Star Adventurer or EQ3?

[sza85]

Hi!

I'm planning to buy my first mount, a Skywatcher Star Adventurer, mainly for wide field shots, with portability in mind! This would be a stepping stone for better mounts later. I was looking around on the used market, when someone approached me with a self designed and built (H)EQ3 mount for sale:

- controlled with EQMOD
- GOTO
- NEMA 17 0.9° stepping motor
- 3D printed electronic box and motor sockets
- Bluetooth
- Guiding port

Picture attached of the EQ3.

I have no experience with mounts like these. The seller says it is accurate up to 400mm with a DSLR+lens combination, and it's portable, but I don't know how heavy it is. I can sacrifice some portability, if it's way better than a Star Adventurer in terms of pure tracking and performance.

Is it?

Thanks in advance!

[Galen Gilmore]

normally I would think that the star adventurer would be better than the eq3 for wide field stuff, but since this eq3 is modified it might be better. The EQ3 does have goto which is a big plus when it comes to astrophotography, plus its got everything that the star adventurer has. It is also sturdier, so if you wanted to you could attach some kind of scope to it in the future, but if portability is really an issue then go for the star adventurer. I don't know the exact specifications, but I would guess that the eq3 is about 5kg heavier, and its bulkier.

Now I'm gonna let somebody who actually knows what they're talking about have a turn! 

[sza85]

Thanks for the reply Galen Gilmore! I think that the EQ3 is a bit better in terms of tracking, but it's heavier, and needs an external battery + a laptop for the EQMOD. Hiking up a few hundred meters looking for dark skies for some nice milky way shots with all that stuff is not that fun... This is my only concern against the EQ3. I will also use it from my backyard with some longer lenses, like 100-200mm. For that, the EQ3 would be better I guess. Tough decision with no experience... :/

[tooth_dr]

I've never used an EQ3, but have an EQ6 and recently bought a SA.  For portability the SA is great, light enough to carry and easy to set up.  For permanent use at home then the EQ6 is best, but thats not to say the SA cant be used at home also, and I've been trying it out recently with great results.  I'm always wary of buying something that is 'in between' - often ends up being good at neither of it's intended purposes.

 

Personally I'd go for the SA, then in the future get an HEQ5 or 6 for use at home.

[sza85]

Thanks tooth_dr!

[Frank the Troll]

The EQ3 mount is easily portable, and has the advantage over the Star Adventurer in that it will take larger newts and fracks

Your EQ3 is a bit of an unknown, so cant comment on it.  The EQ3 pro Synscn goto new from FLO is £400

2nd hand they can be picked up quite cheaply

 

[Alien 13]

The EQ3-2 is fine for DSLR and lenses up to 200 mm fl with just the single axis motor (can be run of mobile phone 5V power bank if you make up a lead).

The Star Adventurer is fine for DSLR and lenses up to 200 mm fl and is probably a bit more accurate and certainly lighter.

The EQ3-2 can though hold a small MAK for lunar/planetary imaging and the slow motion control on the other axis helps to find and center them.

Alan

[Nomad Z]

My EQ3 Pro head, with all the Synscan gubbins, in a bag, weighs about 14kg. That's with both counterweights, so would be lighter if only one was needed. The tripod is quite light at about 2kg. As noted, a separate power supply is needed as well. The 17Ah jump starter from Halfords weighs 6kg.

[sza85]

Oh well, I would swear that an EQ-3 must be better, but... You say Star Adventurer. Thanks for all the replies so far!

[bobro]

1) 'EQ3' 

This has NMEA17 stepper motors. These types of stepper motors consume significant power. You would need to ask the seller about the power supply for them. Needs big batteries.

Stepper motors can be very noisy when slewing.

EQMOD and goto means a PC - more weight and power.

Alignment takes longer - both polar and star.

The EQ3 is the older black mount - not much value secondhand.

What is the power spec for the custom interface box?

How well does it work? What happens if it breaks?

Doesn't have direct mounting for a camera.

2) Star Adventurer

Lightweight power with small batteries.

No goto - but you don't need goto for widefield.

Has polar alignment.

Has camera mount.

Easy to sell if you don't like it.

 

As a low cost alternative, an EQ2 mount/tripod costs about £55 used (cheaper on ebay, especially with a scope) and an  RA motor £30. That setup will support a small scope too. Simply align it with a spirit level (for latitude scale) and compass (for north).

Hope this helps.

 

[sza85]

Thank you very much bobro! Experienced replies sure help!

[SteveNickolls]

Hi SZA85, thanks for your post. I can't say anything about the 'modified EQ3' but agree with the pro-cons that bobro identifies. I do however have some experience now using the Star Adventurer and can't sing it's praises well enough for a portable mount. You will need to provide a tripod for its use of course and I have found (not getting on well with the wedge) that the SA sits well on top of an old Celestron Alt-Az mount, the hand controls make polar alignment very accurate and easy to perform. A tripod with a 3/8" bolt will secure the SA or Wedge.

The SA uses x4 AA batteries which seem to last forever but it can be powered off a USB charger. I have been steadily working my way up with longer and heavier camera/lens and ball head combinations and been astonished at the pin-point tracking of the mount. Two nights ago I ventured taking 4 minute exposures at 200mm with no problems and found that even over three successive exposures there was no discernible movement (using BYEOS) off a targeted star.

Good luck whatever you decide to go with however.

Cheers,
Steve

[sza85]

Thank you very much Steve! It seems the majority of the people I've asked votes for the SA, so then it must be better. It's not easy to decide without any experience, but I'm really glad that I've signed up to this forum!

[Ericorc]

I have also just purchased recently a SA and reading the above information has made me feel I picked the right solution ..  

[SteveNickolls]

As an update to my previous post of the 2nd September, last night afforded the chance to try the SA mount with a Canon 600D and 75-300mm lens at the 300mm FL setting. The lens was the cheap EF 75-300mm f4-5.6 III. I found that at 180 seconds I was seeing the start of star trailing but reducing exposure time to 150 seconds yielded fine exposures with no obvious trailing. The Camera+lens weigh 1164g together. I had the camera and lens attached on top of a ball head in turn connected to the SA mount. Hope this helps bring some detail into the performance of the unguided mount.

Cheers,
Steve

[tooth_dr]

5 minutes ago, SteveNickolls said:

As an update to my previous post of the 2nd September, last night afforded the chance to try the SA mount with a Canon 600D and 75-300mm lens at the 300mm FL setting. The lens was the cheap EF 75-300mm f4-5.6 III. I found that at 180 seconds I was seeing the start of star trailing but reducing exposure time to 150 seconds yielded fine exposures with no obvious trailing. The Camera+lens weigh 1164g together. I had the camera and lens attached on top of a ball head in turn connected to the SA mount. Hope this helps bring some detail into the performance of the unguided mount.

Cheers,
Steve

Hi Steve, what ball head are you using? My camera/lens weighs 1229g + dew strap and my ball head really struggles to hold it. 

[SteveNickolls]

Just now, tooth_dr said:

 

6 minutes ago, SteveNickolls said:

As an update to my previous post of the 2nd September, last night afforded the chance to try the SA mount with a Canon 600D and 75-300mm lens at the 300mm FL setting. The lens was the cheap EF 75-300mm f4-5.6 III. I found that at 180 seconds I was seeing the start of star trailing but reducing exposure time to 150 seconds yielded fine exposures with no obvious trailing. The Camera+lens weigh 1164g together. I had the camera and lens attached on top of a ball head in turn connected to the SA mount. Hope this helps bring some detail into the performance of the unguided mount.

Cheers,
Steve

Hi Steve, what ball head are you using? My camera/lens weighs 1229g + dew strap and my ball head really struggles to hold it. 

 

Hi, I have something equivalent to this-https://www.amazon.co.uk/Andoer-Camera-Tripod-Ballhead-Release/dp/B00JSJXH3Q rated to hold 8kg. I think there are a lot of similar models out there and I just bought the cheapest :-) I find you have to treat tightening up the adjustment knobs as something of a ritual, being careful not to cause any movement in the mount or move the clutch, a practiced art almost. Once the knobs are tightened it's fine all session. In terms of combined camera/lens payload weight the set up has been fine with my Samyang 135mm lens which with the camera weighs in at 1569g. Hope you find something that suits you.

Best regards,
Steve

[tooth_dr]

Thanks for the link @SteveNickolls I'd seen that one before so good to hear some positive feedback. I had considered just adding a small piece of dovetail bar to the camera but this limits alignment. 

[SteveNickolls]

Hi, another update on using the SA mount which might prove of interest in polar aligning the mount 

Last night I was able, using exactly the same equipment as mentioned in my post yesterday, to get twenty successive  180 seconds exposures using the 300mm lens with no trailing. FWIW I waited completing polar alignment until Polaris was just on one of the marked divisions on the reticle of the polar scope then started the tracking. I'm using the SkyWatcher app meant for the mini-SA mount but the polar clock utility works and matches the reticle on the polar scope of the SA mount too. I'm going on other nights try out the bracket and counterweight arm and see what influence this has on tracking. Good luck to all others using this mount.

Cheers,
Steve

[sza85]

On 2017. 09. 10. at 10:35, SteveNickolls said:

Hi, another update on using the SA mount which might prove of interest in polar aligning the mount 

Last night I was able, using exactly the same equipment as mentioned in my post yesterday, to get twenty successive  180 seconds exposures using the 300mm lens with no trailing. FWIW I waited completing polar alignment until Polaris was just on one of the marked divisions on the reticle of the polar scope then started the tracking. I'm using the SkyWatcher app meant for the mini-SA mount but the polar clock utility works and matches the reticle on the polar scope of the SA mount too. I'm going on other nights try out the bracket and counterweight arm and see what influence this has on tracking. Good luck to all others using this mount.

Cheers,
Steve

I also received my Star Adventurer. I've only tried it 2 times yet, once with a 18-55 kit lens at 55mm (82 in reality), I was able to take 3 minute exposures with minimal error (bad polar alignment / tripod kick / resonance). The second time I was using my 200mm Takumar (300mm on my D5500) and the max length I was able to take was 30 secs without trailing. At 1 minute there was significant trailing / resonance / moving or something else. I have the declanation unit, a ball head, my camera, a battery grip, and the lens attached, this is around 2 kgs. Should I use the counterweight? What else could be the problem? The tripod was leveled, and polar alignment was good (I'm using an app to align).

[SteveNickolls]

4 hours ago, sza85 said:

Should I use the counterweight? What else could be the problem?

Hi, I'm pleased to hear you received your SA mount and have been able to try it out. Two outings is early days to get used to new equipment so I wouldn't worry over the mount but try approaches that lessen the star trailing you are getting. My approach has been to steadily increase the FL lenses used and see what exposure times can be achieved, modifying my process accordingly. 

You really do need to take time getting a good polar alignment, especially with longer FL lenses, any error will be more evident as FL increases. Do you have the SkyWatcher SAM app meant for the smaller wi-fi controlled mount? It has a useful polar alignment capability you can put to use for the SA itself. The view you get on the app = that in the SA polar scope. Just recently when I moved up to using a 300mm lens I found that I could only achieve 150 seconds exposures without trailing but the next night, finishing aligning (moving the dial to start tracking) when Polaris was just on a division on the reticule meant polar alignment was more accurate and I could get 180 seconds. I haven't got on well with the supplied wedge which I found coarse and awkward to use in the dark and instead use an old Celestron Alt-Az mount with adjustment controls that are smooth and intuitive to use, but that's a personal thing allowing me to perform a good polar alignment where control is king). The combination of the wedge RA and DEC adjustment process and adjusting and keeping the polar illuminator device in place adds pressure to get alignment done fast which is not a good thing. If you use the bracket and counterweight the illuminator will fall off without cause so you need to engineer a means of keeping the illuminator in place. Sticky Velcro is your friend here :-) Another thing that might be causing you an issue is having to look through the polar finder at an awkward, uncomfortable angle. I find I cannot bend to see directly through the polar scope and kneeling hurts my old legs even with a cushion. You can get right angled adapters to fit on the end of the polar scope to give a comfortable view so you are not self-pressured into rushing polar alignment. 

Once you have polar aligned you need to be careful attaching and tightening the imaging gear so as not to knock the mount, this gets easier the more you practice and it almost goes without saying that doing this in the dark and in the cold adds to the potential for things to go awry.

As regards your tripod anything you can do to make it more sturdy is good. I use a 3kg house brick to help keep the tripod sturdy. You might try not extending your tripod fully to help reduce flexure at joints and check all joints are stiff. I initially used a heavy tripod to hold the SA but it did not hold the mount still enough in use. 

As you mention your gear weighs 2kg I would suggest using the bracket and counterweight and see what improvement this produces for you. You can practice getting balance right in the daytime. I have found I can focus the camera with it attached to the bracket/counterweight, move it out the way of obstructing polar alignment, then with alignment completed and the mount tracking adjust the direction of the camera to point at the object to be imaged. Again practice helps.

Good luck.

Cheers,
Steve

 

[sza85]

26 minutes ago, SteveNickolls said:

Hi, I'm pleased to hear you received your SA mount and have been able to try it out. Two outings is early days to get used to new equipment so I wouldn't worry over the mount but try approaches that lessen the star trailing you are getting. My approach has been to steadily increase the FL lenses used and see what exposure times can be achieved, modifying my process accordingly. 

You really do need to take time getting a good polar alignment, especially with longer FL lenses, any error will be more evident as FL increases. Do you have the SkyWatcher SAM app meant for the smaller wi-fi controlled mount? It has a useful polar alignment capability you can put to use for the SA itself. The view you get on the app = that in the SA polar scope. Just recently when I moved up to using a 300mm lens I found that I could only achieve 150 seconds exposures without trailing but the next night, finishing aligning (moving the dial to start tracking) when Polaris was just on a division on the reticule meant polar alignment was more accurate and I could get 180 seconds. I haven't got on well with the supplied wedge which I found coarse and awkward to use in the dark and instead use an old Celestron Alt-Az mount with adjustment controls that are smooth and intuitive to use, but that's a personal thing allowing me to perform a good polar alignment where control is king). The combination of the wedge RA and DEC adjustment process and adjusting and keeping the polar illuminator device in place adds pressure to get alignment done fast which is not a good thing. If you use the bracket and counterweight the illuminator will fall off without cause so you need to engineer a means of keeping the illuminator in place. Sticky Velcro is your friend here :-) Another thing that might be causing you an issue is having to look through the polar finder at an awkward, uncomfortable angle. I find I cannot bend to see directly through the polar scope and kneeling hurts my old legs even with a cushion. You can get right angled adapters to fit on the end of the polar scope to give a comfortable view so you are not self-pressured into rushing polar alignment. 

Once you have polar aligned you need to be careful attaching and tightening the imaging gear so as not to knock the mount, this gets easier the more you practice and it almost goes without saying that doing this in the dark and in the cold adds to the potential for things to go awry.

As regards your tripod anything you can do to make it more sturdy is good. I use a 3kg house brick to help keep the tripod sturdy. You might try not extending your tripod fully to help reduce flexure at joints and check all joints are stiff. I initially used a heavy tripod to hold the SA but it did not hold the mount still enough in use. 

As you mention your gear weighs 2kg I would suggest using the bracket and counterweight and see what improvement this produces for you. You can practice getting balance right in the daytime. I have found I can focus the camera with it attached to the bracket/counterweight, move it out the way of obstructing polar alignment, then with alignment completed and the mount tracking adjust the direction of the camera to point at the object to be imaged. Again practice helps.

Good luck.

Cheers,
Steve

 

Thanks for your reply Steve!

 

I'm using the app called PS Align, but I also have the SA Mini's app, both are the same really. Tripod wise, I purchased the Star Adventurer's own tripod, it's pretty sturdy, could be more sturdier if I wouldn't have to extend it for aligning (I will try without extending it, but...). The adapter you mentioned would be a nice improvement. Could you suggest one?

Basically I already have the declination unit + a ball head + my DSLR + lens attached before polar alignment, because I have an extender for the illuminator, which falls off all the time like you said So after the alignment, I only have to do the focusing, and pointing the camera to the right direction (these of course can ruin the alignment, but I try to be careful).

What I can try to improve:

- weight down the tripod somehow
- place it on sturdier ground, without extension
- try the counterweight

As you suggested I decided to work my way up from my widest lenses, and I will try to achieve maximum exposure times, and hopefully I will learn everything possible until I start to use the really long lenses (which I can't wait... damn

And for the longer lenses I will need a finder scope because it was a complete cabaret for the first time when I tried to point my tele lens in the right direction. I just don't know if I should try to attach a finder scope for my camera's hot shoe adapter, or to the other side of the declination unit (and how...)

Best regards,
Árpád
 

[SteveNickolls]

Hi Árpád,

Thanks for your message. All the things you mention to try will help make a more solid base for imaging off, good luck trying them out. I held back suggesting any particular right angled adapter for the polar scope as they seem to vary so much in price but I have since re-located the one I bought which can be viewed here-http://www.darkframeoptics.com/product/polarite-right-angled-polarscope I'm sure a look on the Internet might find you a cheaper but similar accessory.

I have a red led finder attached to the hot shoe of my Canon 600D and it serves to get you in the right location for imaging. You need to be careful when moving the camera towards an object that you don't cause any movement to the mount or tripod that would spoil your alignment. You do get used to being gentle moving the ball head but making sure it grips the camera well.

I also use BYEOS to control imaging as I have found it very useful for checking stars are pin sharp (on a laptop screen) as well as alerting me to clouds as you get to see every exposure as it downloads. One advantage of controlling through a laptop is you get to stay in the warm :-)

Clear skies,
Steve

 

[sza85]

9 hours ago, SteveNickolls said:

Hi Árpád,

Thanks for your message. All the things you mention to try will help make a more solid base for imaging off, good luck trying them out. I held back suggesting any particular right angled adapter for the polar scope as they seem to vary so much in price but I have since re-located the one I bought which can be viewed here-http://www.darkframeoptics.com/product/polarite-right-angled-polarscope I'm sure a look on the Internet might find you a cheaper but similar accessory.

I have a red led finder attached to the hot shoe of my Canon 600D and it serves to get you in the right location for imaging. You need to be careful when moving the camera towards an object that you don't cause any movement to the mount or tripod that would spoil your alignment. You do get used to being gentle moving the ball head but making sure it grips the camera well.

I also use BYEOS to control imaging as I have found it very useful for checking stars are pin sharp (on a laptop screen) as well as alerting me to clouds as you get to see every exposure as it downloads. One advantage of controlling through a laptop is you get to stay in the warm :-)

Clear skies,
Steve

 

I will look for something similar, thanks! As far as precise pointing goes, I ordered a small $8 5x24 finder scope (only because of the magnification - it looks really light) and a hot shoe adapter, and I will fabricate a small wood piece between the two, so I will be able to attach the scope.

Moving the ball head is a bit problematic, it would be better to use only the declination unit, but it's not that easy to point to the right location using only that (and it's easier to align - for now at least - if the reticle is in the default location, with 6 at the bottom). Next time I will try to point to the right direction first, then align, and then correct the lens direction I guess.

I was considering BYNikon too, but I don't know about that yet. For really precise focusing I used DigiCamControl before, it's a pretty good free software, and it has an "astronomy module". I just don't want to take the laptop out but I shouldn't be lazy I know My concern is that there are more and more vapor / dew etc every day.

 

Best regards,
Árpád

[SteveNickolls]

Hi Árpád, the finder scope should work fine helping to position your camera on target. It is a practiced art moving the camera with loosened ball head to where you want while looking through the finder and then tightening the knobs back up without affecting alignment but it is quite possible to do. I keep the '6' at the bottom of the reticule but I'd be interested in your results.

I quite understand your reluctance taking a laptop out each imaging session though I would think its own internal heat would help keep the effects of dew away. Is there somewhere it would have some cover, or even make one? You would want to ensure no stray light from the laptop affected the camera too. My imaging location is outside the kitchen, a limited aspect but close enough to run an active 10m usb cable to the camera and control things from indoors. I am contemplating a gazebo down the garden which on some nights I could operate the laptop down there from and just have a mains power extension with rcd protection to run the laptop all night long. From there I'd have views to the south and west which I currently don't have outside the kitchen. On the subject of dewing I have found attaching a disposable hand warmer with an elastic band around the end of the lens works a treat all night.

Not come across DigiCamControl but if it works well for you then that's fine. BYN will be quite similar to BYEOS and there's a good Astro Imaging Channel video with Guy presenting BYEOS to give a flavour of what it can do (at the time of the programme BYN was being created).

There's also ATP but I found BYEOS more user friendly but it's all down to what suits the individual. BYEOS can control focusing with some lenses but not all. I manually focus using the camera's Live View then turn off Live View as its operation generates heat which the camera sensor interprets as signal. I then use BYEOS to check framing, to double check focus using the laptop's larger screen and to organise taking frames while you have the option to either stay warm indoors or go outside and observe the sky with binoculars.

Cheers,
Steve