If one more person

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I have one or two friends who believe in astrology and mystic harmonies of various crystals (generally cheap mine waste being passed off as something valuable).

I don't believe any of that, but that is typical for an Aquarius

 

[symesie04]

12 hours ago, JOC said:

So you actually think there are people out there who whole-heartedly believe in astrology?  I can honestly say I have never met anyone who has indicated to me that they do.  I tend to look upon astrology as a bit of fun, written to be broad enough to always find a way of being applied to someone's life if they think about long enough.  To give a starting chat up line if one is needed.  Of course its all tosh, yet I bet most folk know their zodiacal constellation of birth and possibly their Chinese animal.  They are just those bits of knowledge you seem to acquire.  In common with most people I actually fit the common traits normally associated with my star sign, but its all cleverly done so that everone can see the positive traits in their descriptions and associate themselves with said positive attribute.  It's human nature to find a way of applying good things to yourselve esp. if you are told you should demonstrate them.  I find the same with my Chinese star sign.  Its all cleverly done to work that way.  I am also sure that it was just the one chance in 12 that my ex. was the Chinese starsign said to be most incompatible with mine.  Those are good odds to win on, but folks never look at things like that.  No, I don't think  folks believe in horoscopes Surely they are just read for fun.

Sadly yes i think a lot of people actually believe in it, they may not admit it openly but their belief is certainly more than a "bit of fun". Many people still read their horoscopes everyday. Many community and dating websites still make a point of asking your star sign and tragically many people will select the partners based on star sign compatibility. So although most people wont engage in the finer details (i cant do that because blah blah has entered blah blah) many still feel resonance with astrology that is most definitely stronger than "a bit of fun".  

[ollypenrice]

People say they believe in all sorts of things but it is not the same kind of belief as the belief that it will hurt like hell if you belt your thumb with a hammer. Put your left thumb on a workbench, raise a hammer in your right hand, and meet belief!

lly

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

2 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

People say they believe in all sorts of things but it is not the same kind of belief as the belief that it will hurt like hell if you belt your thumb with a hammer. Put your left thumb on a workbench, raise a hammer in your right hand, and meet belief!

lly

That is not belief, that is knowledge! Very, very different beast entirely

[ollypenrice]

Just now, michael.h.f.wilkinson said:

That is not belief, that is knowledge! Very, very different beast entirely

You cannot know that it will hurt. You can only know that it hurt in the past when you did something similar. You can and do believe that it will hurt, though. And I believe () that those who claim to believe in astrology do not believe in it in the same way as they believe in the thumb-hammer scenario.

Olly

[johnfosteruk]

9 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

that those who claim to believe in astrology do not believe in it in the same way as they believe in the thumb-hammer scenario.

Olly

Of course not, because your previous experience informs your belief. I think those who claim to believe in astrology have that same process happening but their understanding of cause and effect is shall we say quite up to par so they're not assessing things the same way you or I would.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

1 hour ago, ollypenrice said:

You cannot know that it will hurt. You can only know that it hurt in the past when you did something similar. You can and do believe that it will hurt, though. And I believe () that those who claim to believe in astrology do not believe in it in the same way as they believe in the thumb-hammer scenario.

Olly

Not really: I don't just have past experience (which itself is prior knowledge: stored observations), I also have understanding of the neural pathways involved in pain. Knowledge is not the same as belief, which is based on some "just so story", preferably an ancient one (as in the case of astrology), rather than something that might be updated as observations are accumulated.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

BTW, I know a hammerblow to the thumb will hurt, just as you and I know I can find the Great Orion Nebula southwards of the group of stars known as Orion's Belt

[NigeB]

Interesting thread. I have a couple of project students who are working on stratospheric balloon experiments. Earlier this month the local news ran an item on their last flight and showed footage which included the Earth's limb. The students are now getting aggressive rant messages from the Flat Earth Society accusing them of perpetuating the myth of a curved Earth.

I used to get wound up over astrology and other issues of this sort, but my view now, is that it's not worth raising your blood pressure and shortening your life. In most cases, no amount of reasoning will change such views, which are usually held not because the person has a specific objection to an aspect of the science, but because the orthodoxy is incompatible with their personal beliefs (and I think that, for example, conspiracy theories fall into the category of a belief system.)

That's not to say you shouldn't engage in discussion -  just that in many (most?) cases the person you're talking to isn't genuinely interested in understanding the topic; they're typically not open to reviewing their ideas and reflecting on their position - it's all about being able to continue to hold that belief, by constructing flawed arguments that allow them to dismiss anything which threatens it. Hence the existence of "zombie arguments" - objections which have been decisively dealt with, but which keep on coming back into the conversation. Science on the other hand depends on the process of challenging, testing, refinement or even complete scrapping and re-building. Though even in science, dogmatism rears its head, and objectivity can go out of the window in some cases. But science is self-regulating, and the truth always comes out. Eventually.

So these days I try to view the astrologers and the flat-earthers as entertainment rather than a source of annoyance. The problems really start when bunk gains traction and is given equal time and weight in the education system.

Nigel

 

 

 

[JOC]

This gets more interesting, but I think we should be very careful.  I note SGL is very keen on applying its, quite fair (IMO), rules against certain subjects of discussion and if we want to see this thread through I think we should try to keep its course on-topic and neutral.

[LukeSkywatcher]

2 hours ago, michael.h.f.wilkinson said:

That is not belief, that is knowledge! Very, very different beast entirely

I'd call it stupidity. Dont try that at home kids. It WILL hurt.

[cloudsweeper]

ANYWAY.......to get back on track, what gets my goat is when a neighbour who knows you do astronomy installs a permanent (not just a security, IR-triggered) light in their garden.

Aaaaarrgh!

Doug.

[Davey-T]

14 minutes ago, cloudsweeper said:

ANYWAY.......to get back on track, what gets my goat is when a neighbour who knows you do astronomy installs a permanent (not just a security, IR-triggered) light in their garden.

Aaaaarrgh!

Doug.

Mine too, he's lived there on his own for over 15 years but his girlfriend and three children, 2 cats and a dog moved in at Christmas and they've had a 500 watt halogen security light fitted, goes on every time a dog or cat comes out the cat flap.

Dave

[Peter Drew]

I believe Australia exists. Not because I've been there and seen it, it's because of the overwhelming "third party" evidence that it does. I don't see a similar level for the other topics dissed in this thread.   

[ollypenrice]

34 minutes ago, Peter Drew said:

I believe Australia exists. Not because I've been there and seen it, it's because of the overwhelming "third party" evidence that it does. I don't see a similar level for the other topics dissed in this thread.   

And they sometimes beat us at cricket. You could hardly be beaten by a team which didn't exist...

Olly

[SilverAstro]

26 minutes ago, Peter Drew said:

I don't see a similar level for the other topics dissed in this thread.   

Shirly 'ology must exist and be of value given the number of people who pay it some attention ?

I mean : I have made some posts about R CrB on an astro forum and got just a couple of replies, on that evidence and after looking for it last night I believe it to be of little value, indeed it may not even exist.

However this topic is now into its 5th page so it must be important ?

So I am beginning to think that I should pay 'ology some attention - can anyone suggest where I should begin, what equipment would be good to start with, any books on the subject.

I think I have heard about "Make Every Phantom Count", is that a good one and maybe a beginners Crystal Ball, what dia. would be good to start with ? Is a simple spheroid adequate or is there a better figure to be polished ?

 

[laser_jock99]

On 17/01/2017 at 20:31, johnfosteruk said:

What gets your goat people?

Telling someone you like astronomy.......and then having to allow them a minute or so to get the variation on 'have you looked at Uranus' type joke out of their mouth first.

[johnfosteruk]

2 minutes ago, laser_jock99 said:

Telling someone you like astronomy.......and then having to allow them a minute or so to get all the 'have you looked at Uranus' type out of their system first.

That's a particular favourite of mine too and if you give them a 'how immature' look they complain that you need to 'lighten up' They don't like it when you do similar about their football though

I'm not bitter and twisted, just saying!

[johnfosteruk]

4 hours ago, cloudsweeper said:

ANYWAY.......to get back on track, what gets my goat is when a neighbour who knows you do astronomy installs a permanent (not just a security, IR-triggered) light in their garden.

Aaaaarrgh!

Doug.

Or when you're out somewhere dark in the middle of nowhere and just as you get adapted someone rides by on their bike with a 500MW lamp on the front. WHERE WERE THEY GOING for goodness sake. Miles from anywhere.

[Stub Mandrel]

I have sympathy for the misunderstood Chemist and the Physicist. I trained as a biologist/ecologist and I get taold I'm not a scientist because I don't wear a white coat (well used to, but it had a multicoloured Ra symbol on the back and my mate's had 'Dr. Technical' but let's not go there....

Now I'm a Charted Environmentalist, which seems to mean I can knit my own sandals and subsist on a diet of yak-milk and gravel whilst playing the role of Cassandra...

Astrology... don't forget that up to a few hundred years ago ALL the major cycles of your life were ruled and measured by the movements of the stars and the moon. Was it really so strange that special significance was ascribed to the movements of those stars that didn't follow the rules (such as foreboding a change of the status quo that would last almost a thousand years (from 1066)).

We rational folks might know astrology is bunkum, but there is more than a little truth at its core which I think explains its persistence. Look at the 28-day link between the Moon's phases and the human menstrual cycle. Is it a coincidence or not? regardless, it must give a significant chunk of the population the feeling that their lives are intimately connected to, if not ruled by, the heavens.

[Pig]

31 minutes ago, johnfosteruk said:

Or when you're out somewhere dark in the middle of nowhere and just as you get adapted someone rides by on their bike with a 500MW lamp on the front. WHERE WERE THEY GOING for goodness sake. Miles from anywhere.

On the flip side  The guy on the bike is probably thinking the same !!! Only he is wondering who is that nutter stood in the middle of a field looking through a white pipe that is pointing at the sky ........miles from anywhere 

[northward]

I think if people looked up anchoring heuristics, a lot more would make sense. 

 

 

It really gets my goat when new members on this forum butt into conversations and ask about how to do some astronomy......sheeeeesh! ? ?

[JOC]

I guess one positive to come out of astrology is that it must be yet another sub-section of the population who take the time to look up, learn a constellation or three, and must, in the process, admire nature's best effort.  So many folks walk around with their noses in computers these days that I bet there are loads who have never admired the night sky or smelled a flower.

[bejay1957]

1 hour ago, Pig said:

On the flip side  The guy on the bike is probably thinking the same !!! Only he is wondering who is that nutter stood in the middle of a field looking through a white pipe that is pointing at the sky ........miles from anywhere 

Now theres a tale...

Many years back a friend and I were doing a skywatch by the Ridgeway near Compton.  I wandered down the Ridgeway and came across some white plastic piping by the adjacent gallops (like the fencing at race tracks), and it just happened to fit nicely to the end of my maglite torch - it illuminated like a lightsabre  I walked back up the track, but couldn't see James, not realizing he'd got into his car to have a coffee, I fired up my sabre as I was close to the cars - James started his car and was driving off before he realised it was me. Safe to say I spooked him, but he saw the long 'stick' and assumed it was blind man out for a midnight stroll!

[SilverAstro]

4 hours ago, JOC said:

I guess one positive to come out of astrology is that it must be yet another sub-section of the population who take the time to look up, learn a constellation or three, and must, in the process, admire nature's best effort.

Do astrologers in general look up or do most of them just turn to the horoscope of the day page in magazine/paper of choice ?

Let it not be said that I have a closed mind, (!) ,  in a spirit of adventure/investigation I looked at an astrological site ( now look what you have done !!! ) for Jupiter (having just seen it and the moon whilst looking for R CrB and got frostbite for my troubles ) and it said (amongst some mumbo jumbo) :-

Jupiter in Virgo     August 11, 2015     September 9, 2016
Jupiter in Libra     September 10, 2016     October 10, 2017

http://www.drstandley.com/astrologycharts_jupiter_moving_through_the_signs_calendar.shtml

well if they do look up I think they will be confused cos I rekon it be 20Jan'17 and Jupiter is (I believe! ) still plonk in middle of Virgo at the moment next door to Spica, what is going on ?