Binoviewers vs Mono viewing

[GavStar]

This has been discussed before and the general conclusion is that it's individual preference. It's taken me a few years but over the last week I think I've finally worked out mine.

I initially bought some WO binoviewers about 2 years ago and struggled to get any sort of decent views and I had significant merging issues. So they got sold and I went back to mono for a time. I then decided to have another shot, but this time I went for the higher quality baader mark v binoviewer. It was using these that I began the see some benefits of binoviewers. The first time I had the 3D effect (on Jupiter and its moons) really impressed me and the increased comfort of 2 eye viewing was also clear.

However it wasn't all plain sailing and I found getting the right combination of eyepieces, barlows and glasspath correctors really quite tricky. The need to narrower eyepieces with good eye relief took out a lot of options. In the end for me televue panoptics work best.

I prefer observing bright objects so most nights I think I will be using the binoviewers but occasionally swapping to the ES 92 17mm for comfortable wide field views. On planets and the moon I'm happier with the binoviewers.

I saw another benefit of my binoviewers today. I decided to try them out with my brand new Lunt 60mm ha scope and they worked beautifully. With the pan 24mm I had to use the 1.7x gpc rather than 1.25x in order to achieve focus but this gave a nice 30x magnification.  I definitely saw more disc detail compared to mono.

Its taken a lot of experimenting with different eyepieces, gpcs etc, but I think I'm now happy that the binoviewers are my preference.

Good to have kit that works well for two quite different scopes - almost seems like value for money!

[Moonshane]

I agree. I am a relative newcomer to binoviewing too and find that I much prefer them for solar and lunar observing. For planetary I sometimes find them better and sometimes find that I cannot merge the images and sometimes I can! I Also agree that there's a bit of testing and pain to go through before you finally 'get there'. I am using Baader Maxbrights mainly due to reasonable cost and also the T2 connectivity which I really like as it allows you to reduce the light path used up quite dramatically. I am still a cyclops DSO observer though. I'm prefer simpler oculars though and mainly use plossls and also Baader Classic Orthos.

[John]

Interesting report Gavin

I've tried binoviewers twice now (owning them that is) but I just can't get on with them so I'll stick to mono

 

[kerrylewis]

Some binoviewers come up in the Classifieds so I decided to give them a try despite my scepticism founded on my very unequal quality eyes. They arrived the other day (thanks Paul) and last night was the first opportunity to try them. I don't have a matching pair of eyepieces so I concentrated on achieving focus first. With my 100ED I found that I needed to use the the supplied Barlow and a small 1.25" diagonal and I then achieved focus with a variety of eyepieces. The most comfortable seems to be my ES Maxvision 20mm which gave good detail on the moon and a reasonable image size with Jupiter.

At the next opportunity I'll try that combination with the Vixen 150 and if it works OK I may get another eyepiece to match - they are quite reasonably priced. I will be able to try binoviewing for real. Watch this space.

[Peter Drew]

For me, binoviewers make such an improvement in the performance of lunar, planetary and in particular solar observation that I wouldn't be without them. I find it difficult to understand how some people are fine with using a binocular but don't seem to be able to manage a binoviewer, perhaps it's just a case of the much higher magnifications in use. I'm so glad I can!     

[kerrylewis]

Yes Pater. I enjoy planetary viewing and I have read and heard so many good things about binoviewers that I was determined to try them. I'm really looking forward to proper first light. 

[jetstream]

It might be of benefit to use low power eyepieces ie 32mm TV plossls or the 25's first. They are easy to merge and will train your eyes (brain) to merge. Use lightweight eyepieces if possible, my Docter 12.5mm UWA's were giving me merge issues and it was traced to focuser "sag" or play. I tightened the Moonlight-no problems merging.

There is a reason high power eyepieces are harder to merge and the reason can be found with some digging.

The reason I bought the Denk Binotrons was because it is a well developed "system", and was usable on any scope right out of the box.It also has adjustable eyepiece holders and some use the Zeiss micro eyepieces with the adjustment in themselves.

Good luck ( and congrats)- binoviewing has changed my viewing experience completely.

[John]

2 hours ago, Peter Drew said:

... I find it difficult to understand how some people are fine with using a binocular but don't seem to be able to manage a binoviewer....

Thats just how I am Peter

I have owned binoviewers twice now each time for at least a couple of  months but I can't say that I enjoyed a single minute with them when I tried using them. I tried them with my 12" dob and my refractors and an SCT in the days when I used to own one. I wish I didn't find them so, especially as I read such glowing reports from others who are using them.

I find it difficult to understand and frustrating but having given them try twice now on a number of sessions and in different scopes I've just got to accept thats how it is for me. Wish I knew why

 

[Stu]

Glad you have found a 'happy place' with binoviewers Gavin.

I am now on my fifth and sixth pair of Binoviewers! I have a Baader Mark IV which I love particularly for white light solar, and now a pair of Antares which I believe are very similar to the TS ones and which I use for Ha.

I generally find them very good for large bright things i.e. Lunar and solar, but they don't really work for me on planets. I get a more colourful image but with all the detail smoothed out.

I've not used them much for DSOs but perhaps for smaller open clusters and globs they might work.

[GavStar]

This is one area where I've found higher quality binoviewers made a massive difference for me. I really didn't enjoy my first set which were WO but the baader mark v were a completely different kettle of fish. 

I'm not really into lunar observing but after last night that may change. With the binos the 3D effect was so vivid and it felt like I was actually orbiting the moon.

[Stu]

12 minutes ago, Gavster said:

This is one area where I've found higher quality binoviewers made a massive difference for me. I really didn't enjoy my first set which were WO but the baader mark v were a completely different kettle of fish. 

I'm not really into lunar observing but after last night that may change. With the binos the 3D effect was so vivid and it felt like I was actually orbiting the moon.

I do agree with this, to a degree. I did not get on with either the William Optics or Baader Macbrights, I just couldn't consistently merge the channels.

Since then I've had Denks, TS, Baader Mark IVs and Antares. All have worked very well. The Mark IVs are my favourite simply because they give such amazing white light solar views, but the Antares seem to do perfectly well for Ha. The TS and Antares have very nice self centering eyepiece holders with dioptre adjustment. The Mark IVs just have very tight tolerances on the holders and a set screw. Simple but effective!

[John]

MikeDnight uses quite low cost binoviewers and eyepieces I believe and nobody can argue with the results that he gets with his FC-100

[mikeDnight]

Here's a nice little bino view of Mars at 4.1 arc seconds from the night of April 7th. Syrtis Major is at least part of the albedo marking visible. 

Mike

 

[GavStar]

383x magnification - 100 times aperture. I think I should start experimenting with higher magnification.

[mikeDnight]

2 hours ago, Gavster said:

383x magnification - 100 times aperture. I think I should start experimenting with higher magnification.

It's not always beneficial, but with Mars being so tiny, its necessary to get the image scale. The Tak's do really well at high power if the seeing allows it!

Mike

[spaceboy]

20 hours ago, Peter Drew said:

For me, binoviewers make such an improvement in the performance of lunar, planetary and in particular solar observation that I wouldn't be without them. I find it difficult to understand how some people are fine with using a binocular but don't seem to be able to manage a binoviewer, perhaps it's just a case of the much higher magnifications in use. I'm so glad I can!     

For me personally it wasn't so much the views I couldn't get on with as tbh they were much more comfortable and in some cases showed more detail, but more so all the fussing that is associated with BV's. Which for me seemed like it was going to turn into an expense or possible tube chop I wasn't willing to commit to. I admit had I given them more of a chance and became more familiar with them it probably wouldn't have been such a chore. The cost of doubling up on eyepieces along with carrying sets of EPs, BV's, Barlows and maybe even diagonals to get the bino experience was also off putting. Again this is no doubt something one would get used to.

All said though I would like to give binoviewing another chance at a later date when I have the funds to experiment with different setups. I don't think it helps when you intend to use them in various scopes as what works in one scope doesn't necessarily work in the next. I think to do it properly you have to commit a hearty budget rather than halfhearted attempting it with cheap Chinese BV's but I might be wrong 

[Stu]

46 minutes ago, spaceboy said:

I think to do it properly you have to commit a hearty budget rather than halfhearted attempting it with che

Having used both the TS and Antares similar version of Binoviewers, I think they function very well and are easy to use/merge images.

My life got a lot easier when I decided to just use one pair of eyepieces, and then use extension tubes and a Barlow to adjust the power. It looks a little unwieldy but works very well. With T2 quick changers it is much easier than changing a pair of eyepieces.

[Moonshane]

 I must admit that there is a bit of messing about when you are sorting out your initial spacings, eyepieces, GPCs etc  etc but I have now got to the point where I know what set up to use for what targets and I am working towards no more than five pairs of eyepieces. Probably 32mm, 25mm, 20mm, 15mm and 11mm TV plossls. I have 25mm and 15mm and these serve well currently for lunar and solar but the others would be the icing on the cake for lower power and higher power. Everything has a cost and a benefit. The quick change system Stu mentions is not cheap (about the cost of a pair of used TV plossls per unit) but really excellent. Which is best depends on your viewpoint I suppose.

[Timebandit]

 

The binoviewers experience is as cheap or expensive as you wish to make it. But the diminishing scale of returns come into play. You can get a good binoviewers set up for less than a TV Nagler which will give great view's . Or you can get into the top of the line binoviewers and eyepieces that will literally cost you a arm and a leg. But like everything in this hobby the scale of returns comes into it. Your binoviewers that cost an arm and and leg are not going to be three or four times as a good set up costing a couple of hundred pounds. I have a set of TS binoviewers, Stu and Derek's former owners, and am really happy with the performance. And to keep the cost down I just doubled up on some of my existing eyepieces, TV plossl and Orthos, again with second hand , all in for a few hundred pounds, less than a Nagler nowadays, and give great view's on lunar and planetary☺  . I personally find the binoviewers experience more relaxing, more immersed in the target(as you are more shut off from the outside world) and less strain on the eyes compared to Cyclops, and so can stay at the eyepieces longer.     

[kerrylewis]

First real chance to try the binoviewers tonight with a matching pair of eyepieces. As I half expected, I didn't find it easy. I got a good image of Jupiter in each eyepiece but could not get them to merge however much I tried. There is a obviously a knack to this and next time I will try some of the tricks that I've read about to try to get the images to converge. I haven't given up  

[Moonshane]

You'll get there buddy.  start at lowest power and maybe adjust the 'fold' of the bvs

In truth when I am tired sometimes I struggle.

[jetstream]

3 hours ago, kerrylewis said:

First real chance to try the binoviewers tonight with a matching pair of eyepieces. As I half expected, I didn't find it easy. I got a good image of Jupiter in each eyepiece but could not get them to merge however much I tried. There is a obviously a knack to this and next time I will try some of the tricks that I've read about to try to get the images to converge. I haven't given up  

Which eyepieces Kerry?

Are the bino's collimated? Various things can hamper the merge such as a bit different fl EP's of the same "length", if they are cocked in the holders, tired eyes as Shane says or even focuser sag (me in my 15"). The bino barrels must be set so the images look like one.

Stu wisely uses the adjustable Zeiss eyepieces and also wisely chose a great focal length to bino with.

[niallk]

+1:

I find binoviewing great in my 250px on the moon, planets and white light solar.

I use a pair of TV 15mm plossls in cheap Baader Maxbrights, with a 2.6x GPC for a single 210x option.

My best ever views of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn have been in my 15" though, in mono (the BVs don't work so well in that scope tbh).

PS: I had a generously sized glass of wine one night while waiting for the 250px to cool to view Saturn... and was pretty shocked at the effect it had on my ability to merge images in my BV - I had to revert to mono that night!!

[kerrylewis]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

I must confess to two of the negative conditions mentioned - I was tired and I did have a couple of glasses of plonk while waiting for it to get dark

i haven't checked collimation etc but will do that today in the daylight.

I am using two 20mm eyepieces but also using the Barlow supplied with the binoviewers in order to achieve focus. I don't have another pair to try. This combination gives a reasonable image size for Jupiter with the 100ED. It seems to me that there wouldn't be much point in using binos on the planets if the object was too small.

Clear night forecast tonight so will try again - perhaps with the 150mm. I may also try wearing my contact lenses which will equal my eyes a bit. 

Kerry 

 

 

[mikeDnight]

9 hours ago, kerrylewis said:

First real chance to try the binoviewers tonight with a matching pair of eyepieces. As I half expected, I didn't find it easy. I got a good image of Jupiter in each eyepiece but could not get them to merge however much I tried. There is a obviously a knack to this and next time I will try some of the tricks that I've read about to try to get the images to converge. I haven't given up  

Hi Kerry,

I find that rotating the diopters merges or demerges the image in my binoviewers, so i first merge the image, focus the scope so that one eye comes to sharp focus, then retract the out of focus eyepiece slightly until its in sharp focus, then lock it down. I noticed on another binoviewer belonging to a friend, that the locking screw seemed to push the left eyepiece out of true, and demerging the image in the process. There are generally three screw holes, if your bv uses locking screws, so you may try using alternative holes if you find its the locking screw pushing on the eyepiece that's causing a problem. Ive placed the screws on the inner holes of my bv.

Mike