M51 and M81/82

[Scott Brown]

With it looking like a nice clear night from early evening I set  my gear up, got everything ready and dressed in thermals to begin my hunt, Orion Nebular, M51 and M81/82 in that order. Spent around 4 hours hunting them down starting with Orion, below Orion's Belt I saw what looked like 3 stars in a vertical position but when I looked at them through the scope they looked like groups of stars, I used x48 mag then moved to x92 , I concentrated on the middle group but after an hour I didn't spot anything like what I was looking for.

On to M51 just below and to the right of the last star in The Plough, how hard could it be? 2 hours later and Nothing.

So on to M81/82 at the opposite end of the plough. Although probably too high in the sky at this point I spent an hour hunting them down with again..... Nothing.

So for the last hour I turned my attention to old faithful ....... Jupiter, and at x240 and x170 seemed a bit hazy with what looked like atmospheric waves but even at x120 I could still see waves, don't get me wrong I could still see a couple bands and 3 moons that turned into 4 moons as the other one peeked out. I showed it to my son and even though this was my worst seeing of Jupiter yet, he was still more than impressed. I also had a look at the Full Moon but only a quick look as it was too bright.

Although I didn't get to find my targets this time it has made me more determined to find them next time so here's hoping for another chance soon. Can I put these failings down to a very bright Full Moon, it lit up the whole sky and was very close to Jupiter. How much difference does the full moon make to spotting things. I have spent all week finding out where M51, 81 and 82 are in the sky but couldn't see anything that resembled them.

So in short was it the Full Moon to blame or just my inexperience in the field.

thanks........ Scott

[laudropb]

I think it was probably down to a combination of the full Moon and poor seeing. I was out last night too and the seeing here was very poor.  I could just see the Orion Nebula, but struggled to see any great detail. I would only add that perhaps you were looking at the wrong area for this nebula. From your description you were looking at the belt stars. The nebula is further down in the stars that form Orion sword.

[Scott Brown]

4 minutes ago, laudropb said:

I think it was probably down to a combination of the full Moon and poor seeing. I was out last night too and the seeing here was very poor.  I could just see the Orion Nebula, but struggled to see any great detail. I would only add that perhaps you were looking at the wrong area for this nebula. From your description you were looking at the belt stars. The nebula is further down in the stars that form Orion sword.

Below the 3 belt stars  there were what looked like another 3 fainter stars in a line up and down from each other, they were fainter than the belt stars but you could make them out with the naked eye, I was looking more to the middle one, they looked like a wee group of starsin the middle one at x48 mag. The stars below the belt looked about right according to some illustrations I have looked at but I may have been way off. Thanks..... Scott

[laudropb]

Sorry Scott I read your post again and you were in the right area, just that you said horizontal 3 stars. As I said the nebula was not very clear last night so not a good night to try for the first time. As to your other targets I do not think you had much chance of seeing them at all. I looked at Jupiter but even at 80x the image was very unsteady. Don't worry you will find your targets on a night when the Moon and seeing conditions allow.

[Size9Hex]

Don't lose heart. I would try again when the moon isn't in the sky. A full moon brightens the sky so much that many faint targets, particularly galaxies and nebulae, are overwhelmed and become undetectable. Brighter open clusters can withstand a bit of moonlight and make for better hunting on moonlit nights if you want a DSO fix. Double stars are a nice option too.

[Scott Brown]

7 minutes ago, laudropb said:

Sorry Scott I read your post again and you were in the right area, just that you said horizontal 3 stars. As I said the nebula was not very clear last night so not a good night to try for the first time. As to your other targets I do not think you had much chance of seeing them at all. I looked at Jupiter but even at 80x the image was very unsteady. Don't worry you will find your targets on a night when the Moon and seeing conditions allow.

Yeh I edited it so say vertical after reading your post as I had written horizontal by mistake. Is x48 about right to view the Nebular?

[Knighty2112]

The moon was too strong last night really to get a decent view of M42, let alone anything else. Also, the seeing was pretty bad. I managed to see Jupiter, but it didn't hold up well to higher magnification views. Just missed the transit of Io so was a little peeved about that,  but at least the clouds did part at last to enable some limited viewing. Even the moon was shimmering around like crazy last night too. That jet stream high up was causing the bad seeing I think.  

[Knighty2112]

You should see the M42 nebula ok in widefield views with a 20mm EP or so well, although it can hold up to higher magnifications when the seeing and conditions allow. 

[Scott Brown]

8 minutes ago, Size9Hex said:

Don't lose heart. I would try again when the moon isn't in the sky. A full moon brightens the sky so much that many faint targets, particularly galaxies and nebulae, are overwhelmed and become undetectable. Brighter open clusters can withstand a bit of moonlight and make for better hunting on moonlit nights if you want a DSO fix. Double stars are a nice option too.

Thanks Paul..... It's not made me lose heart it's made me more determined. It will make it all the sweeter when I find them. I thought it would be down to the full moon but wasn't quiet sure..... Thanks .... Scott

[Scott Brown]

3 minutes ago, Knighty2112 said:

The moon was too strong last night really to get a decent view of M42, let alone anything else. Also, the seeing was pretty bad. I managed to see Jupiter, but it didn't hold up well to higher magnification views. Just missed the transit of Io so was a little peeved about that,  but at least the clouds did part at last to enable some limited viewing. Even the moon was shimmering around like crazy last night too. That jet stream high up was causing the bad seeing I think.  

I was sure I got a glimpse of the transit but might have just been my eyes playing tricks as when I only saw 3 moons I was looking for the other and at one point Im sure I noticed one in the bottom corner of Jupiter but I wasn't sure. The reason I thought I saw it was because when it appeared  I saw it come out of the region I thought I saw it in the first place.

[Knighty2112]

16 minutes ago, Scott Brown said:

I was sure I got a glimpse of the transit but might have just been my eyes playing tricks as when I only saw 3 moons I was looking for the other and at one point Im sure I noticed one in the bottom corner of Jupiter but I wasn't sure. The reason I thought I saw it was because when it appeared  I saw it come out of the region I thought I saw it in the first place.

Yeah, you most definitely saw it then. Seeing was terrible, but was just occasionally steady enough to make out some details. I just missed the transit by about 5 minutes as when I saw Io it was like just a little pimple of light on the edge of Jupiter. 

[laudropb]

1 hour ago, Scott Brown said:

Yeh I edited it so say vertical after reading your post as I had written horizontal by mistake. Is x48 about right to view the Nebular?

I usually start at 30x with a wide angle eyepiece, but when the seeing is good you can increase the magnification to see some of the finer details.

[wookie1965]

I did not even bother looking for Galaxy`s last night as the moon was so bright washing out nearly everything seeing wasn't that good either, I went for a few clusters Jupiter and a couple of double stars that's it. I have seen M81 and M82 a few times but not managed M51 in four years.

[BXRO]

Hi Scott

 

I had the same problem, set myself the target of dissecting Ursa major to see what i could see. To much moon and wobbly air to see anything really couldn't even see M36, M37 or M38 so went back to the old faithfuls M42, M45, M44 and M25

[John]

Any sort of moonlight in the sky (whatever the phase) reduces the visibility of faint DSO's massively.

I could just about see M51 with my 130mm refractor last night but thats because I know just exactly where to look. I didn't spend any time on it though because it looks so, so much better in a moonless sky. Like wise M81 and M82, normally bright and easy objects, were very, very faint shadows of how they should look.

Open and globular clusters and small planetary nebulae are better DSO targets on a moonlit night but even those are affected to some extent.

[faulksy]

hi scott, as everyone has said its because of the moon. it lights up the sky like the sun, you wouldn't expect to see anything in daylight as it is similar especially standing on earth.

you probably looked through 51/81/82 but didn't notice them because of the lack of contrast. you will see them when the moon disappears. good luck 

[Scott Brown]

1 hour ago, wookie1965 said:

I did not even bother looking for Galaxy`s last night as the moon was so bright washing out nearly everything seeing wasn't that good either, I went for a few clusters Jupiter and a couple of double stars that's it. I have seen M81 and M82 a few times but not managed M51 in four years.

If you haven't seen M51 in 4 years then maybe it was a bit too ambitious of me to expect to find it during my first night looking for it haha, I need to be more patient I think..... Scott

[Scott Brown]

1 hour ago, BXRO said:

Hi Scott

 

I had the same problem, set myself the target of dissecting Ursa major to see what i could see. To much moon and wobbly air to see anything really couldn't even see M36, M37 or M38 so went back to the old faithfuls M42, M45, M44 and M25

It was a shame as well because it was a cloudless night.... Scott

[Scott Brown]

54 minutes ago, John said:

Any sort of moonlight in the sky (whatever the phase) reduces the visibility of faint DSO's massively.

I could just about see M51 with my 130mm refractor last night but thats because I know just exactly where to look. I didn't spend any time on it though because it looks so, so much better in a moonless sky. Like wise M81 and M82, normally bright and easy objects, were very, very faint shadows of how they should look.

Open and globular clusters and small planetary nebulae are better DSO targets on a moonlit night but even those are affected to some extent.

The problem with me is that I don't know exactly where M51 is, I've just got an idea where it should be..... Scott

[Scott Brown]

46 minutes ago, faulksy said:

hi scott, as everyone has said its because of the moon. it lights up the sky like the sun, you wouldn't expect to see anything in daylight as it is similar especially standing on earth.

you probably looked through 51/81/82 but didn't notice them because of the lack of contrast. you will see them when the moon disappears. good luck 

I didn't realise the moon would have so much influence on finding targets, but I certainly know now. At least I am getting used to where things are in the sky so it still makes it worthwhile. Thanks...... Scott

[Nyctimene]

3 hours ago, Scott Brown said:

It's not made me lose heart it's made me more determined. It will make it all the sweeter when I find them

Absolutely the right attitude to get most out of visual observing! Reading your post, I've admired your patience and determinedness. Both will lead you to many satisfying celestial targets. At any rate, you have already learned a lot about the star regions surrounding your specific objects; you will be astonished when you observe  these galaxies with no moon up. Enjoy, and Clear Skies!

Stephan

 

[John]

If we observed from the Canaries or Arizona and got 300+ clear nights a year we would be more relaxed about writing off a clear night due to moonlight or poor seeing (both last night !) in the knowledge that another clear night would be along real soon. As it is, for most of us, we never know when it is next going to be clear so we go out and make the best of it 

Even seeing a wobbly Jupiter is nice when you have had seemingly weeks of cloudy skies !

[kirkster501]

M51 has very low surface brightness any slight haze or moon will wash it out.  Most face on spirals are like this M33 and M101 included.

[JOC]

Hi Scott, I've never failed to find M42 (though I didn't try the night you were looking in the bad conditions).  However, now I know where it is I do wonder if you are in right place from your description.

On ‎13‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 09:30, Scott Brown said:

I saw what looked like 3 stars in a vertical position but when I looked at them through the scope they looked like groups of stars, I used x48 mag then moved to x92 , I concentrated on the middle group

It might be worth confirming where you should be by searching for M42 in Stellarium.  From experience it isn't within Orion's belt, and its not really in his sword.  Its a bit to the right of the sword (as I look to the sky with my naked eye) and sort of below the middle star of his belt.  On a good night I sort of see a general indistinct fuzziness reminiscent of distant stars that I can't quite make out with my naked eye, but is def. there with the naked eye.  That's M42, I see it nicely with my 26mm or even my  32mm (the whole nebula verges on filling the EP) a general fuzzy grey background with several much brighter more central stars in it.  If I then home in on the brightest of these (the trapezium) with my 10mm (which I'm guessing you will also have) the trapezium will resolve into at least 4 stars - that's how you will know you've found it and are right in the middle of it, but you won't see the whole thing unless you zoom out with the 26mm or similar - that's what I find anyway.  Go back and have another look, I think perhaps you aren't quite in the right place and are looking for it to be smaller than it is - even in bright moonlight I can still find it even with some faint wispy cloud about.  HTH

[PHIL53]

You do not say much about your equipment: I assume you have an optical 8x50 finder on you 8" Dob...nothing else ?

If so, you should consider adding a Telrad (my favourite) or a Rigel Quikfinder and with the appropriate maps as attached (or programs such as SkySafari on your smartphone) finding where M 51 lies will be easy !

Of course, if sky conditions are bad you will never see much, but at least you will know you are in the right spot !

 

MAPPE MESSIER X TELRAD.pdf