The final two! Canon 550D or Altair Astro GPCAMV2 IMX225

[Sierra Golf Mike]

I have spent hours pouring over imaging camera options and think I have narrowed it down to two options, The Cannon 550D and the Altair Astro GPCAMV2 IMX224. I want to do a bit of everything, Lunar, Solar, Planetary and some DSO stuff using all my scopes (tried my Canon 30D on the Mak 102 the other night and although focus looked sharp through the eyepiece, pictures were blurred?). I have seen some cracking images from both cameras in different areas and am finding it difficult to decide once and for all. Budget is limited so I cannot get both and I am likely to do more Lunar & Planetary than Solar or DSO. So I am looking for reasons to buy one over the other and maybe links to images from both camps. Then it will be time to push the button and start having some fun.

I await with baited breath!

Thanking all who have contributed to other posts offering help and to all who contribute to this one.

[Owmuchonomy]

A big difference in chip size and pixel size there so have you explored what image scale and resolution you will achieve with your scope? Both will work ok for planetary because the 550D has true movie crop mode but what planets will you image? Jupiter is becoming poor for the next 6 years as is Saturn for about 10 years.  You would benefit from an ADC so that should appear in your budget. If it was me I would aim for lunar and solar but if you choose the 224 chip then you will need to do a mosaic I think so check what image scale you can achieve. The 224 is excellent in IR so with an IR pass you can use it like a mono camera, great for the Moon.

[gnomus]

Lunar/Solar/Planetary and DSO tend to be two different things (though certainly some DSOs can be imaged with a planetary cam).  If the first is your thing, you would be better with a dedicated planetary camera that shoots video.  Next thing is mono vs colour.  For solar and lunar I would have thought mono was the way to go.  For planetary, mono vs colour is a bit more debatable.  Have you checked out the ZWO range?

If you have been using a DSLR up to now, prepare yourself for increased difficulty getting your object to fall on the sensor of your planetary cam.

You will have considerable difficulty focussing by looking through a viewfinder.  The standard advice is to use a Bahtinov mask - a quick search will show you how to use one of these.  (In summary, focus on a nearby star with the mask, then slew to your target.)

[Sierra Golf Mike]

33 minutes ago, Owmuchonomy said:

A big difference in chip size and pixel size there so have you explored what image scale and resolution you will achieve with your scope? Both will work ok for planetary because the 550D has true movie crop mode but what planets will you image? Jupiter is becoming poor for the next 6 years as is Saturn for about 10 years.  You would benefit from an ADC so that should appear in your budget. If it was me I would aim for lunar and solar but if you choose the 224 chip then you will need to do a mosaic I think so check what image scale you can achieve. The 224 is excellent in IR so with an IR pass you can use it like a mono camera, great for the Moon.

Happy with Lunar and Solar, didn't realise Saturn & Jupiter would be out of the equation for so long. I've seen some basic DSO stuff done with both cameras so that will still be an option I guess. But where does the ADC come in? (assume it's Analog/Digital Converter). I'll check out the image scales for each scope with both options.

[Sierra Golf Mike]

18 minutes ago, gnomus said:

Lunar/Solar/Planetary and DSO tend to be two different things (though certainly some DSOs can be imaged with a planetary cam).  If the first is your thing, you would be better with a dedicated planetary camera that shoots video.  Next thing is mono vs colour.  For solar and lunar I would have thought mono was the way to go.  For planetary, mono vs colour is a bit more debatable.  Have you checked out the ZWO range?

If you have been using a DSLR up to now, prepare yourself for increased difficulty getting your object to fall on the sensor of your planetary cam.

You will have considerable difficulty focussing by looking through a viewfinder.  The standard advice is to use a Bahtinov mask - a quick search will show you how to use one of these.  (In summary, focus on a nearby star with the mask, then slew to your target.)

I assume that I don't need a pile of filters if I want a purely mono image! I was about set on the ZWO ASI120MC when I was pointed at the Altair Astro GPCAM V2 which has the same chip as the ZWO ASI224 which is £100 dearer, what more it does for the extra £100 is a mystery! I was looking at getting a Bahtinov mask.

[gnomus]

For mono, you don't need a filter, but a screw in IR pass filter would be really nice on the moon.  A manual wheel and absorptive filters aren't too expensive and could be added later.  I found planets harder than the moon.  My suggestion would be to see how you get on imaging the moon in mono and see how you get on.  I started with a ZWO 120 mono.

(Obviously, solar work needs a load of other expensive equipment.  Please don't try shooting the sun without getting the right gear.  At best, you might break equipment.  The real risk is that you might break yourself, though.)

[Sierra Golf Mike]

3 minutes ago, gnomus said:

For mono, you don't need a filter, but a screw in IR pass filter would be really nice on the moon.  A manual wheel and absorptive filters aren't too expensive and could be added later.  I found planets harder than the moon.  My suggestion would be to see how you get on imaging the moon in mono and see how you get on.  I started with a ZWO 120 mono.

(Obviously, solar work needs a load of other expensive equipment.  Please don't try shooting the sun without getting the right gear.  At best, you might break equipment.  The real risk is that you might break yourself, though.)

Thanks for that Gnomus, after buying a camera, I certainly won't be forking out for more expensive equipment. I do have solar film to make a solar mask, will that suffice for basic solar viewing and photographing?

[Sierra Golf Mike]

1 hour ago, Owmuchonomy said:

 If it was me I would aim for lunar and solar but if you choose the 224 chip then you will need to do a mosaic I think so check what image scale you can achieve. 

Just had a look at the FOV calculator and indeed for a full lunar or solar image it would need to be a mosaic. The Canon 550D on the other hand would be fine with a 2 x Barlow. That said, I love seeing some of those close ups showing superb detail of small areas of the moon.

[gnomus]

7 minutes ago, Sierra Golf Mike said:

Thanks for that Gnomus, after buying a camera, I certainly won't be forking out for more expensive equipment. I do have solar film to make a solar mask, will that suffice for basic solar viewing and photographing?

You should manage white light solar imaging with that.

1 minute ago, Sierra Golf Mike said:

Just had a look at the FOV calculator and indeed for a full lunar or solar image it would need to be a mosaic. The Canon 550D on the other hand would be fine with a 2 x Barlow. That said, I love seeing some of those close ups showing superb detail of small areas of the moon.

Yes, with a planetary camera you will be imaging bits of the moon and would need to mosaic if you want a full disc.  On the other hand, I do not think a DSLR is the best way of imaging the moon.  You should look up 'lucky imaging' and understand why that might be a better technique for luanr/solar/planetary.  This is quite different to long-exposure deep sky work.  

I'd work out what I wanted to do before shellng out any greenbacks.

[Sierra Golf Mike]

1 hour ago, gnomus said:

Y You should look up 'lucky imaging' and understand why that might be a better technique for luanr/solar/planetary.  

Had a look at "lucky imaging" which is basically taking videos then stacking the individual frames, I think. So a Canon 550D can take videos, so that should mean that I can do "lucky imaging" with a DSLR! Or am I missing something?

[Owmuchonomy]

ADC = Atmospheric Dispersion Corrector which may help you with imaging the lowly placed planets particularly at your latitude. The 550 D is a good choice for planetary imaging because of the 1:1 movie crop mode at 640x480 helping achieve a decent image scale.

regarding ZWO 224 vs Altair, the ZWO will give you faster frame rates on USB3.

i still maintain the planets are poorly placed. I personally wouldn't invest in a DSLR for planetary imaging unless it was your daily terrestrial camera. For just lunar and solar I would get a mono camera. There is no advantage in getting colour, just disadvantages. Thus I chose the stonkingly good ASI 174 mono. See my recent threads in the lunar imaging section.

[gnomus]

46 minutes ago, Sierra Golf Mike said:

Had a look at "lucky imaging" which is basically taking videos then stacking the individual frames, I think....

Stacking the best of the individual frames (as chosen by some clever free software).

You might manage lucky imaging with a DSLR.  You might find it easier to control a dedicated camera with your computer.  Have a look at the lunar and planetary imaging section and see what folks are using.  Ask yourself why they are using what they are using.  I am more of a DSO imager and only really dabble with the planetary/lunar/solar stuff.

Plus, what Owmuchonomy said.

[Sierra Golf Mike]

1 hour ago, Owmuchonomy said:

ADC = Atmospheric Dispersion Corrector which may help you with imaging the lowly placed planets particularly at your latitude. The 550 D is a good choice for planetary imaging because of the 1:1 movie crop mode at 640x480 helping achieve a decent image scale.

regarding ZWO 224 vs Altair, the ZWO will give you faster frame rates on USB3.

i still maintain the planets are poorly placed. I personally wouldn't invest in a DSLR for planetary imaging unless it was your daily terrestrial camera. For just lunar and solar I would get a mono camera. There is no advantage in getting colour, just disadvantages. Thus I chose the stonkingly good ASI 174 mono. See my recent threads in the lunar imaging section.

Thanks Chris,

I'm afraid the ASI 174 is way out of my price range but there are other mono cameras I can look at. The Canon 550D would have been a dedicated AP camera, bought second hand. I will have a look at your threads to see if it will give me inspiration. Maybe I should concentrate on Lunar and Solar for a while and see how I get on.

[Owmuchonomy]

10 minutes ago, Sierra Golf Mike said:

Thanks Chris,

I'm afraid the ASI 174 is way out of my price range but there are other mono cameras I can look at. The Canon 550D would have been a dedicated AP camera, bought second hand. I will have a look at your threads to see if it will give me inspiration. Maybe I should concentrate on Lunar and Solar for a while and see how I get on.

Sure. I just feel that for folks keen to image the solar system planets they should be sure they can actually get to something to image. It's an issue at our latitudes for some while now im afraid. Have you thought about a ZWO ASI 120MM second hand? That's where I started in mono. They come up from time to time here and on UK ABS.

[Sierra Golf Mike]

3 hours ago, Owmuchonomy said:

Sure. I just feel that for folks keen to image the solar system planets they should be sure they can actually get to something to image. It's an issue at our latitudes for some while now im afraid. Have you thought about a ZWO ASI 120MM second hand? That's where I started in mono. They come up from time to time here and on UK ABS.

Looking at your Lunar imaging, I can see the merits in mono imaging, the Altair Astro GPCAMV2 can be used in mono mode with an IR Pass filter but could be used in colour for planetary or even DSO. I was informed that the chip was on a different level from the ASI120. Would you still recommend the ASI120MM over the IMX224 chipped Astro used in mono mode?

[Alien 13]

If you discount Planets, not a good time for several years and even Solar for the same reasons then you are left with Luna and DSO. The problem I have with the Moon is that its not monochrome and is quite large  If it was my money I would buy a 600 D instead of the 550 D and have a good all rounder.

Alan

 

[Owmuchonomy]

10 hours ago, Sierra Golf Mike said:

Looking at your Lunar imaging, I can see the merits in mono imaging, the Altair Astro GPCAMV2 can be used in mono mode with an IR Pass filter but could be used in colour for planetary or even DSO. I was informed that the chip was on a different level from the ASI120. Would you still recommend the ASI120MM over the IMX224 chipped Astro used in mono mode?

I wouldn't recommend as they are different animals. I was thinking of an alternative to the 174 within your budget. You can use the 224 with an IR pass but the sensitivity is lower than the visual band but it is possible. The big issue for me is the poor planetary target placement for some considerable time and as Alan says the Sun in White light will be very low activity. Fortunately I have h alpha.  If you are DSO hunting then check the FOV of the 224 chip on some targets, a DSLR will give you a bigger choice but you may want to modify it. DSO imaging will test your mount seriously though. There lies a whole new thread!

[Sierra Golf Mike]

6 minutes ago, Owmuchonomy said:

I wouldn't recommend as they are different animals. I was thinking of an alternative to the 174 within your budget. You can use the 224 with an IR pass but the sensitivity is lower than the visual band but it is possible. The big issue for me is the poor planetary target placement for some considerable time and as Alan says the Sun in White light will be very low activity. Fortunately I have h alpha.  If you are DSO hunting then check the FOV of the 224 chip on some targets, a DSLR will give you a bigger choice but you may want to modify it. DSO imaging will test your mount seriously though. There lies a whole new thread!

I know my mount is limiting to say the least, but I've seen what I consider to be decent images with many short exposures (5 sec or so) stacked and that was the way I was thinking. This in theory could be achieved with a DSLR or an ASI/Astro. When you say they are different animals, are you talking in terms of mono and colour and would the Astro used in mono mode be very much different?

[happy-kat]

There is one thread dedicated to imaging using your mount.

[Owmuchonomy]

3 hours ago, Sierra Golf Mike said:

I know my mount is limiting to say the least, but I've seen what I consider to be decent images with many short exposures (5 sec or so) stacked and that was the way I was thinking. This in theory could be achieved with a DSLR or an ASI/Astro. When you say they are different animals, are you talking in terms of mono and colour and would the Astro used in mono mode be very much different?

I am going on the response curves of the ZWO cameras I have previously investigated.  I don't have any practical experience of the IR response of the 224 colour only the 174 mono (the 290 is even better than the 224 in theory).  I haven't seen any DSO lucky imaging at 5 sec from a DSLR so if you have evidence of such then you know more than I about that part.

[Sierra Golf Mike]

On 2/11/2017 at 23:36, Alien 13 said:

 If it was my money I would buy a 600 D instead of the 550 D and have a good all rounder.

Alan

 

Did I not read that the video crop on the 600D was not as good as the 550D, can't remember exactly what it was but I'm sure there was something! If that is the case, what makes the 600D better?

[Alien 13]

Just now, Sierra Golf Mike said:

Did I not read that the video crop on the 600D was not as good as the 550D, can't remember exactly what it was but I'm sure there was something! If that is the case, what makes the 600D better?

The video crop is far better on the 550D, my point was though that the crop function is realy only useful on planets and they are not in good positions for a few years so its usefulness might be limited. The 600D has the advantage of a swivel screen.

Alan

[Sierra Golf Mike]

1 minute ago, Alien 13 said:

The video crop is far better on the 550D, my point was though that the crop function is realy only useful on planets and they are not in good positions for a few years so its usefulness might be limited. The 600D has the advantage of a swivel screen.

Alan

Thanks Alan

Yeah, I did notice that, will have a look at that option then. Getting more expensive all the time!

[Alien 13]

Just now, Sierra Golf Mike said:

Thanks Alan

Yeah, I did notice that, will have a look at that option then. Getting more expensive all the time!

They are normally about the same price used, check out MPB photographic or WEX, the 550 D is a fine camera though so dont let me put you off although the 600 D has from memory a newer processor so might be better with noise.

Alan

[Sierra Golf Mike]

1 minute ago, Alien 13 said:

They are normally about the same price used, check out MPB photographic or WEX, the 550 D is a fine camera though so dont let me put you off although the 600 D has from memory a newer processor so might be better with noise.

Alan

I was looking at Camera Jungle  and they are about £60 dearer, I'll look at MPB and WEX and see what they have. I was just looking at the FOV calculator and will need to use a 2x Barlow to fill the screen. But with the Altair Astro, I need a focal reducer! I can't win!