Epsilon Lyrae - what will I need to see it?

[JOC]

I have often heard about this so called 'double double' Google has just told me that it is called Epsilon Lyrae.  I assume that this should be findable and hopefully splittable for me with my kit, what I was wondering is what sort of EP will I need to get both doubles in the single view - it's difficult as a beginner to sometimes get a feel for the sort of size of object I'm looking for.  Am I after something of a similar sort of size to Mizar - which I've managed to split with my 10mm.    Also to use the Goto does it have a number from one of the popular lists - my Google link didn't mention one?  The Goto has a list of doubles which I'll check through, but sometimes the names of the stars are slightly different and there have been things I've not found.  If not then I guess I find Vega - which I know it has by name and move from there.  Thank you!

[Tigaroo]

'Turn Left at Orion' suggests you can split the double in the finder scope but need highest power to split the double doubles !  Might give that a try ! 

[paul mc c]

Have split it with a 60mm frac.

[John]

It's just a little to the left of Vega - looks like a pair of stars in an optical finder.

I can split the 2 pairs pretty easily with my 4" refractors at around 100x and have done it with smaller apertures in the past.

 

[Knighty2112]

I normally need at minimum to split the double double a 7mm EP, but most of my scopes I use to view it are above f8 or above above, so for shorter focal lengths you might need to Barlow or using higher than this. You normally need good seeing to see the double double well. 

[ronin]

Should be reasonably easy. As above it is find Vega, then a bit left and slightly above there is a "star", that is the culprit. You may get 2 stars in binoculars - cannot recall exactly, would expect most scopes to be able to resolve into 4. Have seen all 4 just cannot recall the scope in use, nor eyepiece.

Mizar in the days of the Persian army was a test of eyesight. If you could see 2 you were in otherwise you failed the eyesight test. Last year I asked a 6 year old how many stars he saw, the reply was "2, Why?" Kids like finding they can see 2 and you cannot. Every set of binoculars I have will split it into 2, and under dark skies I can see 2 by by my shortsighted, astigmatic eyeballs with glasses. If you need a 200P and 10mm then doesn't sound right.

If your goto has HIP numbers try 91919 for the DD, would expect the TV 11 or the TV 8 to show 4  easily

[Stu]

Lovely target. Seems to be easier at lower power in refractors, but very doable in your scope. Make sure it is well cooled and collimate and you should have any trouble.

Can't really miss it near Vega, but here are some additional references which might help your Goto. The STF one might be in there.

Try at x150 which should be easy enough, then lower the mag and see how far you can go.

[cloudsweeper]

Saw the Double Double last night - get Vega, then it's easy.  I was using the ST120 frac, so mags were lower than with the 8SE, but I split the stars with a 4mm Nirvana which gave x150, and what a lovely and interesting sight it is!

Doug.

[Ouroboros]

I see you have 200P Skyliner 

1 hour ago, JOC said:

I have often heard about this so called 'double double' Google has just told me that it is called Epsilon Lyrae.  I assume that this should be findable and hopefully splittable for me with my kit, what I was wondering is what sort of EP will I need to get both doubles in the single view - it's difficult as a beginner to sometimes get a feel for the sort of size of object I'm looking for.  Am I after something of a similar sort of size to Mizar - which I've managed to split with my 10mm.    Also to use the Goto does it have a number from one of the popular lists - my Google link didn't mention one?  The Goto has a list of doubles which I'll check through, but sometimes the names of the stars are slightly different and there have been things I've not found.  If not then I guess I find Vega - which I know it has by name and move from there.  Thank you!

I see you have a Skyliner 200P, which I'm guessing is like my SW 200P. I can certainly split the double doubles with my 10mm eyepiece.  I sort of have to get my eye in for a bit before they're obvious. Good seeing helps.  

[Galen Gilmore]

My 4.5" newt easily split it at 200x mag, couldn't quite do it at half of that. But a larger aperture or a refractor could split it at 100x.

[JOC]

Thanks all, esp. Stu for all the directions - what would I do without Stu - the clouds and wind (the wind seems to complicate things - everything moves) are doing the dirty on me at the moment, but next time I'm out I'm def. going to give this a try - esp. as it's in the East earlier in the evening and the East is a good direction for me.  I am pretty sure at the least I can find Vega, but with the number references if I can get the Goto set-up hopefully one of those number sets will be in the system which should help even more.  :-)

[wookie1965]

I split it last night in my Tal 100rs (4") with 12.4mm 80x mag. 

[John]

I've just split it at the same mag as Wookie (above) with the Tak 100. TAL matches Tak

[Tigaroo]

Just popped out with my 8x42's to watch ISS go over, they split the double easily 

[Stu]

3 minutes ago, Tigaroo said:

Just popped out with my 8x42's to watch ISS go over, they split the double easily 

Have you managed the double split on a scope Tigaroo?

The other night with the Tak and TEC at high power the splits were huge (well, comparatively anyway  )

[Dave In Vermont]

My first time, at age 12, to split the double-double was with a 3" F/15 Refractor - at 180X as I wasn't messing around!

Needless to say, the split was even and quite wide. I was very satisfied with it, too. I still have my photographic-memory of how it looked.

And I was 'hooked' on double-stars for keeps,

Dave

[chiltonstar]

It's a target you always come back to, isn't it? Prettier in my smaller refractors, but split more in my 180 Mak because of the larger aperture.

I first saw the DD through a 6" newt I was babysitting for six months while its owner was back in the US for work - it left a permanent sense of achievement, even if the view wasn't that good!

Chris

[Tigaroo]

9 hours ago, Stu said:

Have you managed the double split on a scope Tigaroo?

The other night with the Tak and TEC at high power the splits were huge (well, comparatively anyway  )

Haven't even tried with a scope yet ! Only read about it yesterday. Had a quick look through my 20x70's and the split was huge ! So can't wait to get my telescope on it 

[Stu]

5 minutes ago, Tigaroo said:

Haven't even tried with a scope yet ! Only read about it yesterday. Had a quick look through my 20x70's and the split was huge ! So can't wait to get my telescope on it 

It's a great target, nice easy binocular double and then each one is a tight double of somewhere around 2.5" if I remember correctly. They are also orientated at approx 90 degrees to each other which adds to the interest.

Another one to look at closeby is one that Nick (Cotterless45) brought to my attention some time ago. The references to look for are STF 2470 and 2474. Sometimes called the Double Double's Double, it S similar but much easier, and the pairings are parallel to each other. A very nice target anyway, and relatively easy to find.

[JOC]

When I'm out I take my mobile for Stellarium, but it is so useful to be able to access these SGL threads when I'm actually about to look for the objects - you are all brilliant with all these instructions and encouragement.  In fact I think its really neat that in the last 48 hrs several of you appear to have taken the trouble to review the stars personally so that we have a first hand account of what to look for - I shall def. report back when I've found them - many thanks.  

[Racey]

14 hours ago, Tigaroo said:

Just popped out with my 8x42's to watch ISS go over, they split the double easily 

Binoculars and finder scopes will show Double Double as 2 stars as you saw. You will need at least 80x to then split those again. I presume you're aware Double Double is actually 4 stars at 80x or greater..?

Give it a go if you haven't. Then you and @JOC should consider moving on to split Albireo, Polaris, Castor if you haven't already. And once you've done those move on to Izar and Sirus...

@Mrs Racey and I still haven't cracked Sirus. But we've managed the others...

[JOC]

1 hour ago, Racey said:

Albireo, Polaris, Castor if you haven't already. And once you've done those move on to Izar and Sirus...

Castor was my first and split lovely with my 10mm, I managed Polaris a few weeks ago, and if the Goto was to be believed I think I was on Albireo the other night as there were two stars that did not look the same colour, but the colours and stars did not seem pronounced in the sky so it may not have been correct.  Izar I didn't know about and Sirius has been too twinkly and low in sky to stand much chance when we say it during the winter - in fact my son christianed it the 'monster raving party star' as it was so flashy through the atmosphere.

[Racey]

@JOC 

Good going. That was definitely Albireo then... Good luck with Izar and splitting the Double Double into 4...

[Tigaroo]

1 hour ago, Racey said:

Binoculars and finder scopes will show Double Double as 2 stars as you saw. You will need at least 80x to then split those again. I presume you're aware Double Double is actually 4 stars at 80x or greater..?

Give it a go if you haven't. Then you and @JOC should consider moving on to split Albireo, Polaris, Castor if you haven't already. And once you've done those move on to Izar and Sirus...

@Mrs Racey and I still haven't cracked Sirus. But we've managed the others...

Oh yes , I was aware they are double doubles , just didn't get my scope out last night ?! I haven't really even got started on splitting doubles before , new game to me , and I'm really enjoying it! Despite having been observing for years it's been moon and planets mostly, plus the odd really easy dso , but since getting my Dob a couple of years ago I'm really getting into deep sky! Recently joining an Astro club has encouraged me, but just as Joc said , being on the forum is a massive help in getting tips and hints on what's out there! 

[Mr Spock]

I've attached a few charts to make finding things easier. Charts include constellation labels and magnitudes.

I've also put a label on Albireo as it's always a favourite double.

Wide field showing where ε Lyr is in relation to Vega and surrounding constellations.

A closer view showing ε Lyr in relation to Vega and the top of Lyra.

And a close up of ε Lyr for those who like to challenge their scopes, complete with magnitudes down to 16.50. Thie field in and around ε Lyr is great for testing the limiting magnitude of your scope.