Skywatcher ED120, some musings

[Chris]

6 minutes ago, cotterless45 said:

I heartily agree with Jules , I had two such size scopes and they didn't fit in with the targets that I love under grotty skies. For maximum impact and punching above its weight , my C6r with 2" semi app filter eats peashooters for breakfast , old Nick,?

 

Close your ears my little Vixen A80, close your ears!  

[Moonshane]

I do also see a sliver of e.g. yellow on the limb but in truth if I centre the limb so it's on axis, it disappears. I don't see any when off axis in other areas though. Furthermore, the worst CA is seen when objects are low and this is not the fault of scope, rather the atmosphere as (I think) hinted at by Jules. To my mind there's absolutely no doubt that the 120ED is far superior to e.g. my old 120mm f8 Celestron OMNI XLT which showed a lot of CA on bright objects and is why I sold it. OK larger aperture and better skies always provides more detail but I do find my 120ED on my driven EQ5 is fast becoming my most used scope by a fair margin. Personally, I count myself lucky to have six wonderful scopes (and one likkle one) from 400mm to 60mm to use of which only one cannot be used at night and this provides a different experience whenever I want one.

I also hope Jules will keep reviewing when he wants to as all opinions are valid. Not that this was a particularly negative review in truth but I found it difficult to post negative comments about an eyepiece which seems to have universal approval although I was referring to a specific type of use (binoviewing) to which they were not suitable in my eyes. I did though think it important to mention the issues I had. 

 

 

[John]

1 hour ago, cotterless45 said:

I heartily agree with Jules , I had two such size scopes and they didn't fit in with the targets that I love under grotty skies. For maximum impact and punching above its weight , my C6r with 2" semi app filter eats peashooters for breakfast , old Nick,?

 

I've had just the opposite experience Nick. So there we go

 

[Moonshane]

Thanks goodness we're not all the same.

[Stu]

1 hour ago, Moonshane said:

 

I do also see a sliver of e.g. yellow on the limb

 

How very dare you Shane!!  

[Timebandit]

2 hours ago, cotterless45 said:

I heartily agree with Jules , I had two such size scopes and they didn't fit in with the targets that I love under grotty skies. For maximum impact and punching above its weight , my C6r with 2" semi app filter eats peashooters for breakfast , old Nick,?

 

 

I hope my little ed120mm is not being insulted and being called a peashooter?

I think Jules purchased his 120ed used. And there is always a strong market for these peashooters?, therefore if Jules after  thorough testing and use is not happy with the sw120 then the likelihood is he will get his money back or a very small loss if he decides to sell it. So minimal damage to his wallet, and these used  sw120ed do seem to sell quickly in the second hand market

The trouble is then what scope is going to fit Jules needs? Are we going to see another post ?

[mikeDnight]

Wide angle eyepieces introduce lateral colour to the view and often the scope gets the blame. On axis and in focus the SW ED's can rightly said to be apochromatic, at least visually.

Mike

[mikeDnight]

18 minutes ago, Timebandit said:

 

I hope my little ed120mm is not being insulted and being called a peashooter?

I think Jules purchased his 120ed used. And there is always a strong market for these peashooters?, therefore if Jules after  thorough testing and use is not happy with the sw120 then the likelihood is he will get his money back or a very small loss if he decides to sell it. So minimal damage to his wallet, and these used  sw120ed do seem to sell quickly in the second hand market

The trouble is then what scope is going to fit Jules needs? Are we going to see another post ?

Pea shooter or not, the 120 ED will pound the living daylights out of any 6" F8 achromat on the Moon and Planets, every time! 

Aperture counts for nothing when definition is compromised! 

Mike

Edited May 2, 2017 by mikeDnight

[spaceboy]

My 2p on an ED120:-

FWIW I love my ED120. And I mean love   It is one of those rare things in life that brings me nothing but happiness when I use it. I guess the enjoyment some ED120 owners express over their scope may come across to others as hype but, me personally as to someone who couldn't hope to own an APO any larger or exotic than a Chinese ED refractor, my enthusiasm for the scope could be said to run rather strong. I have to admit I have never really owned an achromatic refractor over f/9.5 so have never really experienced what a slow well corrected achromat has to offer but for the experience I have had the ED120 more than fulfils my requirements from a 4.75" refractor. If the truth be known I'm not even sure I got one of the best of examples but in my eyes the views are just so aesthetically pleasing, clean, naturally coloured, contrasted, steady and sharp. It doesn't show me DSO's what my 200P does but then I don't expect it to and that's why I have both. I do though feel what DSO's can be resolved in the ED120 offered far better detail than they did in my larger EVO150. Maybe this is better coatings or control of SA in the ED but it seemed pointless keeping the EVO150 despite being more than happy with it previously. It would be worth noting though that I have had far more enjoyable and productive nights out with scopes of 80-120mm aperture than I have with scopes of 150-305mm. Smaller scopes may not have the resolution of larger scopes but under my skies here in the UK a smaller scope seems to cut through seeing often showing me more than what a larger scope will at similar magnifications. There are those great nights where a larger scope really takes your breath but they seem ever increasingly few and far between for myself of recent.

Other than the expense involved in owning an ED120 (even if purchased used) I struggle to see what other critique anyone could have towards one when compared to scopes of a similar aperture ?? Maybe it is the cost that some cannot over come given a 7" MAK could be bought for less and offer a significant aperture advantage while still offering sharp stars across the entire FOV. You could even cover your wide field DSO requirements with a 10" dob to go with a 7" MAK for what the cost of a new ED120 would put you back. When it's said like this I can see why there are those who would yearn more for their investment.

 

As for yourself Jules I can't help but read doubt in your OP and indeed posts in other threads for that fact. While I am more than happy with my ED120 I would say if you have any doubt it isn't working for you Jules I'd say let it go. I have absolutely no idea what so ever to what you could replace it with, given the amount of scopes that have already seen your chopping block over the years?? I guess this may also be why John considered your wavering in the hobby and not the ED120 itself. I know you said at SGLXII that your very much into drone flying now so maybe this gives you more enjoyment than the frustrations of astronomy due to weather. We can all sympathise with regards that myself included as I'm still trying to figure out what the hell is causing such poor seeing over Brum. I swear it has to be the jet stream permanently camped out over my back garden??

I have money tied up in my astro kit as we all do and it is hard to have it sat there idle but it makes me happy when I do get out. Would I be at a loss for having an EVO120 instead of the ED120? No! Why? Because I would still have my hand in the hobby and that's all that matters. Do what makes you happy Jules.

[Alien 13]

I had always thought refactors had two optical elements in the design, the problems can be equally blamed on the objective and eyepiece and I very much doubt there is a perfect eyepiece out there.

Alan

[YKSE]

This is my first DSLR picture on the Moon with 120ED, clearly a newbie picture, but quite color-free from the scope

[Alkaid]

On 02/05/2017 at 19:16, spaceboy said:

I guess this may also be why John considered your wavering in the hobby and not the ED120 itself. I know you said at SGLXII that your very much into drone flying now...

Sorry to re-open the thread after such time, but well said.  It's very important to have other hobbies and interests, otherwise one can loose a bit of enthusiasm.  

I think that by taking time out from a hobby, two things happen.  1) You stop worrying about all the crap that comes with that particular hobby (e.g. poor weather and clouds).   And 2) when you do re-visit after a couple of months, you sort of re-kindle the hobby with double the enthusiasm.

In Jules defence, I think that if he was to take a break (won't happen LOL!) - he'd be very happy with whatever  scope was in the current line up.  It's simply brilliant to look through any telescope when you haven't done it for a while.  Brilliant.

PS - Jules, I quite like the fact that you are constantly changing scopes for evaluation - please don't let anyone stop you!

[rl]

"foggy, misty, or just plain raining"

Is the clue in the OP's title notes?

For 15 years my main scope was a 130mm f/10 Achro made by John Owen( still have it). It's by no means optically perfect..I would expect an ED120 to be better. Living in the centre of Birmingham, I found taking it to a decent dark site was the trick...I found all manner of DSOs with it under a dark sky. 

Would trying a filter help out on a lot of emission line DSOs? I find a UHC helps a lot in cities and a gentler Deep Sky helps a moderate to good sites.

[25585]

Having recently bought, but little used a 120 Equinox, I found this thread equally unsettling & inspiring. 

Buying my beautiful-to-look-at, as well as through, refractor is another step up in lens rather than reflection aided viewing. The former started with binoculars long long ago. 

Havinga Newtonian & a SCT, I would not contemplate that, even a 150 triplet could equal my C8 or 10" Bresser Messier for light grasp. But I could for resolution (what do close double star separations work best through?). 

My 120 is next step up from a Tele Vue Genesis 100mm. The Equinox is still light enough to load into a car & take where I want to view, it is not a dob. I can fit the dog beside it. 

Jules I hope you are enjoying your ED120 more! My next compact scope will either be a Mak or Goto drive fork mounted SCT - possibly an 8 again. The C8 is a good general purpose scope that will pick up DSO, has catalogues of accessories for adapting to different uses & my orange tube still has no dents. For an aperture boost but with the neatness fracs give, I recommend a SCT!

[John]

I believe Jules has parted from his ED120 now and returned to the mak-cassegrain desgn which is a firm favourite of his

 

[25585]

1 minute ago, John said:

I believe Jules has parted from his ED120 now and returned to the mak-cassegrain desgn which is a firm favourite of his

 

They are great alternatives!

[Timebandit]

11 hours ago, John said:

I believe Jules has parted from his ED120 now and returned to the mak-cassegrain desgn which is a firm favourite of his

 

 

 

11 hours ago, 25585 said:

They are great alternatives!

 

Firstly happy Christmas to you all on this Christmas day ?

 

I think Jules may be tempted again with a Frac. He seemingly is getting very very tempted by the TAL 100 RS. Obviously a very nice refractor if you can find one. ?

 

 

 

[25585]

15 hours ago, Timebandit said:

 

 

 

Firstly happy Christmas to you all on this Christmas day ?

 

I think Jules may be tempted again with a Frac. He seemingly is getting very very tempted by the TAL 100 RS. Obviously a very nice refractor if you can find one. ?

 

 

 

Happy Christmas!

I am confused. Selling a 120, going back to a 100 spyglass. OK for AP I guess but going to be more disappointing for visual. 

[nightfisher]

On 24/12/2017 at 22:58, John said:

I believe Jules has parted from his ED120 now and returned to the mak-cassegrain desgn which is a firm favourite of his

 

This indeed true on both counts, my 127 skymax is giving Stirling performance as and when the weather slips up and actually plays nice (not often at all) For the record the ED120 i had was optically and mechanically perfect, it just was not the scope for me

[nightfisher]

6 hours ago, 25585 said:

Happy Christmas!

I am confused. Selling a 120, going back to a 100 spyglass. OK for AP I guess but going to be more disappointing for visual. 

I have little interest in getting any more scopes, however as a few members will be aware, i am extremely fond of the TAL100rs, and if the right scope came up for sale at the right price i would more than likely snap it up

[25585]

1 hour ago, nightfisher said:

This indeed true on both counts, my 127 skymax is giving Stirling performance as and when the weather slips up and actually plays nice (not often at all) For the record the ED120 i had was optically and mechanically perfect, it just was not the scope for me

Glad your 120 ED was OK, sad you didn't like it.

What do you prefer about the 127 Mak, given the small increase in aperture with CO now. I would have thought the 150 would be a more signifigant upsize. 

[Stu]

1 hour ago, 25585 said:

What do you prefer about the 127 Mak, given the small increase in aperture with CO now. I would have thought the 150 would be a more signifigant upsize. 

Given our climate, it is often the case that aperture is not everything, but convenience and speed of setup/breakdown are. The 150 needs a heavier mount and longer cool down than the 127 so I'm sure these are all factors that are important.

I 'only' have a 4" scope currently. That's not to say I would not have larger again in future but I'm quite happy observing with it, the views are lovely, far from disappointing and it is very quick to setup and pack away to make use of quick gaps in the cloud or short opportunities.

[nightfisher]

1 hour ago, 25585 said:

Glad your 120 ED was OK, sad you didn't like it.

What do you prefer about the 127 Mak, given the small increase in aperture with CO now. I would have thought the 150 would be a more signifigant upsize. 

I like the size of the 127, it sits on the EQ5 with no bother, i really prefer a scope to be overmounted, this was one of the problems with the ED120 i felt the mount was not quite as sturdy as i like, at this time due mainly to light pollution i decided to concentrate more on what i can do, rather than what i would like to do so now i am visual on planets and visual and imaging on Luna.

ref the 150 pro, i have owned 2 of these and they are "stunning scopes" but for my type of imaging the focal length it way to long

[nightfisher]

2 minutes ago, Stu said:

Given our climate, it is often the case that aperture is not everything, but convenience and speed of setup/breakdown are. The 150 needs a heavier mount and longer cool down than the 127 so I'm sure these are all factors that are important.

I 'only' have a 4" scope currently. That's not to say I would not have larger again in future but I'm quite happy observing with it, the views are lovely, far from disappointing and it is very quick to setup and pack away to make use of quick gaps in the cloud or short opportunities.

well said that man....and late happy xmas

[iPeace]

I recognize much of what Jules @nightfisher relates. I owned and very much enjoyed an equally faultless 120ED, but decided to let it go mostly due to size. It's the largest scope I've ever tried - not large at all, I realize, by common standards - and I did a lot to make it "work" for me, applied a carrying handle, balancing weights, built a case for it. I use undriven alt-az mounts, and at the time I was using huge heavy eyepieces - so getting everything balanced and working smoothly was a challenge and each nudge or focus tweak inevitably caused vibrations. The views were great, but in retrospect, I had to work for them, a bit harder than I liked. (This is a personal preference, I'm sure others put up with quite a bit more to get the views they want.) Add to that the prospect of a mostly itinerant observing style, and the long scope and big eyepieces were better off in a different home.

I tried a Mak 102, liked it, but wasn't getting much - if any - more than from my small fracs. Still curious how much aperture I can enjoyably apply for lunar and planetary observing (under the best of conditions and circumstances) - and how much difference it will make to me - I am now awaiting arrival of a new 150 Mak. It will live in a shed and hopefully come out all nice and cool on domestic lunar nights.