New Apo on the block

[mikeDnight]

Attached are some pics of a new 125mm ED doublet being sold by different vendors that make great claims.

Apparently, there is a review in AN ( which I haven't read ), but in which Ade Ashford to make the remarkable claim that this new ED is better than the Tak FS128.  Ade makes the comparison of this scope with the Tak from memory which sounds alarm bells to me, and undermines the accuracy of the comparison. He claims the Tak FS128 gives a warm image, which also leads to a big ? mark over the review, as the Tak FS128 is as ice cold as ice cold gets. Any warmth would be due the the eyepiece type used. Naglers for example give a warmer cast than the XW's, and also introduce more lateral colour. It would be good to get some hands on experience views of this new 125mm F7.8 ED from experienced observers if anyone has managed to get their hands on one yet. The attached images seem to show that this is the same scope being offered but that the AA version has a different focuser.

 

[Stu]

It's a very interesting looking scope. The TS variant looks excellent value; I'm intrigued to know if there are optical differences (even if just better QA) to the Altair or if the price difference is purely the focuser? For visual the TS makes more sense with the smaller focuser.

[John]

I've been following the build up on these for some time. Interesting scope. Aimed at the visual astronomer more than the imagers I reckon.

A slightly smaller version of APM's 140mm F/7 FPL-53 doublet or a bigger brother of the Skywatcher Equinox 120 F/7.5 (different manufacturers, I know) ?

I tend to agree that it's not ideal comparing things from memory but Ade Ashford does have a lot more experience than I do in reviewing equipment.

 

[Moonshane]

I've often wondered if I should combine my SW 120mm ED and my Astrotech 102mm  ED plus possibly my 150mm f11 newt to get a single higher quality scope but cannot really afford a 128mm Tak and there seem to be few options about the £1500 mark without needing a bigger mount than my eq5. Maybe this could be a contender.

[25585]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

It's a very interesting looking scope. The TS variant looks excellent value; I'm intrigued to know if there are optical differences (even if just better QA) to the Altair or if the price difference is purely the focuser? For visual the TS makes more sense with the smaller focuser.

 

2 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

Attached are some pics of a new 125mm ED doublet being sold by different vendors that make great claims.

Apparently, there is a review in AN ( which I haven't read ), but in which Ade Ashford to make the remarkable claim that this new ED is better than the Tak FS128.  Ade makes the comparison of this scope with the Tak from memory which sounds alarm bells to me, and undermines the accuracy of the comparison. He claims the Tak FS128 gives a warm image, which also leads to a big ? mark over the review, as the Tak FS128 is as ice cold as ice cold gets. Any warmth would be due the the eyepiece type used. Naglers for example give a warmer cast than the XW's, and also introduce more lateral colour. It would be good to get some hands on experience views of this new 125mm F7.8 ED from experienced observers if anyone has managed to get their hands on one yet. The attached images seem to show that this is the same scope being offered but that the AA version has a different focuser.

 

Another 200 GBP more than SW 120 ED Equinox, & about 500 GBP less than a SW Esprit 120. 5mm more diameter than both. Fits in neatly.

[Moonshane]

Any indication the aperture is clipped?

[Ben the Ignorant]

3 hours ago, Moonshane said:

Any indication the aperture is clipped?

It is never clipped unless a baffle is put at the wrong place, but never on purpose.

[Highburymark]

Think the Altair scope reviewed in AN had a price of £2000 - don't have copy with me to check

[Stu]

12 minutes ago, Highburymark said:

Think the Altair scope reviewed in AN had a price of £2000 - don't have copy with me to check

Yes, they are on AA's website at £2k, makes the €1499 TS look attractive even though I prefer the Altair design. Question is, are the optics the same?

[Timebandit]

15 hours ago, Moonshane said:

I've often wondered if I should combine my SW 120mm ED and my Astrotech 102mm  ED plus possibly my 150mm f11 newt to get a single higher quality scope but cannot really afford a 128mm Tak and there seem to be few options about the £1500 mark without needing a bigger mount than my eq5. Maybe this could be a contender.

 

14 hours ago, 25585 said:

 

Another 200 GBP more than SW 120 ED Equinox, & about 500 GBP less than a SW Esprit 120. 5mm more diameter than both. Fits in neatly.

 

 

As an owner of a 120ed to which I find a great scope for transportation and love it's crisp and sharpness of view's especially on double stars and planets.

Would a 5mm aperture increase really be a worthwhile investment? Are the optics really that good that you would see that much difference? I would of thought that anyone with a great 120ed would really need to go up to at least 130mm to make it a worthwhile proposition 

[Moonshane]

Good points of course, but I am thinking about when I go on holiday in the caravan and wider fields too. It's a smaller package due to the sliding shield and longer extension to focus. Plus it will be more BV friendly allowing me to use lower magnification. Currently I can use the 2.6x GPC for binos in my 120ED for white light solar and giving minimum magnification of 94x (true field of 0.53 degrees) with my 25mm plossls. With this scope I'd get down to 39x (1.28 degree true field) potentially which would be better in terms of poor seeing and for wider field dark sky gazing (half a degree more than the 120ED with the BVs and 1/7X GPC. Plus it might also be feasible to use it for HA with just a 35nm 2" filter well in front of the PST stage 2 mod I have as with the drawtube all the way in it's not that far from the -200mm critical position as I understand it.

Furthermore, cashing in four scopes to buy one that pretty much does what all three do will go down well at home. I am of course assuming it's as good as a 120ED which would be good enough for me.

[Highburymark]

Although the AN review compares the Altair with the FS128, seems like the TS version is targeting potential SW120 buyers. Anything above 125mm would take it into different territory size-wise - whereas this package looks reasonably compact. As Stu says, if the (TS) optics are the same as the Altair then at this price it sounds like a great deal. 

[mikeDnight]

2 hours ago, Timebandit said:

 

 

 

As an owner of a 120ed to which I find a great scope for transportation and love it's crisp and sharpness of view's especially on double stars and planets.

Would a 5mm aperture increase really be a worthwhile investment? Are the optics really that good that you would see that much difference? I would of thought that anyone with a great 120ed would really need to go up to at least 130mm to make it a worthwhile proposition 

It is hard to imagine the 5mm aperture increase offering any significant advantage in light grasp or resolution, and to best the SW 120ED in performance will be a big ask at such low prices. I would imagine the 125 to perform at a similar level to the 120 but still a worthwhile scope to own. At similar apertures, it is the optical figure that makes the most obvious difference in performance, and high levels of figure cost time and money. All will be revealed when these new scopes are pushed to their limit on planetary. I found the 120ED to reach its comfort zone at around X70 per inch where most scopes level out at X50. By comparison a Canon Optron lens will sail along at X100 to X120 per inch, but the cost would be double that of the 125mm ED doublet. It's exciting, and time will tell just how the 125 really performs alongside a FS128 at high power on a steady night. 

[Moonshane]

LOL and that's the sort of comment that takes me right back again to keeping what I have 

 

[John]

3 hours ago, Timebandit said:

 

 

 

As an owner of a 120ed to which I find a great scope for transportation and love it's crisp and sharpness of view's especially on double stars and planets.

Would a 5mm aperture increase really be a worthwhile investment? Are the optics really that good that you would see that much difference? I would of thought that anyone with a great 120ed would really need to go up to at least 130mm to make it a worthwhile proposition 

I'm not sure that it would be, personally. I've compared my ED120 directly with my Tak FC-100DL and my TMB/LZOS 130 F/9.2 triplet, which are both about as good as it gets in those apertures IMHO, and now more fully realise what an excellent objective lens these Synta ED doublets have

Interesting remark from Mike re: Canon  Optron objectives. I've read whispers that Canon Optron were in some way involved in the development of the ED120 objective lens. The glass used is Japanese and they are rumoured to have aspherical figuring which is finished by hand.

 

[Moonshane]

cheers John

I think you have just saved me some money and heartache 

[Timebandit]

12 minutes ago, Moonshane said:

cheers John

I think you have just saved me some money and heartache 

 

Yes totally agree. Mike and John have been there and done it with some great scopes. So makes me feel so much better with my humble but great 120ed??

[Highburymark]

19 minutes ago, Timebandit said:

 

Yes totally agree. Mike and John have been there and done it with some great scopes. So makes me feel so much better with my humble but great 120ed??

Would not call an Equinox 120 humble Timebandit! It's a superb scope. I was surprised they stopped making it - guess the vast majority of buyers wanted the cheaper 120ED. Shame - the black 120 still looks the business too. Now my little Equinox 80 - that's humble - but another great performer. 

[25585]

6 minutes ago, Highburymark said:

Would not call an Equinox 120 humble Timebandit! It's a superb scope. I was surprised they stopped making it - guess the vast majority of buyers wanted the cheaper 120ED. Shame - the black 120 still looks the business too. Now my little Equinox 80 - that's humble - but another great performer. 

120 ED Equinox is still made. It's the cheaper white 120 ED that is not available. 

[Moonshane]

There was a white 120ed?

I much prefer white scopes

[Highburymark]

50 minutes ago, 25585 said:

120 ED Equinox is still made. It's the cheaper white 120 ED that is not available. 

Hmmm -  looking at a couple of websites you're right. I was told by a German dealer a year ago that SW wasn't making the 66 and 120 Equinox any more. But then scopes like the Lunt 35 are still available new, though production supposedly stopped a while ago. Keep hearing Pentax XWs are not long for this world too...... [can hear the off topic mods sharpening pencils so will leave it there]

[25585]

1 hour ago, Moonshane said:

There was a white 120ed?

I much prefer white scopes

@FLO had one not long ago, but only the Equinox is there now. Try other sites. Triplet Expire is white but 700 more expensive. 

[paulastro]

On ‎20‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 20:03, mikeDnight said:

Attached are some pics of a new 125mm ED doublet being sold by different vendors that make great claims.

Apparently, there is a review in AN ( which I haven't read ), but in which Ade Ashford to make the remarkable claim that this new ED is better than the Tak FS128.  Ade makes the comparison of this scope with the Tak from memory which sounds alarm bells to me, and undermines the accuracy of the comparison. He claims the Tak FS128 gives a warm image, which also leads to a big ? mark over the review, as the Tak FS128 is as ice cold as ice cold gets. Any warmth would be due the the eyepiece type used. Naglers for example give a warmer cast than the XW's, and also introduce more lateral colour. It would be good to get some hands on experience views of this new 125mm F7.8 ED from experienced observers if anyone has managed to get their hands on one yet. The attached images seem to show that this is the same scope being offered but that the AA version has a different focuser.

 

Thanks for starting this thread Mike, it's always nice to hear about the latest developments in refractors, especially ED/fluorite doublets which have always been my favoured scopes for planetary and Lunar observations.  Takahashi fluorite doublets are exceptional telescopes and the SW EDs have always been an excellent buy if a true fluorite is out of the question price wise - and by no means a poor relation in performance terms.  I well remember the original 'champagne' coloured SW 120ED that I had for a while, it was really a game changer in 5 inch apo class refractors when it came out.

To be strictly accurate, Ade Ashford's comparison was made by consulting his observing notes from when he used an FS128 - which I think is rather different from relying on memory alone.  Also, as a long-term scope reviewer, I would imagine Ade's notes are probably rather more detailed than the ones I make myself whenever I try out  a telescope I haven't used before - though I do my best .  Also, I would certainly consider Ade  an 'experienced observer'. 

Ade does lament the lack of opportunity to try the scope out on any planets, which like Mike, I would consider to be the ultimate test, along with the drop out point in magnification in good seeing conditions.  This couldn't be helped of course at the time he had the scope available.   However, like Mike, I do agree I was very surprised at Ade's view that the FS128 had a worm cast due to unfocused blue light.  I also consider that all of the Tak doublets I have ever used are the most 'ice cold' of any optic I have ever used, that and the fact that I consider Tak doublets to be the sharpest I have ever used as well makes me love them so much and consider them the best for Lunar and planetary observation.  Many other top refractors give much warmer images, to the extent that some look almost 'nicotine' stained in comparison.  As already indicated I consider SW ED doublets with he FPL53 element to be the next best thing, and most similar in having that 'flourity' cool appearance.

Anyway, I have the answer!  There are one or two FS128 owners at least that currently contribute to SGL.  Might I suggest one of them buys one of these new scopes and does a side by side comparison, in good seeing conditions, when Mars and Jupiter are available next year. Comparing planetary detail and which one gives the highest power before giving up the ghost. 

I'm hoping that these scope are easily available by next September.  No, I'm not buying one, I'm more than happy with my Equinox 120.  However on September 6th next year on the day I arrive at Kelling for the Autumn bash, Mars will still be over 20" in diameter and at mag -2.0  !!  I'll be hoping some kind trader will take along one of these 125mm 'wonder scopes' so I can try it out on Mars myself!

[Moonshane]

I think that's the answer for me Paul too. Just do nothing until reviews start and go from there. Gives me time to save too.

[ollypenrice]

On 21/11/2017 at 11:46, Ben the Ignorant said:

It is never clipped unless a baffle is put at the wrong place, but never on purpose.

On occasion, in the past, manufacturers have aperture-clipped their scopes with the unscrupulous intention of claiming the full aperture while eliminating some of the defects of the lens at full aperture.

Olly