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Orion G3 Camera Anomolies


SonnyE

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Hi. I'm finally getting to a point I'm not too embarrassed to discuss my floundering. My journey into Astroimaging has been fraught with quite a few set-backs, but through sheer perseverance, I think I've beat the odds.

But there is something I seem to be stumped about, and haven't found a way around. To put it politely, I'm a frugal budgeted Astro-imaging beginner. As a retiree, I don't have a squander-able income any longer. So I'm not going to be quick to replace things of considerable cost. Namely cameras. :wink2:

I'd like to try and build a 'Bad Pixel Map' to stop some very irritating problems with my current Deep Space Camera. But not sure how. I think I've read about it somewhere. PHD2 mentions it for guiding cameras.

So I think that might be what I need to pursue, a bad pixel map to filter out the dead spots in my sensor. Open to any ideas or suggestions.

This camera seems to be unstackable in the files it makes. The solid colored (Unmoving) RGB spots are what I would like to eliminate.

And Thank You in advance!

595bea0b8b826_UnfilteredExample.gif.ee90b1dcbc37434f9781f65b98dbf453.gif Unfiltered Example.

595beab556b8e_Filteredexample.gif.2b6eb69bc8fd85f8cd8fc72289f328f4.gif Filtered Example.

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Thanks for the replies. This is G3 #3. Number one arrived dead. When I finally called support to ask how to turn on the fan, the support guy said, "You mean the fan has never run?" No, the fan has never run. They had a replacement to me the next day.

That one always had every other row in the sensor dead. After months and months of trying to figure out what I was doing wrong, I finally sent it in. They sent back a brand new one.

Number 3 G3 has been operational. But as you can see, has quite a problem with its sensor.

And it won't stack. Its files won't stack for me, and they can't be stacked by 3 other far more accomplished friends of mine. Of course it is out of its warranty period...

So I was hoping to find a way around the pixels that are stuck in R, G, or B mode. Short of taking a 4 pound hammer to it. :disgust:

I always look at that guy in the mirror first, wondering what he might be doing wrong. But I'm pretty sure it isn't him this time. The same pixels are the same problem no matter the time frame. But the size gets smaller with shorter exposures.

And to be clear, my images from my DSLR do stack. So that convinced me finally that it might not be that guy in the mirror after all. It wasn't until very recently when I began taking a sequence of images and making a GIF file from them that I could actually demonstrate the problem. It became a standing joke about the 'rainbow sprinkles' in my early posts from this camera.

It sure can't measure up to the hype around it.

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11 hours ago, HunterHarling said:

Those are probably hot/cold pixels. Try stacking them in deep sky stacker with the hot/cold pixel detection box checked and with some dark frames.

OK. Running a batch now.

The settings default to 2 pixels in the cosmetic box. I left it that way.

Should it be other than that?

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6 hours ago, swag72 said:

I would think that darks would go a long way to helping with this issue..... You don't say if you have tried these already?

Hi Sara. Thank You.

Oh Dear, I've tried so many different things, I've lost track.

But I'm still trying. :rolleyes2: If nothing else, I am very persistent.

I'm running a sample right now of 5 Dark, and 10 lights, to see if DSS can do anything with them. No flats or bias as yet. Baby steps still.

They are all untouched, original FIT's files direct from the G3 camera. So we shall see.

I don't try this with all my files as a normal. I usually export as a JPG or TIFF, (mostly as a JPG because they are web friendly) then with some light Post Processing I call them done.

But like I've said, other friends have tried working with the original output fit files and came back shaking their heads. Too noisy is one common sentiment. I could not ever demonstrate them before now with these GIF files made from post processed JPG files.

But it is what I chose when getting my kit in 2015, and what I've tried to work with every since. Just rarely ask for help. But if I don't ask, I don't think I can get around this oddity.

Again, Thank You for any wisdom you might care to share.

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Hi SonnyE

I'm really surprised your friends have been so unhelpful, in not suggesting you try the basic imaging techniques we've suggested.

I'd be interested in seeing a jpg of one of your darks.

Don't lose heart, I'm sure we can sort out your problem.

Michael

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1 hour ago, michael8554 said:

Hi SonnyE

I'm really surprised your friends have been so unhelpful, in not suggesting you try the basic imaging techniques we've suggested.

I'd be interested in seeing a jpg of one of your darks.

Don't lose heart, I'm sure we can sort out your problem.

Michael

Hi Michael.

Well, they've tried, but couldn't figure them out.

Here is a recent one of 25 dark files I collected. Still poking at DSS to do something.

Latest is it comes up with only one of my lights is stackable... It's almost comical.

 

1.jpg.f707a520c077061e362957f30b27e37b.jpg 1. These are the hot pixels I'd love to get rid of. I haven't been able to figure out how.

 

2.jpg.1963d46dfce003f65e47782a9cd2f4e0.jpg 2.

 

3.jpg.029c21a4d5562ced7d93bd09b748b38f.jpg 3.

 

4.jpg.5991f345b7a50fa755943c4fe3dbd186.jpg 4.

 To me, they seem to be very consistent.

Anyway, those are my "Rainbow Sprinkles" I'd like to remove somehow.

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18 hours ago, SonnyE said:

Latest is it comes up with only one of my lights is stackable... It's almost comical.

You need to work out why this is happening. Either it hasn't detected enough stars in common (needs > 8), or it has confused some hot pixels with stars. DSS will tell you how many it has detected. You can also activate the star editor (bottom right side of the image) on an individual image and it will show you what it thinks are stars.

NigelM

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When you register your frames tick on the advanced tab and adjust the star detection threshold until you get around 50 stars detected, or as near as. Make sure the reduce noise using a median filter box is checked. Use an average stacking routine to keep things simple at first just to see if you've got a useable result. I tend to use the autosaved file in GIMP or photoshop and bypass the processsing in DSS, although you can use this to get a quick result if you want. Make sure you use your darks.

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Hi again SonnyE

Your darks look nothing like the darks published by Orion in their description of the Color G3.

Is the cooling working, or is it actually heating the camera?

Send a dark frame to Orion and get a refund or another replacement.

DarkFrameCompare_G3coolerCropped.jpg

 

Michael

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11 hours ago, dph1nm said:

You need to work out why this is happening. Either it hasn't detected enough stars in common (needs > 8), or it has confused some hot pixels with stars. DSS will tell you how many it has detected. You can also activate the star editor (bottom right side of the image) on an individual image and it will show you what it thinks are stars.

NigelM

Sorry for my tardiness Gentlemen. Busy days.

I'm trying to wade through DSS, much of it remains a bit mysterious. But so has everything, and I've gotten this far. So I'll keep trying.

 

Thank You Nigel, I'll work towards that when my night is through. Running a sequence of images currently. So my file card is busy at the mount in its computer > so no current files to work with right now. I need to copy some working files from it tomorrow, instead of retaining them on that micro SD card. Sorry I fumbled in that respect.

Thank You cuivenion, I'll try and find my way there. DSS does seem to work the dark files, so far. It makes a Master dark file, then runs the Light files. But comes to a window stating only one Light file can be stacked. If I keep pecking at this, something is bound to click. But I'm trying to learn my way around in it all. The end results don't at all look like any presentable image. I'm not sure what number of stars detected I have been trying, but apparently not enough.

Hi again Michael, Thank You! I don't know if Orion would want to do anything with the camera as it is beyond their 1 year warranty period now. I don't know which mode the dark file portrayed on their site is taken, probably raw from my experiences with mine. The Orion Camera Studio that runs the G3 has 3 modes to capture in: raw, YCbCr, or RGB. Raw comes out looking like Black & White. YCbCr has nice appearing color. And RGB, which was how I finally got color from it. But I find that the YCbCr is my preferred file capture format. I'm reasonably confident that the cooling is functioning properly. In the program it is showing a cooling effect from ambient, and registers a current increase on my milliamp meter at my battery box feeding the mount. And temperature wise, it is working better than advertised. Generally ~ 12-15 degrees below ambient, when advertised at 10 degrees.

I'll continue trying your suggestions Gentlemen. Again, Thank You for your help with this!

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RAW frames appear monochrome until processed - you will have noticed this when stacking RAWs from your dslr? 

YCbCr is a format for tv displays. Cb and Cr are bandwidth limited - not a good choice for astro. You say this is your preferred format for capture but talk of FITS elsewhere - confusing.

I'm not confident that DSS can ever distinguish stars in images with so many hot pixels.

 Michael

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3 hours ago, michael8554 said:

RAW frames appear monochrome until processed - you will have noticed this when stacking RAWs from your dslr? 

YCbCr is a format for tv displays. Cb and Cr are bandwidth limited - not a good choice for astro. You say this is your preferred format for capture but talk of FITS elsewhere - confusing.

I'm not confident that DSS can ever distinguish stars in images with so many hot pixels.

 Michael

I manage to use DSS with an Altair GPCAM and thats much noiser, this is a 30 second dark at full gain:

dark_15_frames_2017-05-25T23_59_43.thumb.png.d199ddf27e70c508f80adbcf2aaef958.png

Granted its not really meant for DSO imaging but it can be done. The Orion G3 is a lot less noisy. I agree on the file format. The OP should be using RAW Fits fies for astro.

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Well, maybe this can baffle you more...

Page 9 of the manual helps to make it as clear as mud. All I know is what I can see. :wink2:

Here is a link to the manual (In PDF format) explaining the color settings on leaf 9 (Page 5, right side, of the manual)

All files produced by this G3 camera are recorded as .fit format,  whether RAW, YCbCr, or RGB color is chosen. But for me, the YCbCr color choice has worked the best.

Then I do nothing with the FIT files as a rule, and export them as JPG. I've tried exporting them as TIF files, but the JPG are easier overall to work with in my normal programs, Adobe Photoshop Elements 12. JPG format works well because it works fine for the web, which is where 99.99% of my pictures get displayed anyway.

I was just hoping to find a way to deal with the hot pixel problem.

I did send an email to Orion, with example pictures to show exactly what the problem is. But haven't heard back. Maybe next week. Maybe never.

It may not matter now anyway as it appears my mount has decided to go belly up on me again. Lovely!

Thank you gents!

 

 

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Converting your final picture to jpg for use on the net is fine if that's what you're doing but you don't want to stack or process with it, you'll lose data and introduce artefacts that way. You're capturing 16 bit files, jpg is an 8 bit lossy format.

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9 hours ago, cuivenion said:

Converting your final picture to jpg for use on the net is fine if that's what you're doing but you don't want to stack or process with it, you'll lose data and introduce artefacts that way. You're capturing 16 bit files, jpg is an 8 bit lossy format.

Yeah, but I have to start somewhere. And that has worked to this point. It's only very recently I've managed to clean up the images I'm getting. I've taken 10's of thousands of bad to mediocre shots. It should be said that FIT's file format is at best dated. And we are all aware that this sport of Astronomy doesn't progress none to swiftly. Much of the equipment is still in USB2 mode, for heavens sake. It works, but....

I must take leave now. My mount failed last night and I need to see if I can repair it. But I hold small hope of that. Still, I will try. Because I don't give up easily. I just find ways I can eventually work with. Off to troubleshooting a far to troublesome mount... 

Thank You for your help! I'll be back....

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17 hours ago, cuivenion said:

I manage to use DSS with an Altair GPCAM and thats much noiser, this is a 30 second dark at full gain:

That's very good to hear for SonnyE's sake - what star detection figure do you typically use for your images?

Michael

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12 minutes ago, michael8554 said:

That's very good to hear for SonnyE's sake - what star detection figure do you typically use for your images?

Michael

The threshold is different for different images, but I try to get as close to 50 stars detected as possible. My advice to the op would be to capture RAW Fits files and use the correct debayer pattern in DSS. However I've never used an Orion G3 so maybe they're a lot more troublesome than they first appear. I googled for the bayer matrix and this is the result I got:

CMYG, x offset 1, y offset 0, pixel size x is 8.6, y is 8.3

I'm not sure how it would work with the format it's being captured with though.

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1 hour ago, SonnyE said:

Yeah, but I have to start somewhere. And that has worked to this point. It's only very recently I've managed to clean up the images I'm getting. I've taken 10's of thousands of bad to mediocre shots. It should be said that FIT's file format is at best dated. And we are all aware that this sport of Astronomy doesn't progress none to swiftly. Much of the equipment is still in USB2 mode, for heavens sake. It works, but....

I must take leave now. My mount failed last night and I need to see if I can repair it. But I hold small hope of that. Still, I will try. Because I don't give up easily. I just find ways I can eventually work with. Off to troubleshooting a far to troublesome mount... 

Thank You for your help! I'll be back....

Good luck!

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