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Pointing at the target.


8spokes

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One thing to understand is the range of these lasers can be well over 50 miles with some of them into the hundreds. Aircraft switch off all navigation lights at ten thousand feet and that includes the logo light as well which means it's just the red anti collision lights on, and the outer wing nav lights so that can be practically impossible to see from the ground. I work with pilots and they are increasingly telling us of laser incidents ( and drones at lower FLs )

So as careful as you might think you can be the risk is probably higher than you thought. 

 

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2 hours ago, JG777 said:

One thing to understand is the range of these lasers can be well over 50 miles with some of them into the hundreds. Aircraft switch off all navigation lights at ten thousand feet and that includes the logo light as well which means it's just the red anti collision lights on, and the outer wing nav lights so that can be practically impossible to see from the ground. I work with pilots and they are increasingly telling us of laser incidents ( and drones at lower FLs )

So as careful as you might think you can be the risk is probably higher than you thought. 

 

I get what you're saying... But if I can see satellites then I can see planes... Which means I won't be using it if there's a plane. I'm not an idiot, as most people seem believe.

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2 hours ago, 8spokes said:

But if I can see satellites then I can see planes

I live about 10 miles from Leeds/Bradford airport. Planes tend to come on approach from the south west of us, though it varies. Sometimes I would look out and see a star I didn't  recognise  low-ish on the horizon and it would be a "just a star" for a little while. Then it gets a little brighter, and you think that conditions might be improving, then of course one star becomes two stars (binary?!) and its quickly apparent that  this is a plane some miles off, still silent, but coming directly towards me. I'm a little wiser now regarding unexplained lights in the sky. No wonder this part of Yorkshire  is seen as the UFO capital of the north! 

With all the care in the world I just can't see why anyone would use a laser when the risks are just not worth it, when a simple RDF will do the job if you feel it necessary. I use a Pentax 20x60 binocular on a monopod, sometimes a tripod. These have a narrow fov of 2.2 degrees and without wishing to sound like a smarty pants (feel free to substitute any other expression you wish) I've found I can find my way around the sky with them without any finder. It surprised me a little when I first got them. Perhaps its just lucky me. I'm sorry if you are feeling a bit got at but contributors are only imparting what they responsibly feel is good advice.

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On 26/01/2017 at 21:42, 8spokes said:

I'll use it to align my binoculars to stars...it won't be a constant beam,just enough for my target...the chances of me hitting a pilot is pretty slim and my attitude is kind of like..."they don't own the sky!" ...sort of thing. ?

What an idiotic thing to say. I wonder if you say the same if you were on the plane whose pilot just got blinded?

Your the reason we have to have laws that insist that a cup of coffee has a "warning: may be hot" warning on it. 

Ant

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30 minutes ago, Ant said:

What an idiotic thing to say. I wonder if you say the same if you were on the plane whose pilot just got blinded?

Your the reason we have to have laws that insist that a cup of coffee has a "warning: may be hot" warning on it. 

Ant

no...the idiotic thing would actually be pointing at planes and people. You'd have to be a moron to even think that everyone is the same as the Ferrell kids that do such things.... I'm the reason for laws?? Calm down lad.

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49 minutes ago, Alfian said:

I live about 10 miles from Leeds/Bradford airport. Planes tend to come on approach from the south west of us, though it varies. Sometimes I would look out and see a star I didn't  recognise  low-ish on the horizon and it would be a "just a star" for a little while. Then it gets a little brighter, and you think that conditions might be improving, then of course one star becomes two stars (binary?!) and its quickly apparent that  this is a plane some miles off, still silent, but coming directly towards me. I'm a little wiser now regarding unexplained lights in the sky. No wonder this part of Yorkshire  is seen as the UFO capital of the north! 

With all the care in the world I just can't see why anyone would use a laser when the risks are just not worth it, when a simple RDF will do the job if you feel it necessary. I use a Pentax 20x60 binocular on a monopod, sometimes a tripod. These have a narrow fov of 2.2 degrees and without wishing to sound like a smarty pants (feel free to substitute any other expression you wish) I've found I can find my way around the sky with them without any finder. It surprised me a little when I first got them. Perhaps its just lucky me. I'm sorry if you are feeling a bit got at but contributors are only imparting what they responsibly feel is good advice.

I'm being called an idiot and being blamed for laws on health and safety by members... Some seem to believe that anyone who owns a laser will point it purposely at planes. Also, some seem to read comments in a way that makes them think I will be doing what I shouldn't. I understand risks and cost and wouldn't want to cause trouble for myself nore others.

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2 minutes ago, 8spokes said:

t makes them think I will be doing what I shouldn't. I understand risks and cost and wouldn't want to cause trouble for myself nore others.

Then don't attach a laser pointer to binoculars!

If handheld at an outreach event, then careful use is fine in my book. Attached to binoculars, you are far less likely to spot any nearby planes. No one is accusing you of deliberate misuse, but there are just too many planes around these days.

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1 minute ago, 8spokes said:

I know lol ?

My comment was actually in reference to you previous response to Ant. He has a little blue word underneath his name, and doesn't like being contradicted. It rarely ends well!

Take note of advice being given.

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Rigel zero power finders work very well indeed. Laser pointers are very useful for pointing out particular stars, asterisms and such at organised events when you are looking at the sky unaided, but dedicated finders work better for accurate pointing of optical equipment.

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it would seem to me as though I'm being dictated on what I should be doing. Only a few so far can see I'm just having a bit of fun with what I can afford and that I have no intention of blinding pilots...I've been called an idiot by people who know nothing about me. I came here for the help finding things I haven't seen yet in the sky and I get abused. Not the sort of thing I expected.

 

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1 minute ago, RikM said:

Rigel zero power finders work very well indeed. Laser pointers are very useful for pointing out particular stars, asterisms and such at organised events when you are looking at the sky unaided, but dedicated finders work better for accurate pointing of optical equipment.

well said.

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10 minutes ago, Stu said:

My comment was actually in reference to you previous response to Ant. He has a little blue word underneath his name, and doesn't like being contradicted. It rarely ends well!

Take note of advice being given.

yep...don't argue with a moderator! They don't like to lose. (Not that I was arguing.) ?

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1 hour ago, 8spokes said:

it would seem to me as though I'm being dictated on what I should be doing. Only a few so far can see I'm just having a bit of fun with what I can afford and that I have no intention of blinding pilots...I've been called an idiot by people who know nothing about me. I came here for the help finding things I haven't seen yet in the sky and I get abused. Not the sort of thing I expected.

 

To repeat, you are being given good advice about not attaching laser pointers to binoculars but are rejecting the advice.

Rik was actually suggesting that you should use a Rigel finder rather than a laser pointer, and yet you say 'well said' to that. It is unclear what you think at this point.

Having fun with limited kit is fine. A laser pointer is not top of a new starters required kit, so perhaps just use the binoculars as they were intended and stop making such a big deal of it.

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Moderators are here to keep this forum amenable to all, and that include family members, many whom have children.
That is why we are zealous in the protection of all members. We do not engage in argument, everyone is entitle to voice their opinion,
as long as they do so in a polite and sensible way. We can even laugh at jokes here, but in the main, we like to perceive SGL as a learning centre for those 
who wish to learn. Any puerile tripe can be voiced in the Lounge, as long as it doesn't contravene the forums Code Of Conduct, which is required to be read
by all who register here. Reading it can save some from inadvertently getting into hot water, and possibly losing their membership, if there are really very naughty Boys or Girls.
Some arrive here thinking they are going to be "Jack the Lads", in an attempt to win popularity. That, without a doubt, does not work. They either conform, or Ship Out.

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4 hours ago, 8spokes said:

I get what you're saying... But if I can see satellites then I can see planes... Which means I won't be using it if there's a plane. I'm not an idiot, as most people seem believe.

Well you must have excellent eyes. Our planes are dark blue from the waist down, can you really claim to see these at night above 10k? 

As for not being an idiot we only have your word on that. You behaviour and attitude in this thread does not appear to reflect this statement. 

If you really need help with your astronomy there are plenty of people here in this community prepared to help you, you just have to ask. 

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4 hours ago, 8spokes said:

But if I can see satellites then I can see planes...

That is quite simply incorrect. Consider the geometry:  You see orbiting satellites when, and only when, they reflect sunlight. Aeroplanes fly at a much lower altitude than satellites orbit, so that they are only likely to reflect sunlight when the Sun is below the horizon if both of two conditions apply: (a) the Sun is only just below the horizon and (b) the aeroplane is just above that horizon. Unless an aeroplane has lights or is so low that it occults a large patch of starlit sky, your probability of spotting it is indistinguishable from zero.

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1 hour ago, BinocularSky said:

I was unaware of that; thanks. Looks like we need to review our laser RA and policies.

Yes Steve it’s worth a thought. For non GA,  typically on take off jets will be lit up like a Xmas tree. So the wing navigation outer marker lights in strobe mode or the strobes may be separate units, the front facing nose wheel light, front facing runway turn off lights, and some aircraft will have a main landing light on as well. On the tail there is a simple white light and the tail logo light. In addition an aircraft will have an upper and lower red anti collision light which are always on if the engines are running.

 

Shortly after rotation the runway turn offs, nose wheel light will be extinguished, and on A3xx the logo goes off automatically. Approaching 10k the front mains and strobes are switched off and logo if still on. So now it is only basic lighting being the red/green outer static wing lights, the white tail light and of course the anti cols. That is incredibly hard to see once above 10k (about 2 miles) and in cruise at 36k impossible.  Some refer to those lights as nav lights but whatever the term the plane is effectively invisible at those heights but well within reach of a laser. Perhaps the only reason those high flying aircraft are not targeted is because the laser users cannot see them plus the increased speed.

 

Other things to consider aircraft comply with a speed limit of maximum 250k under 10k flight level usually to do with the departure noise abatement and the SID routes they use to join the main airways and with a similar routine on approach STARS it is not uncommon for aircrew to get below the 10k level at less than 250 knots and not activate the lighting immediately, workload can sometimes delay the routine so there is a real possibility a slow moving aircraft at low level can still be visibly hard to spot. The laser attacks tend to happen on the low flying aircraft when the crew workload is at its most intense. Most are flying manually at this point, certainly our crews are manual at 2,500 on approach unless the visibility restricts them seeing the runway, or another reason to autoland.

 

In all honesty laser use should be curbed entirely for astronomy. Just because you cannot see it does not mean it is not there!

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The fact remains that there are valid concerns over the mis-use of laser-pointers particularly where aircraft are concerned.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37171810 as reported in that BBC article pilots can become fixated on bright lights (probably because when flying at night they are running on very dark adjusted eye-sight and just as an astronomers night vision can be destroyed by a sudden bright light I imagine the brain must tune into a bright red laser dot with similarly distracting effects for pilots in an aircraft).  It has been discussed above that high flying aircraft can be difficult to be aware of from the ground.  I would have thought these two facts would be sufficient reason for any conscientious astronomer to actively avoid the use of a upward pointing laser if suitable alternatives were to be available.  To my mind it seems somewhat irresponsible to use a laser as a star pointer if there is no real need to do so.  This threat to aircraft whether lasers hitting them are intentional or otherwise must be real otherwise so much fuss would not be being made, surely any responsible astronomer wouldn't use a laser these days if an alternative existed.  This to my mind would just demonstrate good practice if nothing else and I hope the OP decides not to use one.

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Aircraft switch off all navigation lights at ten thousand feet 

Is that correct?

Just having flown across the Atlantic many times, on the West-East leg it is usually a bit of a night flight and the navigation lights are going all the time. And they are up at 50,000 ft.

Also the rules say they are for other aircraft to be able to see you, not your navigation, if off them they are in violation of that.

Just aviation rules are somewhat strict and the idea of lets switch off the navigation light so we cannot be seen would appear somewhat contradictory.

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36 minutes ago, ronin said:

 

 

Is that correct?

Just having flown across the Atlantic many times, on the West-East leg it is usually a bit of a night flight and the navigation lights are going all the time. And they are up at 50,000 ft.

Also the rules say they are for other aircraft to be able to see you, not your navigation, if off them they are in violation of that.

Just aviation rules are somewhat strict and the idea of lets switch off the navigation light so we cannot be seen would appear somewhat contradictory.

50,000, feet which aircraft?  

Crew can switch lights on for weather or for other traffic reasons but most operators will have the strobes off. Except the anti cols. Also different regions have different rules as do operators. I was only referring to UK where above 10 k only the outer marker lights will be on in normal ops. 

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46 minutes ago, ronin said:

 

 

Is that correct?

Just having flown across the Atlantic many times, on the West-East leg it is usually a bit of a night flight and the navigation lights are going all the time. And they are up at 50,000 ft.

Also the rules say they are for other aircraft to be able to see you, not your navigation, if off them they are in violation of that.

Just aviation rules are somewhat strict and the idea of lets switch off the navigation light so we cannot be seen would appear somewhat contradictory.

I would also doubt this assertion; landing and possibly strobe lights may be turned off, but navigation lights are surely compulsory at all times - the principle of see and be seen?

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