Endless IT issues

[kirkster501]

My IT problems are endless, two hours struggling last night after it got dark (very late of course) and I gave up since I was tired (and wasted a fantastic night).

SGP all set up and connected.  Blind solve, plate solve sequence starts, guiding starts.  Then the mount appears to just stop and the target drifts our of field of view and guiding throws a wobbler.

It just can't be a SGP problem or Sitech problem no one else seems to be having so many issues with it that I am.

Wonder if I have a USB hub/cable issue?  I was having camera issues as well until I disconnected it from the USB hub and reconnected it again.  Then the camera played nicely.

I have two focusers, Atik 460, EFW2, mount (MESU), guider all connected to a pier powered Startech USB2 hub with one 3meter connection back to a (freshly reinstalled) mini-PC with Windows 10.  Plenty of oomph on the i3/4Gig PC and PC is doing nothing else but running the usual ASCOm/SGP/SItech.  Wonder if there is just two much going on with only the one cable coming back from that USB hub to the PC?  It used to be fine though.  Never really got going fully with the MESU and focusers due to weather so could have had some issues before the new PC.  However, I was getting fine 5 min subs so I do not think the mount is at fault either.  I may do some visual with it later and see if it can track irrespective of the PC.

I may try moving the mini PC to the pier so I can get more cables directly connected into the PC and then VNC into the pier PC from elsewhere.  See if that results in any improvement.

Appreciate any thoughts , this is driving me potty.

[ollypenrice]

Exasperating. Really sorry.

This isn't uncommon and the more you use IT managed items the more problems you're likely to get. This is why I do so much manually. Our robotic owners can't do this, though. What we have found is that the 'life simplifying' hubs are decidedly unreliable. We've replaced, I think, four of them. If I could avoid any kind of hub I'd do so. One owner has entirely dropped them in favour of separate cables.

Because I passionately want my stuff to work when guests arrive I...

- use handsets rather than PC control of the mount. (It was always hit and miss whether my Tak mount would be recognized by the PC/TheSky6.)

- focus manually.

- have no USB hubs anywhere in the system.

- frame by eye.

- have spare USB leads permanently in the loom. (This has saved the night more than once.)

- have all USB ports and cables labelled so that they always go back into the same ports.

- guide via ST4 cable.

Even so, it sometimes happens that an EFW will not be recognized. We have never found out why. Device manager says all is well. When the worst comes to the worst I drop that camera for a few hours and try again, after which it invariably works. It does need to be hours, though. If anyone can explain this I'd be delighted.

Best of luck with it, Steve.

Olly

[TimB]

Sorry to hear your IT woes. This why I'm totally visual only and no robots operating anything so no batteries.....unless I'm an AI myself as Elon Musk seems to think is probable. Who could prove otherwise? See the recent Dr Who? Hope you get your setup harmonized again soon.

[Davey-T]

I'm using a Startech 7 port USB3 powered hub with 2 cameras, 2 focusers  and weather station plugged in with no problems.

Connected via 3 meter USB3 cable, can't see as USB3 can be making much difference as all the stuff is USB2.

Not using my Atik on this setup but I have had similar issues with it on another setup, sometimes it wont connect and sometimes it claims to be new hardware and wants me to install the driver which gets it going or as Olly says I unplug it for a while plug it in again and all is well.

Can't be much help on the Mesu / Sitech front but lot's of them on here so let's hope someone can help.

Dave

 

[pete_l]

My process for solving these "mysterious" problems is to get back to basics. Simplfy everything.

So I'd suggest taking all the imaging stuff out of the "circuit". Leave it all on the mount - just disconnected. Just have your PC-stick talking to the mount. Give that a good, old, test. Swing the scope around the sky and make sure NOTHING unexpected happens, EVER. Then add the guider. Do the same - ensure that you are getting the guiding images you expect. and that the mount responds as it should.

Then put the camera back in the system. take images of any old thing, it doesn't matter what. In focus, out of focus, it's to ensure that the comms and camera control works OK. And keep building up.

I would add a few observations. PCs - especially their peripherals, and their USB / wifi do not like to be operated close to any sort of limit. Whether that is CPU load, near to the limit of memory installed, under any sort of heavy USB load or streaming too much stuff across wifi (use a cabled connection whenever possible).

Power supplies are another bane of my life. Many that say "2 Amp" or "5 Amp" are really just battery chargers. They do not respond at all well to fluctuations in the power drawn. They also respond particularly badly to fast variations in load - such as when an electric motor kicks in. I recently wasted 2 weeks trying to diagnose and fix a serial comms problem with corrupted data being sent to a mount. The cables, software, PC, Windows, USB-serial they were all fine. The problem turned out to be a flaky power supply that was powering the mount.

 

If none of that works, try Voodoo.

[Skipper Billy]

The only hub I have used that has never flinched is the Startech powered one - http://www.ebuyer.com/661705-startech-com-7-port-superspeed-usb-3-0-hub-desktop-usb-hub-with-st7300usb3b?mkwid=sEig2kIwj_dc&pcrid=51508047059&pkw=&pmt=&gclid=CJCqhtDbxNQCFUOfGwoddLkEwg

The only cables I have used that have also never failed are Lindy gold plated ones - https://www.lindy.co.uk/cables-adapters-c1/usb-c449/5m-cromo-usb-2-0-type-a-to-b-cable-p6863/s7005?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=5m-cromo-usb-2-0-type-a-to-b-cable&utm_campaign=product%2Blisting%2Bads&gclid=COzjsvjbxNQCFUS4GwodSjAOiQ

Neither are cheap !

[gnomus]

I don't know where you were pointing, but it isn't something daft like the mount getting to its meridian limits, is it?.  The mount will indeed just 'stop' dead if it does that (you need to set stuff up in SiTech and SGP if you want meridian flips).  I think it does report 'Meridian Limit Reached' or something like that, but you may not have any sound coming out your mini-PC.  I can't see why a USB connection would cause the Mesu to stop once it is going. 

[steppenwolf]

I'm at the opposite end of the PC control spectrum to Olly but I do understand where he is coming from and he makes a very valid point! However, I have a very complex PC controlled system and for the vast majority of the time, everything works just fine BUT there is not a USB hub in sight apart from the three port hub built into my monitor and that is only used for trivial accessories, namely, the keyboard, mouse and webcam (that I occasionally use to confirm that the Mesu mount has parked to the correct position - which it always does!!).

I have permanently attached the following USB devices:-

Mesu mount
QSI 683
SX M25C (Although sometimes this does cause grief when it takes precedence over the LodeStar for some unfathomable reason!)
SX LodeStar
Velleman 8 port accessory switch
Dome controller
SharpSky autofocuser
Keyboard         }
Mouse              }  monitor 'hub'
Philips Toucam }

The key to the success of this is that I use an old floor mounted desktop PC that has three USB ports on the rear plate, two on the front panel and a four USB port PCI card. This lovely old girl also has an RS232 port into which I plug my AAG CloudWatcher so I don't need a USB to Serial port adaptor. I have seen more people with USB hub issues than just about any other problem and anything you can do to not use a hub would be very high on my priority list!

I appreciate that this doesn't help you resolve your current issue with the mini PC but you could well be on a hiding to nothing if you stick to using this kind of device for your operations, even though they do appear to be an appealing alternative to a larger, better equipped PC.

The best way to try and solve the issue with your existing system is to simplify it - only have connected what you absolutely MUST have connected, start from scratch with just the mount and slowly add critical only components until you get a fail. When you get a fail, start from scratch again but plug the failed component in immediately after the mount and rebuild again - repeating as necessary. Don't ask me why this process can work but sometimes it can resolve the issues!

Good luck.

Note to self - next time I see Olly, I must remember to take some coal ........

[ollypenrice]

2 hours ago, steppenwolf said:

I'm at the opposite end of the PC control spectrum to Olly but I do understand where he is coming from and he makes a very valid point! However, I have a very complex PC controlled system and for the vast majority of the time, everything works just fine BUT there is not a USB hub in sight apart from the three port hub built into my monitor and that is only used for trivial accessories, namely, the keyboard, mouse and webcam (that I occasionally use to confirm that the Mesu mount has parked to the correct position - which is always does!!).

I have permanently attached the following USB devices:-

Mesu mount
QSI 683
SX M25C (Although sometimes this does cause grief when it takes precedence over the LodeStar for some unfathomable reason!)
SX LodeStar
Velleman 8 port accessory switch
Dome controller
SharpSky autofocuser
Keyboard         }
Mouse              }  monitor 'hub'
Philips Toucam }

The key to the success of this is that I use an old floor mounted desktop PC that has three USB ports on the rear plate, two on the front panel and a four USB port PCI card. This lovely old girl also has an RS232 port into which I plug my AAG CloudWatcher so I don't need a USB to Serial port adaptor. I have seen more people with USB hub issues than just about any other problem and anything you can do to not use a hub would be very high on my priority list!

I appreciate that this doesn't help you resolve your current issue with the mini PC but you could well be on a hiding to nothing if you stick to using this kind of device for your operations, even though they do appear to be an appealing alternative to a larger, better equipped PC.

The best way to try and solve the issue with your existing system is to simplify it - only have connected what you absolutely MUST have connected, start from scratch with just the mount and slowly add critical only components until you get a fail. When you get a fail, start from scratch again but plug the failed component in immediately after the mount and rebuild again - repeating as necessary. Don't ask me why this process can work but sometimes it can resolve the issues!

Good luck.

Note to self - next time I see Olly, I must remember to take some coal ........

Steve, you're also at the opposite end of the IT competence spectrum to me! It comes as a relief that you share my dislike of hubs. Given that PCs are cheap I might be inclined to run two of them in order to lose a hub. I run our dual setup in two PCs because, although it could be run in one, I think two make it more robust.

We can run on coal here but wood is more in keeping with our paleolithic comfort zone... And nothing in life works better than a woodburning stove.

lly

[steppenwolf]

2 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

We can run on coal here but wood is more in keeping with our paleolithic comfort zone... And nothing in life works better than a woodburning stove.

You know what, I often struggle to light those darned things - they don't even come with a remote..........

[Davey-T]

15 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

 

We can run on coal here but wood is more in keeping with our paleolithic comfort zone... And nothing in life works better than a woodburning stove.

lly

Do you have to log on to it 

Dave

[StuartJPP]

I am not as elaborate as most on here as I originally bought a netbook with 3 USB ports, which is all I needed.

However subsequently I have installed a StarTech 4 port USB 2 hub and now use only one USB port on the netbook...this was in an effort to reduce cable clutter.

All my USB cables have been trimmed to the correct length, I soldered on new "A" type connectors that plug into the hub with the other end ("B" or Mini "B", straight or right-angled) remaining intact from the original cable.

Like Olly and others, all the cables are labelled and used in the same ports.

WiFi is turned off and I am very selective of updates, not only Windows updates but any other application as well.

I do have spare cables just in case.

Once you get it working, leave it alone. The temptation to tinker is immense but I try to refrain (except during peak summer) and leave it well alone during the imaging season.

[RichLD]

Hi Steve, perhaps a silly question but when was the last time your rig was fully operational? I appreciate you may have added more than one new piece of kit in one go but thinking back to a time when everything worked might help identify the 'new' problem.

[wxsatuser]

Kept mine as simple as possible

One USB port for the mount and one for the camera and one for Xbox controller, stand alone guider so no problem there.
Focusing is done manually with a cheap Sky Watcher auto focuser, all on one Samsung i3 laptop.

Never used a USB hub but thats not to say they don't work, obviously some have them working ok.

[kirkster501]

Thankyou all for your comments.  I disconnected everything and rerouted and put everything back.  Seems a bit more stable now but a couple of niggly issues still.

Stuart, how did did you "trim"the USB cables to a ideal length please?  I am pretty nifty with the soldering iron....

I have a tracking drop out issue now though...   I will start a new thread about that.

[kirkster501]

22 hours ago, steppenwolf said:

I'm at the opposite end of the PC control spectrum to Olly but I do understand where he is coming from and he makes a very valid point! However, I have a very complex PC controlled system and for the vast majority of the time, everything works just fine BUT there is not a USB hub in sight apart from the three port hub built into my monitor and that is only used for trivial accessories, namely, the keyboard, mouse and webcam (that I occasionally use to confirm that the Mesu mount has parked to the correct position - which it always does!!).

I have permanently attached the following USB devices:-

Mesu mount
QSI 683
SX M25C (Although sometimes this does cause grief when it takes precedence over the LodeStar for some unfathomable reason!)
SX LodeStar
Velleman 8 port accessory switch
Dome controller
SharpSky autofocuser
Keyboard         }
Mouse              }  monitor 'hub'
Philips Toucam }

The key to the success of this is that I use an old floor mounted desktop PC that has three USB ports on the rear plate, two on the front panel and a four USB port PCI card. This lovely old girl also has an RS232 port into which I plug my AAG CloudWatcher so I don't need a USB to Serial port adaptor. I have seen more people with USB hub issues than just about any other problem and anything you can do to not use a hub would be very high on my priority list!

I appreciate that this doesn't help you resolve your current issue with the mini PC but you could well be on a hiding to nothing if you stick to using this kind of device for your operations, even though they do appear to be an appealing alternative to a larger, better equipped PC.

The best way to try and solve the issue with your existing system is to simplify it - only have connected what you absolutely MUST have connected, start from scratch with just the mount and slowly add critical only components until you get a fail. When you get a fail, start from scratch again but plug the failed component in immediately after the mount and rebuild again - repeating as necessary. Don't ask me why this process can work but sometimes it can resolve the issues!

Good luck.

Note to self - next time I see Olly, I must remember to take some coal ........

Steve, I think I am going to do something similar.  Keep the mini PC as the machine to "view" what is going on with the "control" PC which will be a floor mounted one wt seven USB ports on it.  Can Ethernet the whole thing onto my network then VNC into it and control everything remotely.

[iapa]

I used to have a 10 port USB 2 hub on the dovetail connecting everything to that, then single cable back to PC in the house. Most common problem was dropouts on the hub.

I then went to a one port per device using a Mac mini that I had (5 x USB ports). That was OK, but didn't relish having the Mac outdoors.

My set up currently is a Win10 Pro stick PC (1 x USB 2, 1 x USB 3) tied to dovetail, together with a powered 4 port USB 3 hub to the USB 2 port (pole master, guide camera, mount controller and focus motor). Imaging Camera goes to USB 3 port. Filter wheel goes on the camera's USB 2 hub. The hub has an integrated 6" cable to the stick PC.

I bought a variety of lengths of cables, and use the shortest possible for each device. Longest cable is 1m USB 3 to the imaging camera.

While setting up any of the about setups, one constant issue was not plugging devices into the same port each time - device drivers need to be reloaded/configured when Windows detects device on a different port. Now everything is always to the same port.

Once imaging, the only traffic on the USB 2 port is from the guide camera and control signals for guiding - well within USB 2 capabilities.

Finally, WiFi connection to the stick using RDP from mobile, tablet or desktop as required.

I plan on replicating this idea for my other mount.

[RichLD]

Slightly off topic but thought this might prove useful:

On the subject of USB hubs, it's worth remembering that on many laptops side by side or stacked usb ports are using the same internal hub - there's no advantage in running 2 separate cables as the bandwidth available is the same as if using a good, powered external hub and one cable.

Also,  the 7 and 10 port hubs that are available are essentially 4 port hubs daisy chained together.

Finally, it's worth noting that there is no advantage in using a usb 3.0 hub to connect multiple usb 2.0 devices. It may be tempting to think that the full bandwidth of usb 3.0 to the host could be used, enabling all of your usb 2.0 devices to run at full speed. This is alas not the case - a usb 3.0 hub has a separate usb 2.0 chip built in that the relevant devices get routed to.

HTH and I hope you get your issues sorted soon Steve ?

[steppenwolf]

3 hours ago, kirkster501 said:

Steve, I think I am going to do something similar.  Keep the mini PC as the machine to "view" what is going on with the "control" PC which will be a floor mounted one wt seven USB ports on it.  Can Ethernet the whole thing onto my network then VNC into it and control everything remotely.

This would seem a good solution, Steve.

[kirkster501]

I've installed the mount PC with 10 USB ports.  Redid the entire loom of cables and all works and meridian flips in the day time on a dummy star alignment.  Got the MESU overpole at 7 degrees like Steve (gnomus) and without pier crash.  All ready to try again next clear night.

[gnomus]

If it works through the day, I see no reason why it should not work at night.  Good luck, nonetheless.  It's about time we saw some pictures 

[Uranium235]

Im with Olly and Mike on this one, keeping the setup as simple as possible (less to go wrong). The only time I use any method of PC control is when I use Stellarium to find a target which isnt in the handset. Sure, it would be nice to have SGP to automatically create mosaics - but with just 1gb of memory in the netbook (lol.... "just".. I remember when 512k was a bottomless pit!) I try not to have too much running.

However, I hope you get it sorted.... and once its working - dont touch it!! 

 

[ollypenrice]

Looks promising.

Olly

[kirkster501]

13 hours ago, gnomus said:

If it works through the day, I see no reason why it should not work at night.  Good luck, nonetheless.  It's about time we saw some pictures 

Tell me about it!

[kirkster501]

The cables all set up such that when the scope peer flips nothing will snag.  I had to buy 3m USB cables instead of the the 2m ones I had bought.  Surprising how much cable is required by the time you have neatly routed them and left enough slack for the mount to move freely.  2m is not enough.

In this picture I have the USB cables for the scope cameras/filter wheels in black spiral cable tidy and the focusers in white cable-tidy.  I am awaiting some Silver 30mm spiral cable tidy to wrap those bundles in turn into one single loom which will then make this much neater.  The spiral cable tidy costs a few quid off the bay.  Once that is sorted and I can tidy the cables at the back of the PC in this picture

I mounted the PC as close to the scopes/mount/cameras as possible so as to keep the cables shorter.  I drilled an hole in the side of the PC and bolted it through a hole that was already there in the MESU mounting plate.  This HP 8300 PC does not have a monitor,, just a 10/100/1000 network connection and I VNC connect into that from another PC in the obs or from the house as I Flood wired the observatory when I built it with Cat5E computer network cable.   USB hubs now out of the equation, shorter quality USB cables in use and cables will not snag when a peer flip is initiated half way through the slew.  SGP does not like it and freezes when the MESU aborts a slew due to a snagging cable.

So, awaiting clear night to get this tested and also need to work on my autofocusers.  WHEN I have got all that working I will buy the QSI camera. Got more than enough variables in the equation at the moment.