The Baader BBHS-Sitall Silver Diagonal - Is it really that good?

[paulastro]

I recently came across this item, did a search and came up with this review:

https://www.cloudynights.com/articles/cat/user-reviews/the-baader-bbhs-sitall-silver-diagonal-r3038

To be frank, I was quite amazed about how good it sounded, perhaps a game-changer to a visual planetary observer like myself.   I won't quote anything from the review ( I'm not sure this is allowed) but read how the view through the BBHS compares to the view through a well respected dielectric diagonal and you'll understand why I felt a bit excited.

If it's so good I'm wandering why I'd never even heard of it until recently, never read about it before or heard it mentioned, and certainly never seen one or known anyone who has used one.

It's not cheap, more than I would usually think of paying for a diagonal      http://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/baader-2-bbhs-mirror-diagonal-with-2-clicklock-clamp.html

So come on, someone put me out of my misery and tell me I'm getting things out of proportion and I really don't need one

[Stu]

You don't NEED one Paul, but they are very nice, and it is good to know you've got the best.

I have the T2 version which is significantly cheaper than the full 2". Not done a proper comparison against other but overall the results I get are the best I've had, so I'm happy  

[paulastro]

Many thanks Stu.  Relieved I don't NEED one .  Is the difference when observing Jupiter so much better than when using a good dielectric as it sounds in the review?  If it were even half true, I might be in the WOULD LIKE ONE VERY MUCH category . 

Also, is the T2 version for photography, and if not, how does it work visually - please excuse my ignorance.

[Tonynexevo925]

Need... ?

Like for like I felt there was a small improvement over the Baader 2" dielectric 

https://www.widescreen-centre.co.uk/astronomy-diagonals-and-erecting-prisms/baader-planetarium-diagonals-and-prisms/baader-2-clicklock

when I used Hyperion EPs I was happy - if I compare to the Ethos I know my preference but wouldn't feel unhappy to revert. 

[Stu]

2 minutes ago, paulastro said:

Many thanks Stu.  Relieved I don't NEED one .  Is the difference when observing Jupiter so much better than when using a good dielectric as it sounds in the review?  If it were even half true, I might be in the WOULD LIKE ONE VERY MUCH category . 

Also, is the T2 version for photography, and if not, how does it work visually - please excuse my ignorance.

With all the higher end diagonals, I tend to think it is the reduction in light scatter around bright planets that is most noticeable. Assumption is that this contributes to improved contrast.

With the T2 you need either a 1.25" or 2" to T2 barrel on the scope side, plus a 1.25" or 2" eyepiece holder and you are away. Some of the accessories are listed at the bottom of this link but you can fit clicklock too.

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p7950_Baader-T2-BBHS-Sitall-Zenitspiegel-mit-1-10-lambda-Oberflaeche.html 

You can fix T2 binoviewers or eyepieces like the Baader Zoom directly to the diagonal. This gives a more solid connection plus saves optical path length in the case of binoviewers. The BBHS has a longer path length than the T2 Prism I think but is still pretty short.

[John]

It's easy to get confused with Baader products as to which is which

I have their T2 Zeiss prism diagonal but thats a different thing again to the one that Stu mentions I think

I think it (mine) was the one that BillP felt was the best in his previous diagonal round up.

I also have the Astro Physics one included in the above review (the BBHS one) and that seems very good as well.

We used to say that diagonals were pretty similar but they seem to be another component to agonise over now

 

[Stu]

Just now, John said:

It's easy to get confused with Baader products as to which is which

I have their T2 Zeiss prism diagonal but thats a different thing again to the one that Stu mentions I think

I think it (mine) was the one that BillP felt was the best in his previous diagonal round up.

I also have the Astro Physics one included in the above review and that seems very good as well.

 

Paul was talking about the BBHS mirror diagonal John, not the Zeiss Prism.

[paulastro]

4 minutes ago, Stu said:

With all the higher end diagonals, I tend to think it is the reduction in light scatter around bright planets that is most noticeable. Assumption is that this contributes to improved contrast.

With the T2 you need either a 1.25" or 2" to T2 barrel on the scope side, plus a 1.25" or 2" eyepiece holder and you are away. Some of the accessories are listed at the bottom of this link but you can fit clicklock too.

http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p7950_Baader-T2-BBHS-Sitall-Zenitspiegel-mit-1-10-lambda-Oberflaeche.html 

You can fix T2 binoviewers or eyepieces like the Baader Zoom directly to the diagonal. This gives a more solid connection plus saves optical path length in the case of binoviewers. The BBHS has a longer path length than the T2 Prism I think but is still pretty short.

Many thanks Stu, that's really helpful, you've provided some invaluable information - many thanks.

[John]

1 minute ago, Stu said:

Paul was talking about the BBHS mirror diagonal John, not the Zeiss Prism.

Yes I know Stu. You mentioned the T2 that you have and I was just wondering if that was or was not the same T2 that I have ?

[paulastro]

3 minutes ago, John said:

It's easy to get confused with Baader products as to which is which

I have their T2 Zeiss prism diagonal but thats a different thing again to the one that Stu mentions I think

I think it (mine) was the one that BillP felt was the best in his previous diagonal round up.

I also have the Astro Physics one included in the above review (the BBHS one) and that seems very good as well.

We used to say that diagonals were pretty similar but they seem to be another component to agonise over now

 

Yes John, I've been agonising on how best to optimise the image with the 100DL, it's knowing which factors are most important to the final image and what makes a real difference.  Many thanks.

[John]

Just now, paulastro said:

Yes John, I've been agonising on how best to optimise the image with the 100DL, it's knowing which factors are most important to the final image and what makes a real difference.  Many thanks.

Well for what it's worth I've seen no appreciable differences in planetary performance between the T2 Baader / Zeiss (NON BBHS !) and the Astro Physics Maxbrite, thus far at least.

MikeDnight seems to do pretty well with the stock Tak 1.25" prism which I guess is also non BBHS.

I tend to keep the Baader / Zeiss T2 on the 100DL because it's a nice compact unit that seems to suit the scope well

 

 

[Highburymark]

I'm a Baader Zeiss fan too, though a second Bill P review suggested that the BBHS may be a tad better.

I'm done buying diagonals (at least until the next time I forget that the prism surface is vulnerable to eyepieces with long barrels and shove a Nagler zoom in there without thinking).

[John]

The thing is, the next review that BillP does will probably find a slightly better product again so what do we do ?. Jump from option to option or go for something good and then find out how to get the best out of it through sticking with it ?

( I don't know the answer to this of course ! )

 

 

 

[Highburymark]

Indeed John. He has a very effective and impressionable way of writing which does wonders for sales of the winning product, but nothing for the combined bank balances of amateur astronomers.....

[paulastro]

6 minutes ago, John said:

The thing is, the next review that BillP does will probably find a slightly better product again so what do we do ?. Jump from option to option or go for something good and then find out how to get the best out of it through sticking with it ?

( I don't know the answer to this of course ! )

 

 

 

Thanks John.  I think you're quite right in your comments.  In fact I haven't got a two inch diagonal of any type at the moment, I'm using an old 1.25 TVue dielectric I've had for years.  It's performance seems to be similar  to Mikes 1.25 Tak prism, but I'm after a 2" diagonal because it is a more secure fit than a 1.25 fitting and won't be so prone to slipping when extended out at an angle from the tube.

I just want to make sure that I end up getting a good 2 inch diagonal that will do justice to the Tak FC 100 DL.  I  want to make sure I don't have a weak link in the system.  I'd also been thinking about the WO 2 inch Dura-Bright which comes in at around £135, but if there's anything better at around the same price I'd be happy to know what other options people think I should consider - I'm quite happy if I don't have to spend £399 which I haven't got anyway at the moment! 

 

[John]

The weak links in my system are me followed by the weather

Everything else is rather good I think

[Stu]

1 hour ago, John said:

Yes I know Stu. You mentioned the T2 that you have and I was just wondering if that was or was not the same T2 that I have ?

So there are a number of variants, generally there seem to be T2 and 2" variants of each sort.

For example

Baader Prism

Baader Zeiss Prism

Baader Maxbright Mirror Diagonal

Baader BBHS-Sitall Mirror Diagonal

 

1 hour ago, John said:

Well for what it's worth I've seen no appreciable differences in planetary performance between the T2 Baader / Zeiss (NON BBHS !) and the Astro Physics Maxbrite, thus far at least.

BBHS refers to the mirror coating so I don't think you would get a BBHS Prism.

John, I'm sure the AP Maxbright is right up there so doubt you would see any appreciable differences.

My only logic to this is perhaps that for faster scopes the mirror is likely to be better, and the Prism is likely to be more suitable for slower scopes; the Zeiss Prism does pretty well in the Tak at f7.4. I don't have anything faster currently.

My problem is that I don't get much time at the eyepiece, and I would rather enjoy the views than worry about whether a Tak Prism is better or worse than a Zeiss Prism, or the Televue Everbrite is worse than the BBHS-Sitall. I know the kit is high end so I just enjoy them all.

[John]

Thanks Stu - very helpful

I seem to recall now that BBHS is a silver based coating of some type so only relevant to mirrors.

I agree entirely about enjoying all the fine kit.

 

[YKSE]

Stu has given very good explantions about different baader diagonals, what I'd like to add is just BBHS diagonals came after Bill's mirror vs prism diagonal review.

As to upgrading a diagonal, I don't see it should be any different than anything else in this hobby  we can be happy with the kits we have, we upgrade to Ethos for wider AFOV, we can later upgrade to Delos for better ER, and we can upgrade Delos to Delite for form and size.

[jetstream]

2 hours ago, Stu said:

the Prism is likely to be more suitable for slower scopes;

Great answer Stu, I might add the APO triplet (well mine anyway) around f7 performs superbly with the prism diag, better than the f7.5 ED doublet.

[John]

13 minutes ago, jetstream said:

Great answer Stu, I might add the APO triplet (well mine anyway) around f7 performs superbly with the prism diag, better than the f7.5 ED doublet.

That sounds good Gerry !

I currently have the Baader / Zeiss T2 prism on the F/9 Tak 100, the AP Maxbright on the TMB / LZOS 130 F/9.2 and Tele Vue Everbrights on the ED120 and the Vixen ED102SS F/6.5. Sounds like I've got it optomised

 

[jetstream]

You not only have the diagonals optimized John, the f9 Tak and F9.2 LZOS are as well for lunar/planetary. Great set up John, I bet the colors really come through in those scopes and with excellent detail.

[paulastro]

On ‎18‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 20:58, Stu said:

You don't NEED one Paul, but they are very nice, and it is good to know you've got the best.

I have the T2 version which is significantly cheaper than the full 2". Not done a proper comparison against other but overall the results I get are the best I've had, so I'm happy  

Stu, I managed to find the instructions online for my binoviewer (Baader Maxbright) which certainly made things clearer for me.  it's embarrassing  to admit it, but I've had it a long time and didn't realise it was compatible with the T2 system, how sad is that!

As you say the T2 version of the BBHS diagonal is much cheaper, around £226 compared with around £399 for the 'full' version.  So if I'm understanding it correctly, my binoviewer will fit directly to one end of the diagonal (after unscrewing the 1.25 nosepiece I bought with it)  and the nosepiece will then fit to the other end of the binoviewer  to go into the telescope?  So, initially I'd have no extra expense to get it all working together using the binoviewer.

I realise that at some time I'd need to buy an eyepiece adapter for the diagonal so I can use it with a single eyepiece rather than the binoviewer.  Also, I'd want a 2 inch fitting for the other end (instead of the 1.25 fitting I have) eventually to have a firmer fit to the telescope.

It felt like one of those eureka moments when I read the instructions for my binoviewer

Many thanks for all your help.

[Stu]

Hi Paul,

Excellent news! Yes, that is totally my understanding of how it should work.

I do not have any BVs which have T2 fittings currently, but I know @Moonshane uses this system to reduce the light path particularly for solar observing I think. Worth checking out his threads too.

[paulastro]

Very many thanks Stu, I'm really pleased to see the  light at the end of the tunnel .  I just need to find a supplier who has one, there is always TS if I can't find someone more 'local', thanks again.