Today's newbie looking for scope advice

[Girders]

Hi all, I guess I’m today’s new member looking for advice on buying a scope.  I’ve done a fair bit of research and read a lot of the good advice on here given to others, but I’ve got a few specific questions I’m hoping for some help with.  The good news is that I know exactly what I want to be able to do – view Saturn, Jupiter and the moon and potentially Mars if possible.  I have no interest in deep space objects and will be avoiding any temptation to get involved in astrophotography.

Budget can be up to £250 at a push but preferably lower. If I can’t get something that meets my requirements in budget I’m willing to wait until I can justify spending more.   Storage/size is an issue so I’ve ruled out the larger dobsonians such as the Skyliner 150p.

I’ve got a 4 year old I’d like to be able to have a look at objects with.

Frequent use will be the back garden with trips to dark sites for special occasions.

I’m in Glasgow so will often be taking advantage of gaps in clouds so quick set up essential.

Questions…

1.       As I’m only interested in the moon and brighter planets I’ve been working on the basis that I won’t need/benefit from going down the Goto route. But should I be considering a motorised  mount for tracking purposes?  I’m hoping to be able to get something working up to around 150 magnification – at that level is manual tracking of the planets easily achievable?

2.       Based on cost and storage issues I’d identified the Heritage 100p as an attractive first option but I’m concerned that its 80x supplied magnification won’t provide the views I’m after (banding on Jupiter and clear rings on Saturn) and the scope won’t cope well with higher magnification with additional eyepieces.  Has anyone experience of successfully taking this scope up to 120x plus?

3.       If the Heritage 100p won’t be enough, I’m considering something like the Skywatcher Discovery 130p and particularly like the deluxe AZ mount which looks simpler to use if anyone has thoughts on that.

I’d welcome any thoughts on those two scopes or suggested alternatives.  I’m going along to the Astronomy Weekend at the National Museum of Flight in East Lothian so I’m hoping to get some advice there also, but figured it would be useful to go armed with any suggestions from here.

Thanks in advance,

David

[happy-kat]

Welcome

I have a heritage 130p and can share that observing Saturn using the supplied 10mm saw the ring but I couldn't see the cassini division and it was tiny.

We've also seen a moon shadow transit on Jupiter but I was using a 6mm eyepiece I had added to the supplied eyepieces set and the shadow was a tiny dark dot but a wow moment. Jupiter shows the main bands clearly.

The Moon looks very good.

[Doc]

If you have no need for DSO's and astrophotography then maybe spend a little more and get a Maksutov Cassegrain like the Skymax 127 being F11.8 it's better suited to moon and planets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Girders]

Thanks for the info.  The Heritage 130P should be an obvious choice for me, but the open tube makes me nervous/concerned about dust etc.  I'll have a look at the Skymax 127 which is definitely a good shout and one I'd not really looked at.  

I'm still drawn to the Heritage 100P as it can sit on a desk in the house and every time I see it I'll check what the sky is like, whereas anything requiring a tripod would likely live in a box - and out of sight is out of mind.

Would still like some reassurance that I don't need to be concerned about tracking please.

Thanks

[Ricochet]

I would say that the optimum planetary magnification is going to be in the region of 1-1.2x the aperture in mm which with these scopes is not going to be high enough to cause you any issues with tracking. I imagine that four years old is going to be too young to be in charge of tracking with any scope so it will be up to you to put the object at the edge of the field of view so that it drifts across the centre whilst your child is looking through the eyepiece.

[Girders]

Thanks Ricochet - that's the bit of info that I needed as I didn't  the have any concept as to how fast the drift would be. 

[Geoff Lister]

8 hours ago, Girders said:

The Heritage 130P should be an obvious choice for me, but the open tube makes me nervous/concerned about dust etc.

I have a Heritage 130p and have not had any problems with dust. When collapsed, the cover seals the open end. An old shirt, draped over it, will make an additional dust cover.

Geoff

[Girders]

Thanks Geoff. I'll add it back onto my list and keep an eye out for anyone using one at the weekend 

[Ricochet]

8 hours ago, Girders said:

Thanks Ricochet - that's the bit of info that I needed as I didn't  the have any concept as to how fast the drift would be. 

If you're after some numbers we can do a quick back of the envelope calculation. We know that the stars appearing to move is due to the Earth's rotation so a star will be in the same spot roughly 24 hours later (not quite, but it makes the numbers easier for this). Converting 24 hours into seconds:

24h = 24 x 60 x 60 s
24h = 24 x 10 x 6 x 60 s
24h = 240 x 360 s

We also know that there are 360° in a circle so the drift speed is 360 / (240 x 360) = 1/240 degrees/second

To get a drift time across an eyepiece we need to know its True field of view (TFoV).  Once we have that we can use

Drift time = TFoV / drift speed  = 240 * TFoV

We can approximate the TFoV given by an eyepiece with:

TFoV = AFoV / Magnification

Assuming that you use basic eyepieces with a 50°AFoV then your TFoV will be 1° at 50x, 1/2° at 100x, 1/3° at 150x, 1/4° at 200x, so if you put an object at one side of the field of view and allow it to drift all the way to the other side the time taken will be in the region of:

50x : 240/1 = 240s
100x : 240/2 = 120s
150x : 240/3 = 80s
200x : 240/4 = 60s

 

 

[Dave In Vermont]

The 127mm Maksutov scopes are excellent for the Moon & planets. No issues with collimation to speak of either. They were used on Soviet tanks during WWII, so should be pretty 'bomb-proof' for having a 4 year old looking through!

And at 127mm, they would be quite capable of revealing many DSO's, should your interests develop beyond our local neighborhood of objects to view.

Saving up your £££'s may be required - but I'd say well worth it.

Have fun!

Dave

[Girders]

Thanks again Ricochet. The importance of all the numbers thrown around in product specs is starting to make sense to me - and your summary at the end was very helpful.

And to Doc & Dave suggesting the Mak 127, I think you may have picked my *next* scope for me, but for now I think that would require too much negotiation with my wife in terms of budget and storage!

[Dave In Vermont]

A 127mm Mak is actually a very small 'looking' telescope. But with it's folded optics - combination of mirrors & lenses - it's a very powerful scope! It just looks small. Utterly deceptive. Might even fool your 'better-half.' Or a German Tank-Kommander.

Not going there......

Dave

[Charic]

17 hours ago, Girders said:

I’m going along to the Astronomy Weekend at the National Museum of Flight in East Lothian so I’m hoping to get some advice there

Just hope the weather is fitting so that you can look through any scope that may be in use during the evening.
Don't discount  too early the 150mm or 200mm Dobsonian mounted telescopes like the Skywatcher Skyliner which is a Newtonian telescope mounted on the very simple to use Dobsonian base.

Either scope takes up the floor space of a kitchen chair when fully set up, but their performance, considering their cost/value is outstanding. You wont go wrong with the 150P, but the larger aperture of the 200P will be of more benefit. 
The Planets are not always best placed for observation, so getting a scope 'just' for planets could be a let down. Have you also considered binoculars, especially low powered ones like 7x50 for your Son, and maybe some 8x40's or 10x50s for yourself? You wont see planetary detail, but your Son should see the Moons of Jupiter at this level, and just for scanning the night skies, he will literally see thousands more Stars with binoculars. Also, not sure how 'dark' your patch of Glasgow is, but going somewhere where you can't see manmade light or glow, will give you a spectacular sight of the night sky. 

I'll be visiting Glasgow early December, but the highlight for any observation  for me should be somewhere along the A9 at night between Perth and Aviemore, and I'll just have my 10x50 binoculars with me for this trip. I would  have to get the timings right for the journey, in order to see the Stars, but for now, the trip will be driven during the daylight hours 

[Girders]

Thanks Charic. I know the Skyliners would be perfect for what I want to do, but there's no way I can have one sitting out taking up space with a 4 year old running around - and if it gets put away it will (almost) never make it back out again.  Same goes for the Mak 127 option - although the telescope body isn't large I'd have to find a home for it and the mount/tripod.

I know that my opportunities for observing the  planets will be limited - and compounded by weather and timings that are un-four-year-old-friendly. Which is part of the reason I'm reluctant to commit too much money/space to it.

We've done the binocular evenings with a set of decent 10x50s which I recently bought a tripod mount for. My daughter enjoyed looking at the Moon with them and seeing more detail, but a star was "still just a star".

I think for what I/she needs at the moment a tabletop dobsonian is probably still the way to go for now. The weather for the weekend doesn't look great (we're going on Saturday) but there should be plenty to see and do indoors anyway.

Thanks again everyone for all the advice, it was really useful to be reassured that I don't need to worry about go-to or a motorised mount. And I'll file the Mak127 suggestion away for next time around.

And I promise not to be a hit-and-run poster - I'll be back to let you know how I get on.

David

[Geoff Lister]

The Skymax 127 can fit in a small space and is easy for transport

This is my second one at my holiday home in France. The £50 webcam is fine for recording 640 x 480 stills or videos of the moon and planets. The red wine is an optional extra.

Geoff

[Girders]

Thanks Geoff. That is surprisingly compact, but I think what I'm wanting to avoid is my own inertia. A tabletop dobsonian can sit covered on a desk etc and if I see a clear bit if sky I can (and will be) outside in 5 mins to start it cooling. But if it's something that's packed away, it's probably not going to cross my mind - and if it does I'd likely decide there's no point unpacking as it will have clouded over by the time I'm set up. Of course, I know that's a flaw of mine and not the scope, but it is nevertheless a likely outcome. But yes, if I was spending time in France where I might be aiming/expecting to get some good skies every second night I'd definitely go for a set up like that and never pack it away.  I'm realistic enough to recognize that if I don't make it easy for myself to use it often, it's likely to be a two night wonder and gather dust thereafter. 

Equally, I know that if I fall in love with the hobby a mini dobsonian won't be enough for me, but i think I'd still find it a useful think to have, or let my little girl learn on herself as she gets older. And at that point I'll go for a Make 127 or 8" dob (and maybe the house in France to make good use if them!).

Cheers.

[Girders]

Had a good day and evening at the Astronomy event at National Museum of Scotland Museum of Flight in East Lothian with some nice clear skies in pretty dark location.  It's also resulted in some good news and bad news for my telescope purchasing plans.  On the plus side, my wife is definitely interested in participating (she was hooked on seeing the Andromeda galaxy) so budget and storage may not be quite so difficult to overcome.  On the downside, it's made me realise how affected we are by light pollution at home, so I'm having to revise the idea that most of our observing would be from the garden.  It also emphasised that while my 4 year old daughter is very interested, she's also not happy being out in the cold for too long.  So I'm going away to have a think about exactly how we think will fit in with our life/location before making any purchase.  Thanks again for everyone's help.  No doubt I'll be back in a week or two for more advice once I know what I'm looking for.  But I'm afraid a 6" or 8" Dobson is probably still off limits when we need to fit two adults and a 4 year old in a car seat in the car! 

 

[LukeSkywatcher]

Im undecided. Usually i sing the praises of the Heritage 130P. Its a fantastic scope. The 127, does look good and after a bit of a learning curve will put you on your target quickly. Kids want instant gratification, so G0-To would be good. 

My main concern is the Scottish winters. Kids do not like to be cold. Obviously you would layer up your daughters clothing but im not sure that would make much different to her. 4 yrs old is a fine age to get kids into astronomy. There are other ways though besides having her outside in the cold.

You could download Stellarium:

www.stellarium.org

You can show her the beauty of the night sky this way.

Books are good. Im sure there are plenty of books out there for the young budding astronomers.

You may even be able to put the 127 outside and control it from inside the house and display what it sees on the computer.

[Girders]

3 minutes ago, LukeSkywatcher said:

Im undecided. Usually i sing the praises of the Heritage 130P. Its a fantastic scope. The 127, does look good and after a bit of a learning curve will put you on your target quickly. Kids want instant gratification, so G0-To would be good. 

My main concern is the Scottish winters. Kids do not like to be cold. Obviously you would layer up your daughters clothing but im not sure that would make much different to her. 4 yrs old is a fine age to get kids into astronomy. There are other ways though besides having her outside in the cold.

You could download Stellarium:

www.stellarium.org

You can show her the beauty of the night sky this way.

Books are good. Im sure there are plenty of books out there for the young budding astronomers.

You may even be able to put the 127 outside and control it from inside the house and display what it sees on the computer.

Thanks for the great post.  Stellarium download is on my to-do list (and I think I may have been talked through some stuff on it today - or something very similar).  We've been looking at lots of space resources online; she likes watching rocket launches on youtube and she's got a couple of good kids astronomy books.  She also got the chance to handle some meteorites today and although she didn't know it yet had already ordered me some small meteorite samples for my Christmas :-)   We did get a bit of frustration today when trying telescopes and being unsure what she was seeing, and my wife had asked about the idea of linking it up to a viewing screen but I suspected that would be £££ but I'm now going off to have a google...

[Astro Imp]

Good to hear you a good visit to the National Museum of Scotland.

If you are primarily interested in planetary and lunar viewing don't let the local light pollution put you off. 

Good luck.

[Girders]

2 minutes ago, Astro Imp said:

If you are primarily interested in planetary and lunar viewing don't let the local light pollution put you off. 

Thanks Alan, I definitely am, however my wife was very taken with the idea of spotting galaxies tonight so all my previous thoughts are very much up in the air again.

[Charic]

On 17/11/2017 at 13:44, Girders said:

My daughter enjoyed looking at the Moon with them and seeing more detail, but a star was "still just a star".

......unfortunately it will always be 'just a star' no matter which scope you choose?

Stars will always appear as just a single point of light, their just too far distant for you to be able to discern any detail.

[popeye85]

On 18/11/2017 at 21:14, Girders said:

Had a good day and evening at the Astronomy event at National Museum of Scotland Museum of Flight in East Lothian with some nice clear skies in pretty dark location.  

Good evening Girders! Glad you enjoyed your evening-i think I was actually chatting to you and your good lady! I was set up with a 8"dob and was viewing Andromeda at the time! 

It's always good when your manage to win the financial advisor around to your way of thinking but in the meantime if you want to get more 'scope time'then just give me a shout and we can arrange to meet up, I also have a 6"scope which you are free to look through to get a better idea of what you might get with slightly smaller aperture.

[jetstream]

The Heritage 130 does very well on galaxies from dark sites-M81,M82,M51,M101,M33 etc. It is also great for lunar/planetary which we use a 3-6 Nagler zoom- highly recommended. The supplied 25mm Super plossl is a very useable eyepiece, the 10mm not so much. A 10mm BCO ortho fits nicely here. Fit a 1.25" Astronomik OIII to the 25mm and so much is visible- the Veil,NAN,Rosette on and on.

We mount ours on a tripod at times which works VG.

[Girders]

16 hours ago, popeye85 said:

Good evening Girders! Glad you enjoyed your evening-i think I was actually chatting to you and your good lady! I was set up with a 8"dob and was viewing Andromeda at the time! 

Hi Popeye, certainly sounds like we could have been chatting on Saturday - my wee girl is Elizabeth. And thanks for your patience with her! A large Dobson was never really on the cards for us but it was really useful to see her attempts to view through it and made me appreciate how important the physical aspects are going to be for us/her. Which end do we need the eyepiece at? How high off the ground will it be? All factors to consider. And it's also got me realising that we need to see if we can use a smartphone adapter to let her view that way initially.

As for a scope, as Jetstream and many others have said, the Heritage 130p seems to be pretty much the default position for beginners - and that's for a reason. I think that will be our likely purchase, but I'm off now to look at how it copes with a smartphone hanging off it and whether I need a light shield (the open tube makes me nervous around a 4 year old!).

I'm also going to get better with stellarium and work out if we need to rush through our purchase in case we miss some good night's for planetary observation.

And thanks for the offer of a meet up. Once we get up and running having muddled through couple of nights (which is half the fun) I'll be hoping to get out with a group somewhere to really learn the ropes.