Today's newbie looking for scope advice

[popeye85]

13 minutes ago, Girders said:

And thanks for the offer of a meet up. Once we get up and running having muddled through couple of nights (which is half the fun) I'll be hoping to get out with a group somewhere to really learn the ropes.

Have a look aT the 'East Lothian astronomy' Facebook group and the 'central scotland observers group's online, that is the local observing group, really friendly and that's where the locals organise observing sessions and I know you would be more than welcome.

[Girders]

After having nothing turn up in the Black Friday sales, it's decision time.  When I last posted I was a little reluctantly heading towards the Heritage 130P, but despite reassurances on here, the flex tube still didn't appeal aesthetically.  Fortunately/unfortunately my better half took one look at it and agreed.  Anyway, after a bit more research I discovered that I could also get a 150mm aperture dobsonian in a 'short' tube.  The standard Skyliner 200p just isn't an option due to transportation (along with wife and kid in a midsize car).  So I'm now about to pull the trigger on a Bresser Messier 150/750 dobson:

https://www.bresseruk.com/astronomy/bresser-messier-6-dobsonian-telescope.html

Two last questions in a "If anyone here knows any reason why this man and this scope may not..." style...

1. Reviews of this specific scope are limited but seemed mostly pretty positive for the general Bresser range of Dobsons.  Does anyone have any experience of these scopes (and the short format in particular).  I know there is a downside to it being an F5 and may require better eyepieces but the portability wins out.

2. The 6" is £254 but the 5" is £169.  Am I right in going with the 6" or would I be better buying the 5" and better eyepieces?

Thanks

David

[Charic]

For the second question, the eyepiece will magnify the image that the telescope provides, it won't necessarily make the image any better! When I think of better eyepieces, for me, their the ones that have ample eye relief and a decent amount of field of view, not necessarily very expensive eyepieces like TeleVue, as I have tried some of them. The supplied Kellner eyepieces would probably be your first upgrade anyway!

Whichever eyepiece you choose would work equally well on either scope, but the larger scope will have some benefit, as its possible that  fainter targets could be observed, but only under specific conditions of seeing and dark skies.

The description of rack & pinion focuser is something I would not desire on the scope, seems antiquated, rough, possibly not as smooth as my Crayford? If I were recommending a 6" scope it would be the Skywatcher, but then the length of the scope is still going to be your issue again.
I know there's no shops in Glasgow that specialise  in astronomy, but there should be a club somewhere, just to take a look through a scope (weather permitting).
I'm visiting Glasgow next week, but sadly wont have the Skyliner with me, otherwise you could have had a peek (weather permitting).

There's no rush either, take your time, the Stars will still be there when your ready.
 

[Girders]

Thanks Charic.  I'm planning on doing an intro post on CSOG tomorrow if I get the chance and see if there are any meetings planned (although I don't have a lot in the way of free evenings at the moment).

I know the Crayford is a better option but all the scopes I'm considering seem to be R&P style.  I'd love to go for the 200P, but there's just no way a scope with a 1.2m length can work for us (at least until we replace our current car).

As for the stars will wait, very true and good advice.  But in my case what may appear to be unnecessary haste is a recognition on my part that my nature is very much to take my time and research something to death - with a likelihood that by the time I eventually make a decision my interest will have tapered off a little.  So this is definitely something I want to "strike while the iron is hot" on and build some momentum rather than lose it.  And I'd really hate to miss some decent clear skies and then find it cloudy for the next three months!

[Charic]

Read the small print, the very small print, ,...,,..,,,. No matter what you buy, there is always the likelihood of a scattering of cloud to contend with, but when you have the right equipment, the right conditions and your target is in focus without shimmer, you wont forget that moment in time. Ive done it with Jupiter on this scope, but would like to see  a little more of Jupiter with essentially more aperture!

Also take a guide that whatever Newtonian scope you buy, its aperture is also a useful guide as to the limits of magnification, so for a 150mm its a limit of 300x, but you'd need to be on the highest mountain, the clearest of nights, and possibly within a vacuum to get the best images with  sharp detail. Although in theory its twice the aperture for maximum power, under UK skies, this really is not achievable, but sticking with 150x on  the Bresser is a more realistic and achievable power for the scope, possibly using something like a 5mm eyepiece? Its just a guide as you can go beyond the limits but image deterioration accompanies the extremes of magnification be that  for high or low.

[Girders]

After a final run through of the options with Mrs G, we had a sight change of plan.  We took things back to the basic question of what the intention is - and that's to spark the imagination of our daughter. Good views of planets would be amazing, but the reality is that due to weather and planetary positions most of our observing will be the moon.  We also came back to the fact that with three of us now interested - including a 4 year old - sessions would be slow, but couldn't be too long. And while we didn't see the need for go-to, some element of tracking was desireable.

So while a 6" (150mm) dobson would still have been my instrument of choice, we instead went for a SW Heritage 114p Virtuoso (4.5") tabletop dobson with motorised tracking which requires only very basic alignment and can be used manually. We got it from Green Witch with their 25% discount making it effectively half the price of the 6" short tube dobsons once basic accessories were included.

It arrived today and we managed to get out for some first impressions looking at the Moon once the wee one was in bed, and we're delighted with it.  It's got the advantage that it's small enough (and shiny and red) that it will stay out on display - and ready for quick dashes out the door on good nights.

I'll do a proper post about how we get on with our first "proper" session if we get some clear skies over the next week or two 

Thanks again for all everyone's help. While still the most complicated buying decision I've ever made, it helped me to focus on the bits that really mattered to how we will use it.

Thanks, David

[Charic]

4 hours ago, Girders said:

ready for quick dashes out the door on good nights.

The scope will always benefit a little cooling, in order to reach ambient local temperature. If you take a warm scope out into the cold of an early evening , the heat, ( warm air from the mirror ) will  initially destroy the image, until it cools!
 

[JOC]

Well at least you got a telescope - many don't get that far - I hope you have fun with it when it arrives.

[domstar]

It sounds like you made a good choice. You can always go bigger in the future. You're right that the session will be short with a child (and even me at the beginning). Have fun with your new hobby.

[Astro Imp]

Great that you've made a choice and I'm sure you will all have loads of fun.

I look forward hearing how you all get on.

Good luck.

[Geoff Lister]

A good choice. I have the 90P version of the Virtuoso, with the 90mm Mak optical tube, smaller mirror but higher magnification. It is certainly very easy to set up, and the quiet "beep beep" every 5 seconds is very reassuring. The mount is very frugal on battery current when tracking, but a bit thirsty when slewing at high speed (5) with the buttons. If running on batteries, it is worth releasing the clutches, manually slewing to near the target, engaging the clutches, and using speeds 1 to 3 for final alignment.

Once you have the base level, you can use a compass to find North, but I would suggest that a larger compass, than the one supplied, will give better precision. I tend to just point the 'scope towards Polaris and then cycle the power; this should be more accurate than using a compass. I used Tippex on the altitude arrow markers, so that they show up better in the dark. 

The mount will, with care, take the OTAs from my 130p and Skymax 127, provided that I do not use speed 5. I can also take the Synscan handset from my Skymax, plug it into the socket on the Virtuoso, and I have full GOTO.

Clear skies,

Geoff

[Girders]

Thanks Geoff. That's brilliant to hear someone happy with the Virtuoso mount.  So far we've used it manually with the clutches released as I was waiting for the DC mains adapter to arrive in the post. We already had a large car battery jump starter pack so I'm hoping to run it off that when we are away from home.  I've got a busy few days coming up but hopefully by the end if next week I'll have managed a go with the tracking set up.

We got out with it again last night and my daughter had her first go and loved seeing the moon so close. And the scope is a perfect size for her - not feeling too huge and intimidating for a 4 year old.

I'm really pleased with the scope but it's also good to hear the mount can handle something a bit bigger if need be - I think the quoted limit is 4kg which would give us a few options. And yes, the ability to add GOTO is a benefit I might consider after a while.

Thanks

David

 

[happy-kat]

I'm also very fond of ours. I use it with a celestron liFeP04 battery and have a synscan v3 handset I picked up cheaply.

[Nyctimene]

On 30.11.2017 at 07:39, Charic said:

ready for quick dashes out the door on good nights.

As Charic pointed out above, the scope will benefit from cooling down before observing; as a rule of thumb, about five minutes cooling time per inch of aperture - so in case of your 114 mm about 20 to 30 minutes, depending on the temperature differences between room and outdoor temperature. But  nevertheless you can start observing earlier, by using low magnifications to look at open clusters and star fields. When the scope gets more and more acclimatised, you'll be able to switch to higher magnifications. But it's still best practice to take the scope out half an hour before observing (pointed upward at an angle of about 45°; secured ; cap and eyepiece removed).

Small Newtonians with parabolic mirrors, like yours, are very capable and versatile scopes - I' m sure, you and your family will enjoy the 4 1/2" for several years (and later on for travels and grab-and-go use).

Clear skies

Stephan

[Girders]

11 minutes ago, Nyctimene said:

But it's still best practice to take the scope out half an hour before observing (pointed upward at an angle of about 45°; secured ; cap and eyepiece removed).

Clear skies

Stephan

Thanks Stephan. We've been putting it out and then having dinner while it cools (although hadn't thought to take the eyepiece cap off too).  Lots of "care" stuff to learn too - had to Google last night to check what position it should be stored in - and fortunately found a page with good tips. 

[Nyctimene]

1 hour ago, Girders said:

to take the eyepiece cap off

I'm storing my eyepieces always indoors - so it will take a little longer for them to fog/dew up in use (thermal inertia). Before getting indoors again, they all are stowed away in the eyepiece case to avoid condensation of moisture.

Stephan

[Girders]

I'd promised not to hit-and-run after getting so much good advice.  I'll find somewhere more appropriate in the forum for future reports but wanted to post about our first 'proper' session here.

Just to recap, I'd initially been looking at a non-goto, small form (tabletop) dobsonian between 100-150mm aperture and ended up going for a Skywatcher Heritage Virtuoso 114p which had the bonus of offering tracking (and the ability to add goto later).  Our aim was primarily for lunar and planetary observing - including use by my four year old daughter.

We quickly managed a couple of evening sessions and have been very happy with our close ups of the moon with our supplied 25mm and 10mm eyepieces (20x and 50x).  We also picked up a 6mm (83x) and a 2x barlow and broke them out for the first time early this morning.  We're still only using the scope manually and haven't tried the tracking yet, so finding (and keeping) targets in frame is still a bit of a learning curve, but I managed a good look at Jupiter as a clear circle (a little too bright to see any real banding) and then Mars as a smaller pinkish toned disc.  I *think* that was at 83x and I 'lost' them when adding in the barlow.  But I re-located Jupiter with the 6mm (no barlow) and dragged my wife and daughter out of bed around 7am for a look (which they were delighted with). Hoping for another clear night tonight and I might head out for another early start.

Main things I've learned so far:

• We'll need to get tracking and goto set up to make things easier when taking turns viewing and changing eyepieces.
• Despite researching and knowing the planets would be small, the were even smaller than expected. 
• I've been seeing Jupiter and Mars with the naked eye for years and not realised!
• Planetary positioning and rise/set is very frustrating - we'll be waiting quite a while for a look at Saturn.
• A very solid stable table is still subject to a fair bit of shake when placed on decking.

Thanks again for all the advice and assistance.  I'm really happy with our choice and looking forward to many more cold nights to come!

 

[happy-kat]

That's a lovely first report. Decking yep been there it wobbles even breathing made ours wobble. Sometimes the handsets come up second hand I use a synscan v3 with my Virtuoso. Jupiter will probably be steadier when it is higher and not in the murk.

[Girders]

1 minute ago, happy-kat said:

That's a lovely first report. Decking yep been there it wobbles even breathing made ours wobble. Sometimes the handsets come up second hand I use a synscan v3 with my Virtuoso. Jupiter will probably be steadier when it is higher and not in the murk.

Thanks.  I'd started keeping an eye for a used/refurb synscan handset but then discovered the new skywatcher wifi adapter (which seems compatible) and seems a good option for adding goto via an android phone in a much more user friendly way than the handsets. And cheaper too!

[Stu]

1 minute ago, Girders said:

Thanks.  I'd started keeping an eye for a used/refurb synscan handset but then discovered the new skywatcher wifi adapter (which seems compatible) and seems a good option for adding goto via an android phone in a much more user friendly way than the handsets. And cheaper too!

The Wifi adaptor seems to be a great idea. If you do want a handset then Astroboot have a few around at the moment.

http://www.astroboot.co.uk/AstroBoot

Nice first light report by the way  

[Charic]

34 minutes ago, Girders said:

Main things I've learned so far:

• We'll need to get tracking and goto set up to make things easier when taking turns viewing and changing eyepieces.
• Despite researching and knowing the planets would be small, the were even smaller than expected. 
• I've been seeing Jupiter and Mars with the naked eye for years and not realised!
• Planetary positioning and rise/set is very frustrating - we'll be waiting quite a while for a look at Saturn.
• A very solid stable table is still subject to a fair bit of shake when placed on decking.

 

This is all good, some folk unfortunately, would still be trying to set up their scope at this stage?  but here your already discovering some of the ups and downs as a newbie, and to be honest predictable  minor issues,  all easy enough to rectify, for example, the stability of the supporting system from the ground up.

Keep at it, it only gets better the more you learn and understand. The weather will dictate your viewing  times, and the scope itself will limit what you'll see.
And don't think Jupiter is massive in my scope either, but to see all the detail, including a Moon shadow from Io (Pronouced Eye-Oh!  I think ) its the perfect end to any session.

[Astro Imp]

Great to hear you're getting to grips with your new scope. Unfortunately starting in this hobby has a steep learning curve but the good thing is there are plenty of willing and knowledgeable folk here to keep us on track.

I see you mention the Skywatcher wifi adaptor, there is an excellent thread on this here:- https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/304976-skywatcher-synscan-wifi-adapter/

Good luck and enjoy.