How should m13 look?

[Mr niall]

Hello there,

possibly a strange question, but did my first bit of DSO hunting with my SW Mak 127 last weekend. Managed to find M13 relatively easily (well, easily for me... still took a good 10 mins) thanks to Turn Left at Orion but have to say I was fairly underwhelmed. What I was seeing was a definite smudge, and not much more.

I used a vixen NPL 30mm and a skywatcher 7-21mm lens. Best views were using the SW at 21mm. With averted vision I was more or less able to pick out brighter stars and a hint of structure/ shape but nothing head on really but a grey smudge.

Scope was nice and cool so cant really pick out a reason why it was like that, sky was clear, live in a typical suburban area. 

I suppose the real question is what should I be able to see?

many thanks.

[Paul73]

Light pollution? I'm guessing that the moon was pretty bright?

You should get a very tightly packed bunch of stars. So packed that you can't decern individual stars in the middle.

Paul

[faulksy]

at a dark site with no moon, it should look like looking at the sun through a tea strainer

with good conditions and high power you should make out individual stars towards the outer edges and maybe colours

[John]

Through smaller apertures M13 is a glow of light, brighter and more condensed at the centre, and, with a 5" scope, you can see a smattering of stars resolved around the edges of it.

At 8" and especially 10"-12" apertures globular clusters start to look quite spectacular but they can be a little underwhelming at smaller apertures.

The more you study the cluster, the more resolution you will get, if the conditions are good. Medium magnifications help.

From your description the scope was doing a reasonable job. On a really good night you should do a bit better.

 

[Piero]

Hi Niall, 

Globular clusters are targets which respond well with aperture. I find that a 8" aperture at around 1.5mm exit pupil starts opening up globular clusters. A 127mm can resolve the outer stars of the cluster, leaving the core more like a cloud. A ~20mm (75x, e.p. 1.6mm) eyepiece should be a good trade-off between image brightness and magnification with your telescope. I suggest to continue working as you did: alternating averted vision and direct vision, gradually teaching your eye to catch more and more photons. The more you observe, the more your pattern recognition skills will improve. Of course it is still a 127mm, so you cannot expect Hubble views. It is still a good aperture to start studying the brightest targets of the Messier and Caldwell catalogues.

If you have a chance to drive to a dark place with your telescope, you will see much more. My TV60 on the Dolomites also resolved the outer stars of M13! Don't be afraid of experimenting with the magnification! Whilst I believe there is a more suitable range of exit pupils for each target class, each target has its more specific `best` image brightness. This is also a bit down to personal tastes!

Have fun and feel free to experiment what suits you the best! 

Piero 

[Highburymark]

20 minutes ago, John said:

Through smaller apertures M13 is a glow of light, brighter and more condensed at the centre, and, with a 5" scope, you can see a smattering of stars resolved around the edges of it.

At 8" and especially 10"-12" apertures globular clusters start to look quite spectacular but they can be a little underwhelming at smaller apertures.

The more you study the cluster, the more resolution you will get, if the conditions are good. Medium magnifications help.

From your description the scope was doing a reasonable job. On a really good night you should do a bit better.

 

Couldn't have put it better - it's really important not to expect too much when learning about your telescopes, eyepieces and what can be achieved with your skies. We might view a target like m13 many times before we start to see real detail.

[Mr niall]

Thanks again everyone - good to know everything is in order! Will keep at it!

[swamp thing]

From a moderately dark site I have observed a subtle granular look over the surface of M13 with my 4.5" Scope as well as some individual stars in the outermost halo.

 

[John]

This is one of the real strengths of somewhere like SGL I feel. You can post a query and within an hour you have a number of responses which help clarify things and give you some confidence

Before SGL I was relying on what I read in books and magazines and really had little idea on what stuff was supposed to look like and whether my eye and scope were showing me anything as it ought to look 

Joining the forum has had the biggest impact on my enjoyment of the hobby of anything I've done astronomy-wise

(sorry for the slight digression !)

 

[Littleguy80]

9 minutes ago, John said:

This is one of the real strengths of somewhere like SGL I feel. You can post a query and within an hour you have a number of responses which help clarify things and give you some confidence

Before SGL I was relying on what I read in books and magazines and really had little idea on what stuff was supposed to look like and whether my eye and scope were showing me anything as it ought to look 

Joining the forum has had the biggest impact on my enjoyment of the hobby of anything I've done astronomy-wise

(sorry for the slight digression !)

 

Totally agree, John. SGL has made a massive difference to me. Answers, encouragement and inspiration are all here in abundance. It's a hobby that can be very frustrating and having a community like SGL can be the difference between a life long passion and a telescope gathering dust in the garage. 

[Littleguy80]

51 minutes ago, John said:

Through smaller apertures M13 is a glow of light, brighter and more condensed at the centre, and, with a 5" scope, you can see a smattering of stars resolved around the edges of it.

Agree with this. On my first viewing of M13, I thought it looked like a nebula. I never pushed the magnification above 50x. Posted an observing report and someone, I think it was Stu, advised me to push magnification up higher. Next time out I went to 150x and found M13 to be quite spectacular. I was using a 6mm BGO so M13 was filling a good amount of the eyepiece. Lots of stars resolvable, even some brighter ones towards the centre. I've had other nights when conditions were poorer and I've been disappointed that M13 didn't look as good. This was another lesson learned. Keep revisiting targets. The views can vary wildly with conditions. Something can be invisible one night and blindingly obvious the next night. I certainly had that experience with the Cassini Division in Saturn's rings though the revisit was a couple of hours later during the same session! I've gotten a little off track but hopefully there's something of use in there  

[Dave In Vermont]

M13 is very dependent on aperture to give you the 'AHH! - Wow!' effect. 127mm - 5" - will be able to tell you it's a globular-cluster, but I was always led to believe that 6" was the minimum aperture for resolving it enough to really see stars "flying out the middle" in terms of the resolving. And very good 'seeing' is needed to pour on more magnification to this end. And the ever-present 'dark skies' will be of great assistance. 

So at 5" you're knocking on the door of 'Wow!' Wait until that pesky, ol' Moon goes away again. Or try again before it rises. It rises here at 11:23pm. All in all you should get a good look with your Mak. A Maksutov is an excellent scope for globular-clusters which excel at small targets.

Enjoy -

Dave

[ronin]

Looking at the the image here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Messier_objects

M13 does seem sort of less distinct in the center portion then others, a bit diffuse I suppose. Gas/Dust ??

If you click on the M13 link down the left the specific page opens with the words:

M13 was discovered by Edmond Halley in 1714, and catalogued by Charles Messier on June 1, 1764.

Tend to assume that all Messier objects were found by Messier, it seems not. CM came along 50 years after EH.

[ollypenrice]

Stars, unike extended objects, become brighter with more aperture so globulars simply do thrive on aperture. Guests and I were observing M13 last night in a 14 inch and stars were very easily resolved to the core at 269x. As others have said, resolving the core won't be possible in 5 inches.

However, a suburban sky is not a dark sky and a 137 Mak is agreeably portable. I'd try a trip out to somewhere darker. It will reveal more of the outlying 'spray' of stars.

Olly

[Mark at Beaufort]

I am hoping to be able to use the 12" Dob tonight and will view M13. However, I also have a Skywatcher Heritage 130P and I will take a look at M13 to see what the view is like and report back. I have seen the Propeller in M13 using my 12" which is one of the advantages using more aperture.

[Mr niall]

40 minutes ago, Mark at Beaufort said:

I am hoping to be able to use the 12" Dob tonight and will view M13. However, I also have a Skywatcher Heritage 130P and I will take a look at M13 to see what the view is like and report back. I have seen the Propeller in M13 using my 12" which is one of the advantages using more aperture.

Wow thanks that would be interesting! Hopefully clear here tonight so will have another go myself!

[Richard Hather]

Hi Nial, I recently upgraded my C6 to a 12" dob and the difference is staggering.

Saying that I did see some beautiful detail on M13 ?

I think a dew shield observing hood and possibly even a LP filter would help bring out more detail on this particular cluster with your scope ?

Clear skies ✨????

[John]

One of my favourite things to do when observing M13 with my larger scopes is to try and pick out the galaxy NGC 6207 which lies around 1 degree NE of M13. The galaxy is mag 11.7 I think and around 30-40 million light years away so approx 1500x further than M13 !. I can get them in the same field with the 12" scope at 75x with the 21mm Ethos eyepiece . The galaxy looks like a very small pale oval of faint light and should be visible in 5" and upwards scopes under a reasonably dark sky.

Here is where to look for those who fancy the challenge (newtonian view at around 50x):

 

[brantuk]

Scroll down a click on this page and you'll get a comparison of M13 through different scope diameters starting at 8" and upwards. It sounds like you did really well seeing what you did with your Mak.

http://www.obsessiontelescopes.com/

[Mr niall]

32 minutes ago, brantuk said:

Scroll down a click on this page and you'll get a comparison of M13 through different scope diameters starting at 8" and upwards. It sounds like you did really well seeing what you did with your Mak.

http://www.obsessiontelescopes.com/

Thats really useful thanks. Yes, I've gone from vaguely disappointed to very pleased about what I saw based on the comments I've received. I think the eyepieces make a difference, I've noticed viewings improved alot after I upgraded them.

[Richard Hather]

1 hour ago, John said:

One of my favourite things to do when observing M13 with my larger scopes is to try and pick out the galaxy NGC 6207 which lies around 1 degree NE of M13. The galaxy is mag 11.7 I think and around 30-40 million light years away so approx 1500x further than M13 !. I can get them in the same field with the 12" scope at 75x with the 21mm Ethos eyepiece . The galaxy looks like a very small pale oval of faint light and should be visible in 5" and upwards scopes under a reasonably dark sky.

Here is where to look for those who fancy the challenge (newtonian view at around 50x):

 

Wow I will have a look next time I'm out never realised there was a galaxy in such close proximity with M13 ?

Thank you ? 

[DAVE AMENDALL]

Here's my humble effort Nial. 6" Bresser Messier Frac Lumicon deep sky filter, Gimp processed Fairly dark sky within dark dome.Not good but that's what it looks like....Dave

[Stu]

As has been said, aperture really counts for globulars. I recall viewing it through my 4" refractor and 8" SCT side by side in Devon, with reasonably dark skies. The difference was clear, resolved stars well into the core in the C8, with the propeller feature visible with careful observation. The 4" showed a nice image still, but it was really the peripheral stars which were resolved clearly.

[nightfisher]

17 hours ago, John said:

This is one of the real strengths of somewhere like SGL I feel. You can post a query and within an hour you have a number of responses which help clarify things and give you some confidence

Before SGL I was relying on what I read in books and magazines and really had little idea on what stuff was supposed to look like and whether my eye and scope were showing me anything as it ought to look 

Joining the forum has had the biggest impact on my enjoyment of the hobby of anything I've done astronomy-wise

(sorry for the slight digression !)

 

John, very well said

 

Okay i was viewing globular clusters with my 127 maksutov on Saturday evening, as the sky got darker the view got better so light pollution plays a big part, taking the scope to a dark site is like gaining a couple of inches more aperture, i was using a BCO 18mm EP and as already said i could make out the central core a dense nucleus with a fair amount of individual stars toward the edge

[Mr niall]

2 hours ago, DAVE AMENDALL said:

Here's my humble effort Nial. 6" Bresser Messier Frac Lumicon deep sky filter, Gimp processed Fairly dark sky within dark dome.Not good but that's what it looks like....Dave

Thanks for sharing that - really useful. That's a bit better than what I was seeing but really useful to see it through a 6 inch for reference