jupiter are defined by subtle contrast changes rather than by much starker changes in illumination such as define lunar features.

So high powers seem to "drown out" Jupiters features rather than enhancing them.

 

 

[noah4x4]

The question was "How to improve viewing".

I spent two years on this quest via conventional visual astronomy. I spent £1,000's on eyepieces and filters. But unless I spent another fortune travelling to dark sites then light pollution in the South East UK typically always beat me. Even the clear dark skies of Tenerife looking at much clearer 'faint fuzzies' didn't satisfy me. I nearly caught 'aperture fever' which would have led to yet another spending spree, but fortunately I instead discovered Electronically Assisted Astronomy.

The view through an eyepiece will never match the views possible  through a camera. You see much more detail when using 'live view' and EAA, plus it can be done in the warm. There will inevitably be many members that prefer visual astronomy (fair enough, I am not suggesting they change). All I am recommending is if the quality of what you are seeing continues to be disappointing do recognise the limitations of the human eye and try the 'live' view through a cheap ZWO or Atik camera before buying yet another £400 eyepiece. Yes, you can improve things by conventional kit, but any DSO will always remain a faint fuzzy unless you have massive aperture.  I prefer to enjoy the view in fuller glory. EAA is perhaps not for the purist, but a reasonable alternative direction and it has rekindled my enthusiasm.

[Charic]

On a recent trip to Glasgow, more specific, the Science centre, they replicated in their Planetarium, the light pollution/sky glow over Glasgow with reference to darker skies, it was pretty dire, so  you might  need to get out of Glasgow to see the difference? I know it's easier said than done, but if that's what it takes to get better views, then its something to consider, and if your scope is setup to its best, it will definitely show an improvement at the darker site.

[Girders]

Thanks Noah and charic.

Camera assisted is something we are partly doing already. Getting a 4 year old happy with a view through an eyepiece isn't easy and hooking up a smartphone adapter has been a real help on that front.

We're on the outskirts of Glasgow so LP isn't too dreadful but we do plan to get out a bit more once were more practiced with the scope.

Hoping for some clear skies again tonight and will give it a go at lower magnification. I think I'd somehow got it in my head that if the magnification was too high and the scope wasn't coping it would appear dull and blurry rather than overly bright and crisp. Not sure where I got that idea from.

[John]

19 minutes ago, Girders said:

... I think I'd somehow got it in my head that if the magnification was too high and the scope wasn't coping it would appear dull and blurry rather than overly bright and crisp. Not sure where I got that idea from.

Different targets respond in different ways. Too much magnification on a deep sky object and you do often get a "dull and blurry" result.

With your scope at 100x you should see the two main cloudbelts on Jupiter reasonably clearly. When conditions are good and your eye is practiced you may see some other more subtle cloud belts as well and maybe the Great Red Spot if it is on the right side of the planet when you are observing. The views won't resemble the images you see though. Probably more like this:

 

[Girders]

Thanks again John. I don't have unrealistic expectations - your image is at the top end of what I'm hoping/expecting to be able to see. And if I have to wait a bit for the planets to be in the right place and learn a lot more I'm fine with that.

Still looking good-ish for tonight so will post an update tomorrow hopefully.

[MarsG76]

As mentioned above, the seeing is the single most critical part of viewing Jupiter detail.... The rare moments where the atmosphere is so steady and Jupiter is high in the sky is when I saw detail with in clouds, cracks, bubbles, lines and shading in the GRS, as well as the moons look like tiny discs all magnified at 400X and higher.

Sure that focus could be a factor, but when you're focusing, I'm sure you can judge when you're in and out of focus, especially when you travel through the focus. 

Sometimes a ND filter helps, so does a contrast booster and neodymium filter, but ultimately it is down to the atmosphere... its rare but worth the wait and hunt for that WOW moment.

[Girders]

Further report as promised...

Got out again this morning around 6 and managed about 45 mins observing after letting it cool for 45 mins.  Took the magnification down to 50x using the 10mm with exactly the same results - Jupiter as a solid bright white disc with a moon or two also visible (and with the 6mm later - 83x).

Not helped by the fact it was freezing cold and I was struggling to adjust the focus with my hands. I think before I give it another go I really need to get to grips with the motorised tracking on the mount to avoid the frustrations of regularly losing the target from view ( and having difficulty re-locating it).  I think I may also have to wait until the planets are viewable in the evening as the whole silly-o-clock thing isn't working for me.

On the plus side I did get some lovely views of a very small but definitely pink Mars.

[Pig]

That is most strange David..... have you tried focussing on a terrestrial object during daylight hours ? If only to rule out any problems with the focusser. My fist scope was very similar in dynamics to yours and I too could not get Jupiter to focus and the results look very similar to the image you posted . It turned out to be be a poorly collimated scope ? mind you if you can see Jupiter’s moons as described I doubt if you have the same issue I had. Probably a combination of poor seeing and eyepieces that are not suitable for a fast focal ratio scope like yours.

[Girders]

Thanks Pig.  I did consider collimation being a problem but ruled it out as it's absolutely perfect for daylight terrestrial and lunar observing (any blurred edges are due to the photography)

 

[Pig]

Yes the craters in the image are fine.... it’s almost definitely a combination of seeing and fast focal ratio.

[happy-kat]

How are you getting on with the great Virtuoso mount? Have you got tracking working now?

[Girders]

Hi happy-kat, and thanks for asking. I got the motorised mount up and running and the tracking set up.  Having the motorised control makes things much easier - once I've found a target I won't lose it.  The tracking is good - although there's still an inevitable (but much smaller) drift for the planets (although my accuracy for north at 5:30 am in the dark may not have been perfect!).

Weather sadly has curtailed any sessions since the Jupiter/Mars conjunction. For the couple of sessions I managed around then Jupiter was still a bright solid disk.  I know the seeing conditions were poor at the time - although I did detect the merest hint of a couple of less bright bands for a fleeting second.  But I was happy to see Jupiter and 4 moons in the same view as Mars.  I'd got a variable moon filter and although good for the moon, it didn't reveal anything more on Jupiter. And from seeing other posts in the forum I know my experience wasn't much different from most others.  Photo below...

Essentially I'm happy that the scope is working as designed and I'm resigned to the fact that I may be in for a considerable wait until seeing conditions are better, the clouds disappear and Jupiter is higher in the sky (and preferably in the evening).

But before then, I'm counting the days/weeks until I'll get my first proper chance to have a look at Saturn. 

[happy-kat]

That's a great report. I love the flexibility of freedom find and I also bought a synscan v3 handset for mine from Astroboot which gives full goto. I've a Bluetooth dongle as well but if I was buying today I might be tempted by the new skywatcher wifi dongle which goes with their android app I think it might be compatible (I've not confirmed it though).

I'll add a comet chase I did using this mount.

Comet 41p with m97 owl nebula and the m108 surfboard. Bit of fun with a dslr and 135mm lens.

[Girders]

That's a great image.

The SW wifi adapter is on my "list" but I think to make it worthwhile we'd need to be heading out to some dark sky sites and before then I need to get a lot more familiar with what I'm doing in the dark - and sort out a portable table to sit it on.  Going to keep taking any chance I can to get out in the back garden and then start thinking about getting out and about once Jupiter/Mars/Saturn are up in the evening again.  DSOs aren't really an option with our light pollution from the garden but happy to practice on the moon for now - and occasional early rises for planets.

[happy-kat]

I have light pollution as well, though perhaps not as bad as I imagine Glasgow could be.

I have an Ikea wooden slat unit that it sits on, it has a pull out shelf and a middle shelf it is my garden unit from the Lean2 lol, but it works fine for this unit, it was cut down to be about 400mm wide and sits approx 1000mm high. Equally I could use it on an empty fat ball plastic container or chair or park bench.

M45 Pleiades would  be bright enough to see and it is a visual eye object for me and there is Orion now M42 worth a go for you as well so that is two objects up now in the evening for trying with your 114p.

[Girders]

6 hours ago, happy-kat said:

M45 Pleiades would  be bright enough to see and it is a visual eye object for me and there is Orion now M42 worth a go for you as well so that is two objects up now in the evening for trying with your 114p.

Cheers. Managed Pleiades a few nights, but it was disappointing under the light pollution having had a brilliant view of it under a dark sky with binoculars not so long ago. Also spotted the Orion Nebula on one of our first sessions with the scope, but when I've tried to spot it again the conditions haven't been good enough.  And looks like I'm in for a week of heavy cloud cover.  Stellaruim it is then...

[happy-kat]

Have you tried a towel over your head to help your night vision and then wait 20 minutes plus under the hood at the eyepiece to see what more of M45 you could make out.