Saturn last night - disappointed...

[Mr niall]

Managed to catch Saturn last night, I've viewed it in my 70mm refractor before and was impressed but last night was the first time I caught it in my lovely Mak 127 but must admit I was a fraction underwhelmed. Was clearly able to see seperation of the rings from the planet which was nice (but could just about do that with the frac), but was really hoping to see a bit more detail e.g. Cassini division or something - especially as it was in opposition. Are my expectations too high or is saturn a bit troublesome like that? I've pretty much doubled my aperture and have a much higher quality eyepiece so thought the step up would be more impressive?  I only stayed up til 12.30 so it wasn't super high in the sky I guess. Started to lose detail if I pushed above 150x

[Pig]

Hiya, I m not sure why your views were so poor, I had some pretty good views of Saturn at around the same time of the morning as you. Maybe their was some local atmospheric disturbance that affected your seeing as Saturn can take a lot more than 150 x magnification. Saturn will be getting higher as you said so views should get better for you and it is best to not to feel downhearted based on a single viewing.

If I am honest I have found refractors punch way above their weight compared to the maks I have looked through ?  

[Stu]

At 12.30 Saturn was about as high as it gets, only 20 mins before transit. So, it wasn't about altitude. Main culprits are seeing, cooling and collimation. I suspect either seeing or cooling.

I tend to agree with Shaun that fracs tend to be less sensitive and do punch above their weight.

Still, give it another go and make sure you are cooled and collimated, the seeing may be better.

[chiltonstar]

Agreed - I was out looking at Saturn at about the same time (finished at 12:15) with a bigger Mak (180) and my ED80 which should be similar to your 70mm I imagine.

The small frac gives a good view of Cassini, but of course the ring width is artificially broadened by the scope because of the small aperture, and with the high contrast, Cassini is immediately obvious. The Mak view is more subtle - the scope takes time to "acclimate", and because of the higher resolution, the apparent width of the rings is much narrower and it will take higher mag and good seeing to bring them out well although then you are richly rewarded with much more detail than the small frac could give. I run both my mak and ED80  on a SkyTee mount for this reason - a good quick view with the ED80 while the Mak is cooling, and then if conditions allow, detail!

Chris

[ronin]

Not too sure what the answer is as I have yet to have a "great" experience at the eyepiece of an SCT or Mak Best Saturn I saw was through a refractor, think it was a Tal 100RS and an 8mm eyepiece. Need to get mine out there and do some viewing on Saturn soon. Really good with the refractor, but so far never even close through a Cas of any variety or size.

Sky was not good last night really, looked OK initially but it seems there was an almost uniform high layer that just managed to upset things.

[darknight]

yep, I was up till about 1 am last night and the views around 12.30-1 were very nice, in ed 80 and the 200p, I did find earlier on when lower the atmospherics were a bit iffy, so maybe that or cooling

[Stu]

The atmosphere often cools down more after midnight so it can be worth staying up later.

[Mr niall]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

At 12.30 Saturn was about as high as it gets, only 20 mins before transit. So, it wasn't about altitude. Main culprits are seeing, cooling and collimation. I suspect either seeing or cooling.

I tend to agree with Shaun that fracs tend to be less sensitive and do punch above their weight.

Still, give it another go and make sure you are cooled and collimated, the seeing may be better.

Thanks Stu - I think tiredness may have played a part too (and also took a lot of negotiating from the household accountant to get a new scope under the proviso that telescopes were not mentioned again for at least 25 years, so there's a lot of pressure on my little mak to perform!)

was cooled though - put him out to graze on the lawn about 9 o clock.

[Stu]

Just now, Mr niall said:

Thanks Stu - I think tiredness may have played a part too (and also took a lot of negotiating from the household accountant to get a new scope under the proviso that telescopes were not mentioned again for at least 25 years, do there's a lot of pressure on my little mak to perform!)

was cooled though - put him out to graze on the lawn about 9 o clock.

 

How was the collimation? That can make a big difference, particularly on fine features like the Cassini Div.

[chiltonstar]

1 minute ago, Mr niall said:

Thanks Stu - I think tiredness may have played a part too (and also took a lot of negotiating from the household accountant to get a new scope under the proviso that telescopes were not mentioned again for at least 25 years, so there's a lot of pressure on my little mak to perform!)

was cooled though - put him out to graze on the lawn about 9 o clock.

They are lovely scopes - I've had my 127 for 6 years and it is a star wrt doubles and planetary views.

Nb: I've never needed to collimate mine, despite some rough handling and schoolchildren using it - one of the joys of Maks, flat fields, no collimation and sealed tube.

Chris

[Mr niall]

8 minutes ago, Stu said:

 

How was the collimation? That can make a big difference, particularly on fine features like the Cassini Div.

Collimating? Hmmm not too sure how to answer that sorry I've only used a 70mm frac in the past.... I'm aware of it as a concept but how would I know if it were out.

as a side note, I went back to my old faithfulls of Mizar and altor, first view through the mak but did notice they were a little.. I don't know,, sort of fuzzy or smeared or wobbly... nothing major but enough to make me think "that's a bit weird", I'm wondering if I've made a beginners error somewhere or not done something right or whether it's just a symptom of the mak vs the refractor? I don't know... I'm not very good at this! Ha.

[Stu]

10 minutes ago, Mr niall said:

Collimating? Hmmm not too sure how to answer that sorry I've only used a 70mm frac in the past.... I'm aware of it as a concept but how would I know if it were out.

as a side note, I went back to my old faithfulls of Mizar and altor, first view through the mak but did notice they were a little.. I don't know,, sort of fuzzy or smeared or wobbly... nothing major but enough to make me think "that's a bit weird", I'm wondering if I've made a beginners error somewhere or not done something right or whether it's just a symptom of the mak vs the refractor? I don't know... I'm not very good at this! Ha.

Best check is to do a star test once the scope is cooled. Just defocus on a reasonably bright star and everything should remain concentric.

As Chris says, maks hold their collimation well so do not need adjusting often, it's just worth checking the first time you use it so you know whether it is ok or not. I just recently shipped one to Derek and the collimation survived the journey with Parcelforce!

[Geoff Lister]

Last Monday (19th),I was looking at Saturn, through my Skywatcher 127 MCT, from the garden at my holiday bolt-hole in southern France (about 43.5 deg. N), at about 23:00 local time, (GMT+2). It had been a scorching-hot day, and the view was distorted by thermals coming off the neighbours' roofs. The view was impressive, but I too could not make out the Cassini Division, with the planet jumping around at higher magnification.

Geoff

[Littleguy80]

Conditions are definitely a big factor. I spent half hour one evening trying to see the Cassini Division and failing miserably. Came back to it a couple of hours and saw the Cassini Division almost straight away. No change in equipment just everything was a bit cooler, the sky a bit darker and Saturn was a little higher. 

I question my equipment all the time. Is my scope capable? Do I have the right magnification? Which filter should I be using? The answer as to why I can't see something is nearly always atmospheric conditions or simply needing to get under some darker skies.

[Stu]

7 minutes ago, Littleguy80 said:

The answer as to why I can't see something is nearly always atmospheric conditions or simply needing to get under some darker skies.

That is very true!!

[Swithin StCleeve]

I've only seen Saturn once so far this year, and compared to last year - horrible! It was red in colour and swimming like a fish. I put it down to bad seeing and low altitude. It was about two or three weeks ago, (there's a pretty bad photo on my blog https://ineedmyspace.blog/2017/05/26/saturn-makes-an-appearance/).

It's funny though, even when it' terrible seeing, I always get a thrill from seeing it.

[chiltonstar]

There are fleeting good moments, but personally I think the answer is to pack the car with scope and mount and head off to S. Italy or Spain for a break to gain 15 degrees altitude!

Chris

[Stu]

38 minutes ago, chiltonstar said:

There are fleeting good moments, but personally I think the answer is to pack the car with scope and mount and head off to S. Italy or Spain for a break to gain 15 degrees altitude!

Chris

I agree! Wish I could afford it  

[Geoff Lister]

14 hours ago, chiltonstar said:

There are fleeting good moments, but personally I think the answer is to pack the car with scope and mount and head off to S. Italy or Spain for a break to gain 15 degrees altitude!

The Bristol-Bezier flights (£30 return in April) and a bit of local transport, gain me about 8 degrees for planetary, but there is a bit more atmosphere in the way for circumpolar objects. I still got a good view of M81 & M82 last week. My bolt-hole is in one of the main wine producing areas of France, so I like to do my bit, to drain the EU wine lake, whilst observing the heavens.

Geoff

[chiltonstar]

An option Geoff, although I'm not sure I'd get my 180 Mak and SkyTee2 onto a plane.....might work with my little grab 'n go Mak and Porta2 mount I suppose.

I like the observing configuration - ready-cooled scope to one hand and warmed rouge to the other......Ah, bliss!

Chris

[Paz]

I've recently had a look at saturn in a 127mm maksutov and had similar views to the op.

I didn't see the cassini division, but the outer 1/3 of the rings looked dimmer than the inner 2/3.

This was a short session with no time to acclimatise the scope and not much time to really look. I thought seeing was good but i  tested that at higher altitude. light pollution was quite bad and saturn isn't very high even at its highest at the moment which didn't help.

My collimation was straight, it's worth a check but I doubt you will be out of collimation with a maksutov.

P.s. I hope to swap my 127 for a 180 at some point, as I really like the maksutov as a design, but if I could afford it  I would consider a posh refractor!

[BGazing]

Hmmm, back when I had Mak 127 I could see Cassini unless the seeing was poor. I can see it now in 70mm frac, too.

[Stu]

25 minutes ago, BGazing said:

I can see it now in 70mm frac, too.

Sounds like a good frac, which one is it?

Not done much on Saturn this apparition but have struggled to see it with the Tak. Not like when it was at much higher altitudes 10 to 15 years ago, that was wonderful.

[chiltonstar]

Saturn really showed its true colours tonight (16 degrees elevation) with an almost Hubble like view, razor sharp Cassini and inner ring detail. Best mag was x270 and still sharpish at x400 (180 Mak). The seeing was so good for a brief patch I swung the scope across to Zeta Herculis through a hole in the cloud, - cleanly resolved with a blue pinpoint secondary - probably the best I've seen it yet!

Chris

[Geoff Lister]

Too close to Glastonbury for any observing this weekend. The festival weekend and clear skies tend to be mutually exclusive.