Decent scope for AP but still decent for visuals?

[Masterkui]

Hi there,

I am going to ask something I bet many people have already asked, but after doing my research by reading through various forums, reading reviews, speaking to telescope shops and watching youtube videos I am afraid I am still no closer to making a decision just got a headache for my efforts with information overload. 

I currently own a 8inch Dobsonian which I purchased around 10 years ago, its good for visuals but is heavy and cumbersome to move around and from my understanding not a good choice for astrophotography. 

I own a decent DSLR (Canon 80D) and for ages have been mulling over trying AP as some of the pics I have seen online mesmerise me. When I first started looking around I thought the skywatcher 200PDS would be ideal but the more I read the more put off I am regarding AP and newtonions.  Yes they are cheaper but when you consider buying coma correctors (?) they are not so much cheaper.  then of course there is there size and weight making portability more difficult.  I have also read that the short focal lengths make planetary viewing not ideal though I am unsure how true this is.

As a result I started looking at 80ED's as this seems to be the most recommended across the board for AP beginners however I am concerned about normal visuals will there be a drastic reduction in visuals compared to my 8inch Dob?  And will I out grow it within a few years?  I can't afford to keep on buying telescopes. I would love to keep my Dob, but I fear in order to able to afford something else I will have to sell it.  I thought it would then be logical to look at 100mm, 120mm and 150mm refractors but my research suggested despite the bigger lens these will be more difficult for AP beginners.  Am I also right in saying the Apochromatic(?)  fracs are more suited for AP or not necessarily so?

With regards to mounts (which I know is essential) I would more than likely go with a HEQ5 as I doubt I could afford a NEQ6 or higher. 

I have looked at the following scopes and would really appreciate your opinions:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/pro-series/skywatcher-evostar-80ed-ds-pro-outfit.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/pro-series/skywatcher-evostar-120ed-ds-pro-outfit.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/pro-series/skywatcher-evostar-100ed-ds-pro-outfit.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/pro-series/skywatcher-quattro-f4-imaging-newtonian.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/explore-scientific-telescopes/explore-scientific-ed-apo-80mm-f6-essential-refractor-telescope-with-hex-focus.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/explore-scientific-telescopes/explore-scientific-ed-apo-102mm-f7-essential-refractor-telescope-with-hex-focus.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-200p-ds-ota.html

Thank you in advance  :-)

 

  

 

[scitmon]

I'm very much an Astrophotography newbie like yourself so I'm sure more experienced people may give you better advice, but what I would say is that Astrophotography is certainly not a cheap hobbie to get into.  Sounds like you are working on a budget... have you considered keeping the 8inch and buying an equatorial mount for it?  I'm very happy with my 80ed ds-pro, but I've had no basis for comparison yet.  

[newbie alert]

Using a scope with a long focal length is fine for the smaller targets,but for the larger ones unless you want to do mosaics as they won't fit in the fov..an 80ed is a great scope for many dso' s and also great on the moon with a nice sharp image..ive not tried it with Jupiter Saturn etc as yet.Apo's are a step up in quality of the lenses..dublets with 2 lenses,triplets with 3 and quads with 4..are made to reduce chromatic aberration on bright subjects as the lenses are set to reduce the light splatter in the rgb spectrum..sorry to say you cant unfortunately have a do all scope as they have their own benefits in different subjects..you would be better off looking through a 80mm frac first but for all dos imaging the mount is far more important than the scope..

[Masterkui]

53 minutes ago, scitmon said:

I'm very much an Astrophotography newbie like yourself so I'm sure more experienced people may give you better advice, but what I would say is that Astrophotography is certainly not a cheap hobbie to get into.  Sounds like you are working on a budget... have you considered keeping the 8inch and buying an equatorial mount for it?  I'm very happy with my 80ed ds-pro, but I've had no basis for comparison yet.  

Hi Scitmon, i appreciate your thoughts, mounting my Dob on an eq mount was the first thing i thought about as well, but from what I have been told, it is possible but with modifications, which would require expertise, time and a bit of cash.  I can make the time, but sadly i lack the expertise/guts to do it and after some calculating i realised the money i would need to do it wouldn't be far off from buying a new scope.

Do you have any pictures posted online for forum users to view? would be interested to see how images come out.  Also do you use a CCD or DSLR?

[Masterkui]

1 hour ago, newbie alert said:

Using a scope with a long focal length is fine for the smaller targets,but for the larger ones unless you want to do mosaics as they won't fit in the fov..an 80ed is a great scope for many dso' s and also great on the moon with a nice sharp image..ive not tried it with Jupiter Saturn etc as yet.Apo's are a step up in quality of the lenses..dublets with 2 lenses,triplets with 3 and quads with 4..are made to reduce chromatic aberration on bright subjects as the lenses are set to reduce the light splatter in the rgb spectrum..sorry to say you cant unfortunately have a do all scope as they have their own benefits in different subjects..you would be better off looking through a 80mm frac first but for all dos imaging the mount is far more important than the scope..

Hi Newbie Alert,

thanks also for your thoughts, do you believe a doublet would be sufficient or is the extra cost for a triplet really worth the extra money for our UK skies? quads are unfortunately beyond my reach at the moment.  Would you also recommend the 80ed before the 100 ed's and 120eds?  are they really that much more hassle or difficult to get results from?   

[newbie alert]

I can only comment on what I use..i was looking to getting an apo.. and looked and researched as much as I could but a friend suggested I get a ed first as there's a lot to learn in imaging ...1 popped up second hand and yes suits what I want to do with it..I Also use a sct and seems to balance what I'm looking to do..smaller targets and planets for the sct and the 80mm frac for the bigger targets ..

May I add that I've never had a chance to look through a 100-120mm frac ..look up astromany tools on the first light optics page and you can choose your target,scope and camera and see what fov you will get..

Where abouts are you?

[bobro]

Looks like you have too many variables going around - so best to simplify things. here are some suggestions:

1) Don't mix visual and AP - keep them separate as no telescope will be ideal for both.

2) For visual you have a Dob - keep it. It won't be worth much if you sell it and you are familiar with it.

3) For AP decide between Moon, planets and DSOs. Again, a single scope/method won't do all.

3a) For Moon - try a webcam/guidecam on the Dob. A great entry into AP and the guidecam can be used for telescope guiding at a later date if required. Otherwise ignore the Moon unless you have a particular interest. 

3b) For planets - there aren't a lot of planets in the sky for AP. A scope with a long focal length is required. I suggest to ignore this option unless it is a particular interest.

3c) For DSOs - there are many interesting DSOs. DSO imaging requires long exposures, a solid mount and guiding for the best results. The equipment you have suggested seems to be from a reasonable budget, so here goes - 

Purchase an EQ5 (or perhaps HEQ5) mount. Look at the weight - you mentioned portability as a consideration. For imaging a SynScan version is required.

For DSO imaging (especially as a beginner) it is good to have a scope with a short focal length to make guiding easier. A SkyWatcher 130PDS is an excellent scope to start imaging with and you will learn a lot. Yes a coma corrector will help but can be used with future scopes. Look at the great images on this forum others have made with the 130PDS.

Once you are familiar with the mount/scope and have made some short exposure images, purchase a guide camera/scope and start guiding for longer exposures and capture of many more DSOs.

4) Having made your first forays into imaging, you may find your interests change. In that case you have a good stable mount and can very easily sell the 130PDS if you wish to purchase a different scope for e.g. planetary work.

Just suggestions - hope you find something useful there. 

[Moonshane]

Buy used. That way if it proves unsuited or you change your mind you can sell again for pretty much no loss.

Despite being a keen general photographer I am not an imager but have six scopes for various reasons. OK so over the top and maybe I'd be happy with three but never one. Personally I have never been satisfied with anything below 100mm for visual.

You can get fairly acceptable images with cheapish equipment but in truth you need to invest wisely to do so and accept there will be a lot of DIY solutions/tweaking. This can often run to more than the 'proper' kit in the first place, especially if you aspire to match the standards set by those with such kit. Buy quality, cry once.

 

[Masterkui]

3 hours ago, newbie alert said:

I can only comment on what I use..i was looking to getting an apo.. and looked and researched as much as I could but a friend suggested I get a ed first as there's a lot to learn in imaging ...1 popped up second hand and yes suits what I want to do with it..I Also use a sct and seems to balance what I'm looking to do..smaller targets and planets for the sct and the 80mm frac for the bigger targets ..

May I add that I've never had a chance to look through a 100-120mm frac ..look up astromany tools on the first light optics page and you can choose your target,scope and camera and see what fov you will get..

Where abouts are you?

That astronomy tool was really useful to get a perspective on the different scopes and also eyepieces.  I am based in hertfordshire, north of the m25

[Masterkui]

5 minutes ago, Moonshane said:

Buy used. That way if it proves unsuited or you change your mind you can sell again for pretty much no loss.

Despite being a keen general photographer I am not an imager but have six scopes for various reasons. OK so over the top and maybe I'd be happy with three but never one.

You can get fairly acceptable images with cheapish equipment but in truth you need to invest wisely to do so and accept there will be a lot of DIY solutions/tweaking. This can often run to more than the 'proper' kit in the first place, especially if you aspire to match the standards set by those with such kit. Buy quality, cry once.

 

 

13 minutes ago, bobro said:

Looks like you have too many variables going around - so best to simplify things. here are some suggestions:

1) Don't mix visual and AP - keep them separate as no telescope will be ideal for both.

2) For visual you have a Dob - keep it. It won't be worth much if you sell it and you are familiar with it.

3) For AP decide between Moon, planets and DSOs. Again, a single scope/method won't do all.

3a) For Moon - try a webcam/guidecam on the Dob. A great entry into AP and the guidecam can be used for telescope guiding at a later date if required. Otherwise ignore the Moon unless you have a particular interest. 

3b) For planets - there aren't a lot of planets in the sky for AP. A scope with a long focal length is required. I suggest to ignore this option unless it is a particular interest.

3c) For DSOs - there are many interesting DSOs. DSO imaging requires long exposures, a solid mount and guiding for the best results. The equipment you have suggested seems to be from a reasonable budget, so here goes - 

Purchase an EQ5 (or perhaps HEQ5) mount. Look at the weight - you mentioned portability as a consideration. For imaging a SynScan version is required.

For DSO imaging (especially as a beginner) it is good to have a scope with a short focal length to make guiding easier. A SkyWatcher 130PDS is an excellent scope to start imaging with and you will learn a lot. Yes a coma corrector will help but can be used with future scopes. Look at the great images on this forum others have made with the 130PDS.

Once you are familiar with the mount/scope and have made some short exposure images, purchase a guide camera/scope and start guiding for longer exposures and capture of many more DSOs.

4) Having made your first forays into imaging, you may find your interests change. In that case you have a good stable mount and can very easily sell the 130PDS if you wish to purchase a different scope for e.g. planetary work.

Just suggestions - hope you find something useful there. 

Hi Bobro, DSO is something that appeals the most, your post has made me appreciate that what i am looking for, something that does everything, doesn't actually exist.  i will look further into the 130 pds. 

I appreciate the advice

5 minutes ago, Moonshane said:

Buy used. That way if it proves unsuited or you change your mind you can sell again for pretty much no loss.

Despite being a keen general photographer I am not an imager but have six scopes for various reasons. OK so over the top and maybe I'd be happy with three but never one.

You can get fairly acceptable images with cheapish equipment but in truth you need to invest wisely to do so and accept there will be a lot of DIY solutions/tweaking. This can often run to more than the 'proper' kit in the first place, especially if you aspire to match the standards set by those with such kit. Buy quality, cry once.

 

I have been looking around actually for used scopes and mounts, not seen any great bargains so far but definitely worth an eye out.  I think something that i appreciate more now is that having an all in one scope is not possible.  Not sure my wife would allow me 6 scopes but as a long term investment in a hobby 3 scopes i could possibly get away with :-)

 

[Moonshane]

Usually the best you should hope for is a fair price.  Bargains are often bargains for all the wrong reasons.  As long as you can afford it don't think about what it costs you but rather what it gives you.

[JonC]

I was in the same situation as the OP, I ended up getting a 2nd hand SW 100ED as a 75% visual / 25% AP scope. My reasoning was its OK at visual and AP, if I decide to specialise later on it will still be usable for the other use and will have retained its value. My original intention was 100% AP (hence a 130PDS), but have also found visual extremely enjoyable so got the 100ED. Mount wide I have a HEQ5, also 2nd hand.

 

HEQ5 PRO £450 (private)

130PDS £120 (shop)

100ED £385(shop)

 

I am currently learning AP, and trying out different techniques, software , etc. I think the 100ED is a good initial scope to learn with, its going to take a few years for me to get the most out of it. The 100Ed might not be brilliant at any one thing, but its good enough to get going with, and by the time I have mastered it I will have the knowledge of what to do next. 

[Masterkui]

4 minutes ago, Moonshane said:

Usually the best you should hope for is a fair price.  Bargains are often bargains for all the wrong reasons.  As long as you can afford it don't think about what it costs you but rather what it gives you.

I know what you mean, i just meant the prices of used ones i have seen, are not too far off from some good offers from online retailers.  

1 minute ago, JonC said:

I was in the same situation as the OP, I ended up getting a 2nd hand SW 100ED as a 75% visual / 25% AP scope. My reasoning was its OK at visual and AP, if I decide to specialise later on it will still be usable for the other use and will have retained its value. My original intention was 100% AP (hence a 130PDS), but have also found visual extremely enjoyable so got the 100ED. Mount wide I have a HEQ5, also 2nd hand.

 

HEQ5 PRO £450 (private)

130PDS £150 (shop)

100ED £385(shop)

 

I am currently learning AP, and trying out different techniques, software , etc. I think the 100ED is a good initial scope to learn with, its going to take a few years for me to get the most out of it. The 100Ed might not be brilliant at any one thing, but its good enough to get going with, and by the time I have mastered it I will have the knowledge of what to do next. 

How are you finding the 130pds? this was something bobro recommended as well.  

[ronin]

If the title is adheared to then the only one I would consider is the ES 102, but likley up in the most expensive area. 102mm is not bad for visual and being a triplet should be good for AP.

However you then need a tripod suitable forAP and if 102 then I am not sure the HEQ5 is best and the next is the EQ6, especially with the option of future expansion. Which for AP will happen.

You could find it easier as mentioned previously to seperate AP and visual, in effect keep the present scope for visual and put together a possible smaller AP rig. Keeping the 2 seperate is often a not too bad idea. Smaller is questionable however as it depends on the depth of AP you want to do. The ES 80 on an EQ5 should be OK but it will have a limit at around 60 second exposures without guiding and if you add guiding then you are likely going to need the HEQ5.

There is a thread about imaging with the 130PDS (I think) may be worth looking through.

[JonC]

8 hours ago, Masterkui said:

I know what you mean, i just meant the prices of used ones i have seen, are not too far off from some good offers from online retailers.  

How are you finding the 130pds? this was something bobro recommended as well.  

The 130PDS is a dedicated AP scope, so currently beyond my abilities to get the most from it, as a visual scope is a big compromise. Its been much easier trying different techniques with the 100ED, without spending a fortune on additional kit. Currently experimenting with webcams for planetary, and have a 2nd hand dslr to try after that. To be honest getting the mount and software sorted is much more difficult than the optical side of things.

[Chris]

16 hours ago, Masterkui said:

the more I read the more put off I am regarding AP and newtonions.  Yes they are cheaper but when you consider buying coma correctors

No difference between Newtonian's and refractors in this respect, i.e. Newt's benefit from Coma corrector's (CC) as do refractors from field flatteners. Both cost about the same price.

 

As for which scope, I'll give a 'on a budget answer' and a 'money no object' answer' :

on a budget and considering your needs I'd go for a Skywatcher 150pds Newtonian, or the even cheaper 150p - Cheap, fast at f/5 for imaging deep sky objects, enough aperture for decent views of DSO's and enough aperture for decent resolution on planets, good focal length compromise at 750mm, fastish cool down time, and it's still very light and manageable. Have had a couple of these over the years, and I feel it's the scope I should have never sold, they really are great all rounders on a budget.

Here's another version that might be of interest? it has a nice looking focuser on it with 65mm 2..5" clear aperture, so vignetting might not be such a problem with an AP-C size sensor. It also has direct DLSR connection...just add a T-ring for you brand of camera and you're away.

https://www.telescopehouse.com/telescopes/telescopes-by-brand/brand-bresser-telescopes/bresser-messier-nt-150s-750-hex-focus-optical-tube-assembly.html

If money isn't an object, the ED120 and ES ED102, are great choices, a bit slower at f/7.5 and f/7 so exposures will need to be a about twice as long for similar results to the 150p/pds, but there will be no diffraction spikes on bright stars. They will have better contrast, and visually a 'prettier' view than the 6" Newt, diamonds on velvet is an expression often used to describe the views through a good refractor. The ED100 is a bit too slow @ f/9 for deep sky imaging which is why I didn't include it. 

Hope this helps  

p.s I've owned and used plenty of these scope - several 130pds's, a 150pds, 150p, 2x ED80's ( not a bad choice either), 2x ED100's, and one ED120, and I've partaken in both AP and visual over the years. 

 

[MattJenko]

I actually really liked the ED80 for visual when I had mine, as well as it being a lovely imaging scope. Just before I sold mine, I had it set up at an outreach event on an AzEQ6 with the ED80 on one side and a 10" newt on the other, and a lot of people preferred the views through the ED80 when I asked after people had used both. Not all mind, but a surprising %, as I thought the Newt would win hands down.

 

edit : I sold it to fund a different setup - not because it was no good

[Chris]

44 minutes ago, MattJenko said:

I actually really liked the ED80 for visual when I had mine, as well as it being a lovely imaging scope. Just before I sold mine, I had it set up at an outreach event on an AzEQ6 with the ED80 on one side and a 10" newt on the other, and a lot of people preferred the views through the ED80 when I asked after people had used both. Not all mind, but a surprising %, as I thought the Newt would win hands down.

 

edit : I sold it to fund a different setup - not because it was no good

Weirdly, I've had one of my best views of Jupiter ever with the humble ED80. The colour shading on the disc was lovely, and the GRS was a vivid rusty orange...the colours do tend to be a bit more washed out with Newt's I find, more neutral, but more fine detail owing to the increased aperture that Newts tend to have.

[scitmon]

16 hours ago, Masterkui said:

Hi Scitmon, i appreciate your thoughts, mounting my Dob on an eq mount was the first thing i thought about as well, but from what I have been told, it is possible but with modifications, which would require expertise, time and a bit of cash.  I can make the time, but sadly i lack the expertise/guts to do it and after some calculating i realised the money i would need to do it wouldn't be far off from buying a new scope.

Do you have any pictures posted online for forum users to view? would be interested to see how images come out.  Also do you use a CCD or DSLR?

I bought a Canon 1000D from ebay for about £80 and it has served me well so far.  CCD's are out of my price range at the moment.

For examples of what the 80ED can do, i think this thread will give you a good idea: 

 

[DaveS]

The very first thing to buy, if you don't have it already is this:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/books/making-every-photon-count-steve-richards.html

Steve is a moderator here, AKA Steppenwolf.

 

As has been said, don't try to mix AP with visual, I tried that at first, and it was just a mess.

The HEQ5 is a good entry level mount for AP, but don't try to mount something long on it even if it's below the weight limit, it won't track well. Also allow for the weight of a guide 'scope and its mounting hardware. There's a good reason people recommend something like the ubiquitous ED80 with focal reducer on the HEQ5, it just plain works. The ED80 is very good for the money, and with the reducer not too slow.

[Masterkui]

Thanks to all the new replies, each post has helped me understand that bit better the direction I want to go, I haven't yet decided on which scope but I am pretty sure I will look to bite the bullet and get the best mount I can first and also make it future proof (as much as possible anyway), so I am considering buying a Skywatcher EQ6-R PRO Synscan Go-To Equatorial Mount, at least this way I know I have the best possible starting point for AP.  And Scitmon those images are spectacular,  if I was able to take images anything like those I would have the fattest grin on my face :-)

[Masterkui]

Hi all,

just an update, I have purchased my mount and telescope.  I have bought a Skywatcher EQ6-R PRO Synscan Go-To Equatorial Mount, i know it may seem overkill but i thought it would put me in good stead for future upgrades.

Finding the telescope was the hard part.  I was looking at the skywatcher PDS 130mm which seems a great little scope by all accounts especially for AP but i was concerned about its portability and i could find no specific cases for Newtonians.  In any case it was out of stock in most places.  I then concentrated my search on the Evostar 80ed DS pro.  This too was out of stock almost everywhere.  In the end i found the older model with the older focuser for £450 from telescope-direct. Hopefully should be delivered for me tomorrow.

Thanks again for everyones help and advice, much appreciated :-)