Neximage Burst Colour

[noah4x4]

I have some great kit. My visual astronomy is a delight; with precise alignments; spot on GoTos, excellent Alt-Az tracking and focus. Collimation is fine. I have absolutely no "visual" difficulty other than the usual nuisances like clouds and a bit of urban light pollution. But my Celestron NexImage Burst Colour camera is driving me nuts. This camera was rated 5 star by Sky at Night magazine. Any helpful advice is welcome!

I have achieved a half decent image of about 25% of the Moon. Here, I do realise that I need a focal reducer to capture a wider FOV (or stitch images together). But my efforts on Planets (n.b. I have tried them all) are just pants; never more than bright blobs (albeit Saturn had its ringed shape).  

I realise that Mars, Uranus and Neptune in 'average' seeing will be merely blobs of light without detail, but via the camera (n.b. colour version) I see zero colour, just bright white light. Yet via an EP in the same conditions I can see their red; green & blue respectively. In the same 'seeing conditions' I can detect visual detail of Jupiter and Saturn via (say) my 12mm Televue Delos, but my camera picks up only white light. It seems as if I am unable to attain focus (in I-Cap) via my camera, yet isn't its CMOS (note it is not CCD) supposed to be more sensitive than the human eye?  I have tried via my Williams diagonal and directly in the Evo's visual back with similar poor results. Do note that I have a Feathertouch MicroFocuser that brings these objects as close to focus as I can achieve, and before the extremes of its travel. Views via my EP's are usually excellent, and I have tried using a Batinov mask, got the desired shape on screen etc.

I realise this is a solar system imager; but I did manage to get the distinctly identifiable four Trapezium  stars at the centre of the Orion Nebula on (I-Cap) screen, but merely as fuzzy blobs that (as a cluster) filled my FOV.  I mention this because that perhaps suggests my native focal length with camera is perhaps equivalent to viewing these through an EP at about 300x magnification, which in my typical seeing conditions would  definitely challenge my scope. But for planets isn't a 2x Barlow normally suggested rather than a focal reducer? I just don't understand? Have I got a duff camera device? 

In daylight, I have tried focussing my camera (in I-Cap) on a chimney pot around 200 yards away with some better success. The image there is similar to that via a 12mm Delos (169x). The entire chimney pot fills my FOV or I-Cap screen. Here, I can get sharp focus via the EP, but not via the camera.  I suspect this object is too close, but I mention as I can at least see a colour image. But at night the Moon has been the limit of my success.

I am well accustomed to user error and the limitation of seeing conditions,  but this camera is claimed to produce decent images of planets even in urban skies; and my views via an EP are good.  So I am stumped. Any constructive assistance is welcome... thanks.

 

 

[noah4x4]

I am a bit surprised that nobody has come to my assistance after almost 24 hours, but I have made some progress. Have managed to capture some moss on a roof tile about 0.25kms away; but without the said description it might easily be mistaken for some celestial phenomena if I had cropped it further.  Currently 100% cloud, so no chance of imaging anything more distant!

The primary image in I-Cap embraced about six roof tiles and is similar to that viewed in a 12mm Televue  Delos that offers 169x magnification in my scope, and was the product of simply inserting the Neximage Burst Colour camera into the visual back of my Evolution 8. The final result follows the subsequent processing (I-Cap/Registax) of a pretty small 'region of interest'.  It is this step that seems to have improved my result; hence reducing the camera FOV; increasing frame rate etc. The instruction manual is typical of Celestron  (limited). Could do with a "tips" and FAQ section. Again, I am surprised that there is so little posted in SGL.

But evidently the combination of my aperture; focal length of OTA and camera is generating fairly high magnification, which I suspect might possibly have been at the upper end of reasonableness given the rather poor seeing conditions during my recent attempts on Jupiter etc. I certainly could not have gone any higher with an EP and understand why limiting the camera to a smaller ROI offers benefits if one has a reasonably large aperture and focal length. I can also see why people often suggest within these threads to limit any Barlow to 2x with these types of camera. Now I just need a clear night with good seeing to practice more. Maybe there will be one before the camera warranty runs out!

[Davey-T]

Sorry no one has replied Noah, guess we get spoiled on SGL, I posted a query on CN and didn't get a reply for a month 

Not a very common camera either I don't think so may not be many folk using them.

Planets on screen when videoing are indeed fuzzy bouncy blobs whereas your eye can pick out details.

Focusing can be tricky as well on planets, I use a 10"SCT plus 2X Powermate so you should be OK without barlow.

Only using mono camera so can't comment on the colour issue.

Dave

[noah4x4]

1 hour ago, Davey-T said:

..........

Planets on screen when videoing are indeed fuzzy bouncy blobs whereas your eye can pick out details.

Dave

Really Dave?  It is this that is perhaps confusing me!

Firstly take my CCTV. I get crystal clear images on screen from four (PAL) security cameras each costing merely £50. At night, their infra-red mode kicks in so they pick up stuff that the human eye doesn't. But point them at the skies; absolutely useless. I realise this is about focal length and light capture etc.

By comparison, now take my £299 Neximage Burst Colour camera. Best I have got on screen for Jupiter or Saturn is indeed "fuzzy bouncing blobs" yet through a 169x magnification EP I see reasonable detail. Are you saying that is perfectly normal and the alignment & stacking process will resolve the detail? I was always under the illusion that the CMOS in my camera was more sensitive than the human eye yet your suggestion seems to contradict that. To be frank, I have never completed the stacking process for a planet as with mere white blobs of light it seemed pointless. So now I have learned about limiting FOV, I will go further. If we ever get a clear night!

[michael8554]

Hi Noah,

The Neximage will see things as they really are - blurred, bouncing, desaturated planets, due to atmospherics.

The human brain and eye are amazing, they will integrate that rubbish into a technicolor dream.

Your stacking software should select the random clean frames and discard the rest. When stacked and tweaked in PhotoShop etc you should get pleasing results.

Michael

[newbie alert]

I use a skyris in mono..you are never going to have an image on the screen as clear as a eyepeice,as the atmospheric conditions will be enhanced on the screen..think about what sized ep you would need to replicate the image on the screen...and then what would you see..the idea of happy imaging is to stack maybe 1000 frames..discard the bad frames and get a cleaner image..in the uk we get lp,jet stream and bad atmospherics to get amazing images..look at christopher go,damien peach images..they all shot abroad where the atmosphere is more stable and cleaner..as well as knowing what theyre doing which helps abit!

ROI helps cut done the file size and can increase the fps..skyris uses icap too..imsure its the same..are you using registax or windupos ?

[noah4x4]

2 hours ago, newbie alert said:

ROI helps cut done the file size and can increase the fps..skyris uses icap too..imsure its the same..are you using registax or windupos ?

Thanks to you guys I believe that I have now worked this out.

It is a question of limiting ROI; increasing fps; understanding focus and using I-Cap and Registax correctly (usual story; Celestron has supplied an awful instruction manual).

But there is a lot of confusing nonsense written about these cameras "being more sensitiive than the NAKED human eye"; which is inevitably true over 8 AU. However, the truth is that with the aid of a decent EP the human eye/brain will interpret the image so much better. Hence the need for Registax processing. It all starts to make far more sense once that is fully understood.  We almost need a 'Turn left at Orion' type publication showing what to expect on screen before and after 'stacking' (I guess there is one....?).

Frankly, I stopped when all I had captured on I-Cap video was a "fuzzy bouncing blob".  I had expected to see at least some minimal detail (e.g. such as some banding on Jupiter). I always knew that some alignment and stacking was required, but was so accustomed to clear views via my CCTV that I underestimated the need for further software processing; yet I guess that was logical given that if I point my (PAL) CCTV security cameras to the skies I don't see anything.

But is there a inexpensive (or even expensive) camera that does deliver higher quality 'live' astronomy video to a PC screen? 

 

[newbie alert]

All mono cameras are more sensitive than a colour as it designates a colour to every pixel rather than every 4 ..also resolution makes a difference..

You must understand that your seeing conditions make a huge difference..look at some registax demos on u tube ,some of their rgb channels are unbelievable..their blue image is better than ive ever got with my red...

Ive not planetary imaged for a while and boy am i rusty!!

[newbie alert]

You should see some sort of bands on jupiter..are you using the sliders?gain,exposure and brightness..if its the same as mine unclick the boxes and you can adjust them manually..white light has no value other than white..its best to slightly under expose than over..

[Knight of Clear Skies]

Regarding cameras vs the human eye, the main advantage of cameras comes from their ability to take long exposures rather than greatly improved sensitivity. In real time, I'd expect the eye to beat a colour camera where the bayer matrix blocks much of the incoming light, but possibly not a good mono camera. Another major difference between the two is that a camera system produces sharp images across the entire field of view, whereas the eye only sharp in the middle. What the eye and the brain see are quite different.

Here's an example frame of Mars (one of the better ones) at 6m focal length and a DSLR. Like you, when I saw this dancing away on my screen I had no idea whether I'd be able to get an image out of it. 

And here's the result of stacking a load of frames like this.

If you're shooting Jupiter it has a higher surface brightness than the Moon, so it's possible you're over-exposing. As newbie says, it shouldn't be difficult to pick out the two main cloud bands.

Hope that's some help and good luck. If you can take decent pictures of the Moon there is no reason you can't shoot the planets as well, although you will probably want to use a 2x or perhaps even a 3x barlow to get the best results, depending on how good the seeing is.

[Davey-T]

3 hours ago, noah4x4 said:

But is there a inexpensive (or even expensive) camera that does deliver higher quality 'live' astronomy video to a PC screen? 

 

There are colour video cameras that stack images on the fly and show them on screen, I've got a Minitron but there are others, as in most things the more you pay the better the result.

Dave

[DMB]

I have the same camera and have used it with a Skywatcher 127 Mak a couple of times on an Alt Az goto. There are some images of Jupiter, Saturn and Mars that I made last year with this set up on my page I think, but these are very much first attempts and I'm sure the camera/software is capable of better - I have seen the 5 star review too ! I found that a lot comes down to understanding the iCap software and Registax and although I have a lot more to learn I found this video (and others in the series by the same bloke) really usefull at first - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwIriJ_6epQ

Good luck with the camera, I will be trying to improve with mine again soon.

Dave

[mikeonnet]

Hi Noah4x4.

I also use the same camera, either planetary imaging or using it as a guide camera for Deep sky imaging. I think the main issue you have is overexposure when you just see planets as white blobs. Untick the Gain and slide it right down. For Venus for instance, I have found that even on the lowest gain setting (34), it is still over exposed and I have to untick the exposure option also and reduce this to something like 1/250th of a second exposures. For Uranus, I have had to have the gain maxed out at 2047 and set the exposure times to something around 1/8th second exposures in iCap.

I find the hardest part is to actually get the object in the frame to start with as like you say, the FOV is so narrow, if the target is not dead centre, it doesn't appear in icap.

My process is once I've aligned the mount using a 3-star alignment and navigated to the target and making sure it is dead centre of the frame. I remove the eyepiece with the camera and within iCap I have Full gain on at this stage. I then slowly turn the focus until it comes into view on the screen and try to get the "white blob" as small as possible. I then reduce the Gain, set the icap zoom to x200 or even x400 to try and get the focus as tight as possible along with adjusting the gain so it's not too dark or too bright.

Finally, I reduce the icap zoom back to 100% and then use the ROI (Region of interest) and draw a box around the planet (allowing for some room around the planet) for wobbles & tracking issues. By using the ROI you will capture many more frames per second and I finally enter how many frames or minutes to capture. I generally go for 1,500 frames and then within Registax, I set it to 10% best frames and stack.

Although you should see some detail with the "live view" on Jupiter for instance (providing the Gain is turned down), the stacking process is what will bring out the detail using the wavelets feature. I have attached a picture of Jupiter as an example of what you can expect from this exact camera.

 

I hope this helps.

Mike

[JamesF]

I've just responded to your PM about this, Noah.  Apologies for the delay in replying.  It was a swimming weekend last weekend and there's inevitably loads to catch up with afterwards which takes a while.  If you have other questions by all means ask here.

I think I'd probably recommend using FireCapture or SharpCap if they recognise the camera.  I think they have far more features that will be useful to you, though the learning curve can be fairly steep.

James

[noah4x4]

Thanks everybody. What I didn't initially discover were the hidden controls like 'gain' and 'exposure' that only appear in I-Cap if you "add" their toolbar. I have also watched a couple of U-Tube videos and now it all makes sense. I have had a play with these tools and am now ready to proceed when the clouds break and I am up early enough to catch Jupiter.

To be fair the instruction manual does make reference to adjusting gain and exposure, but the diagrams and print description is so small that it is unreadable. I was trying to move other sliders that don't move. Yet again a shocking example of a poorly written Celestron manual. But I think I am there now.

[AstroKane]

On 1/17/2017 at 23:57, noah4x4 said:

Thanks everybody. What I didn't initially discover were the hidden controls like 'gain' and 'exposure' that only appear in I-Cap if you "add" their toolbar. I have also watched a couple of U-Tube videos and now it all makes sense. I have had a play with these tools and am now ready to proceed when the clouds break and I am up early enough to catch Jupiter.

To be fair the instruction manual does make reference to adjusting gain and exposure, but the diagrams and print description is so small that it is unreadable. I was trying to move other sliders that don't move. Yet again a shocking example of a poorly written Celestron manual. But I think I am there now.

I am thinking about getting this camera for my Edge HD 8' - would be keen to see if you managed to get any good results! I am just down the way from you in good ol' Essex

Cheers!

[noah4x4]

5 minutes ago, AstroKane said:

I am thinking about getting this camera for my Edge HD 8' - would be keen to see if you managed to get any good results! I am just down the way from you in good ol' Essex

Cheers!

Got some decent images of the moon, but never got much value from the planets.  Seeing conditions nearly alway disappointing etc. Hard work to improve via software etc. Hence, I would NOT recommend the NexImage Burst.  Save your money.

Instead, take a look at 'Camera Jungle' (owned by Jessops).  I bought a "used" (in 'as new' condition) Nikon D5200 body for about half RRP price. You don't need an expensive lens, as your telescope can fulfil that function. You just need an inexpensive adapter and T-Ring. It arrived next day and was in mint condition, still unwrapped in sealed original packaging!  12 month warranty etc. A decent DSLR will give you much more joy and you can take short or long exposures; and also 'video'.  A (used) DSLR 'body'  is a much better investment.

[newbie alert]

4 hours ago, noah4x4 said:

Got some decent images of the moon, but never got much value from the planets.  Seeing conditions nearly alway disappointing etc. Hard work to improve via software etc. Hence, I would NOT recommend the NexImage Burst.  Save your money.

Instead, take a look at 'Camera Jungle' (owned by Jessops).  I bought a "used" (in 'as new' condition) Nikon D5200 body for about half RRP price. You don't need an expensive lens, as your telescope can fulfil that function. You just need an inexpensive adapter and T-Ring. It arrived next day and was in mint condition, still unwrapped in sealed original packaging!  12 month warranty etc. A decent DSLR will give you much more joy and you can take short or long exposures; and also 'video'.  A (used) DSLR 'body'  is a much better investment.

For planets I'd totally disagree with that..even a full frame DSLR that costs thousands couldn't produce what a planetary camera can.. for dso yes I'd agree but not on planets..

If DSLR were the way forward then all the top imagers would use them..but they don't.. 

[noah4x4]

6 hours ago, newbie alert said:

For planets I'd totally disagree with that..even a full frame DSLR that costs thousands couldn't produce what a planetary camera can.. for dso yes I'd agree but not on planets..

If DSLR were the way forward then all the top imagers would use them..but they don't.. 

OK, you have inspired me to have another go with my NexStar Burst Camera (see below for tonight's half decent effort). But now that I have achieved reasonably good images of both Jupiter and Saturn (I nailed the latter a while back),  where does one go next with this particular camera?  Mars is truly difficult at the moment due to distance and the other planets are largely featureless blobs. The NexStar Burst camera is utterly useless as regards DSO's. 

However, using the 'record video' feature of my Nikon 5200 DSLR, I can produce similar images of planets and when using long exposures my Nikon can produce decent  images of DSO's (albeit that the light pollution near my home is awful). That is why I suggested a used DSLR from 'Camera Jungle' rather than a NexStar Burst if one DOESN'T want to spend £1,000 plus on a high end camera. I agree that the NexStar Burst is great for planets, but how many photos of Jupiter do people need?

 

[AstroKane]

I am at work atm so I cannot share my first attempt at Jupiter through my Canon 700D (rebel T5i). I can say though that it is no where near as good as the above. The image of Jupiter was tiny and had no where near the detail of the above - GREAT effort (with moons!)

The above effort has made me keen to invest in a camera for planetary - especially moon and Mars (next year). 

Thanks for responding! 

[noah4x4]

2 hours ago, AstroKane said:

I am at work atm so I cannot share my first attempt at Jupiter through my Canon 700D (rebel T5i). I can say though that it is no where near as good as the above. The image of Jupiter was tiny and had no where near the detail of the above - GREAT effort (with moons!)

The above effort has made me keen to invest in a camera for planetary - especially moon and Mars (next year). 

Thanks for responding! 

You don't say what scope? Aperture and optics obviously make a difference. My results were previously "nowhere near as good" with the Nexstar Burst (typically over exposed). But the comment by Newbie Alert made me determined to return to it and try again.

This time; I accurately polar aligned on a wedge. Tracking was excellent as the alignment points in Registax had negligible  movement after 2,000 frames. Jupiter was above the typical horizontal atmospheric 'soup'.  Last night I also attempted (the much closer to the horizon) Saturn and my result was embarrassing!  "Seeing" conditions are critical. I took 2000 frames; discarded most and stacked just 247. Then some minor tweaking with wavelets.

I find the hardest thing with a Nexstar Burst in an 8" SCT (when using I -Cap) is getting the planet into the centre of your computer screen. Here, I had to use a 9x50 RACI finderscope and illuminated reticle eyepiece and even then I struggled for a good few minutes. Focus is also challenging. I have a Feathertouch MicroFocuser and the focus difference between the view in a 25mm Plossl and for the camera is a significant number of focuser turns. Of course, while fiddling with focus, then with exposure,  gain etc, unless your set up and tracking is excellent the planet will simply drift from FOV.  I find it is not easy to set exposure and gain in I-Cap using a finger swipe laptop 'mouse'. You will know when you have this right as the image will appear quite sharp on your computer screen (most of my past efforts were over exposed). But unless tracking is perfect,  you are chasing your tail. 

Despite this good result with my Nexstar Burst (I enjoyed the  challenge having given up with it previously!), it just seems far easier to me to use my Nikon D5200 DSLR  and 'Backyard Nikon' (premium edition).  There is also a Canon EOS version. OK, it's  $50 to buy the software; but it's so much easier to control exposure; ISO and other critical parameters.  Also when done with taking and processing 'video' of Jupiter, Saturn and Mars (the rest are just coloured blobs) with your DSLR you then have the flexibility of long exposure manual mode for DSO's.  By contrast, the Celestron camera is useless for anything other than planets (albeit good for them).

Frankly, before shelling out £300 on a Nexstar Burst I suggest you persevere with your DSLR and (free)  trial Backyard EOS. Also try Digicamcontrol.com. 

 

[AstroKane]

Great food for thought...I have also been looking at the ZWO ASI120MC which has really good reviews and is also considerably cheaper.

My setup is  an Edge HD 8" on the Advanced VX mount. I am primarily into observing for the moment before I start an imaging rig, but cannot resist the temptation to snap some lunar and planetary work!

[noah4x4]

53 minutes ago, AstroKane said:

Great food for thought...I have also been looking at the ZWO ASI120MC which has really good reviews and is also considerably cheaper.

My setup is  an Edge HD 8" on the Advanced VX mount. I am primarily into observing for the moment before I start an imaging rig, but cannot resist the temptation to snap some lunar and planetary work!

Just a couple of extra thoughts;.... which might (or might not) assist!...

I have not seen the  ZWO ASI120MC which claims to handle both planetary and DSOs. Its BBC 'Sky at Night' review looks favourable.  http://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/review/camera/zwo-asi120mm-monochrome-camera . Hence, its dual potential (e.g. for both planets and DSO's) might suggest it is a better buy as an entry level camera  than the Neximage Burst (which I find is useless except for  planets).

However, the ZWO gets only a four star review and yet the Neximage Burst gets five stars. http://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/review/camera/celestron-neximage-burst-colour-camera. So there begs a few questions! I suspect that the cheaper ZWO is being compared against far more expensive multi-purpose CMOS cameras (so it got down rated to 4/5 in that grouping) when the Neximage Burst is being compared with ONLY the limited range of planetary only CMOS cameras (where it excels). My guess is that the Burst is probably the superior of the two on planets, but is it just a 'one trick pony' and the ZWO more versatile? I suspect "yes".

But the ZWO ASI120MC is monochrome when the Burst is colour. I have managed to extract a fair bit of 'colour' with both my Burst (e.g. on planets) and also with my Nikon D5200 (on DSO's). I can understand an expert astrophotographer buying a monochrome camera for DSO's; but is that what you really desire for planets? Is the Orion Nebula going to be as interesting in monochrome? I don't think monochrome is a good first purchase - albeit potentially very good when you truly know what you want from AP - but that isnt an easy direction to determine...

If you want to get deeper into AP you are probably going to eventually need a Celestron .7x focal reducer. The cost for an 8" Edge HD focal reducer is a staggering £289. Yet, for a standard 8 inch F/6.3 focal reducer it is merely £99, but that version does NOT fit an Edge HD tube.  The cost of properly getting into AP has been a real eyeopener for me. It is so easy to rack up serious expenditure (cameras; focal reducers; filters; auto-guiding etc). At least you have an AVX (GEM) mount. I went down the Evolution + Wedge route. Whilst I have mastered that tortuous route to (excellent!) polar alignment, my own route into AP has already cost me the price of a small car (mount; scope; StarSense; adding camera; adding wedge; RACI Finderscope; Reticle EP etc. etc); and yet I merely dabble with this dark art!

But looking back,  I already had a decent DSLR and ignored that to rush into buying the Neximage Burst. Then after (modest) snaps of Jupiter, Saturn and Mars the novelty of planetary imaging rather wore off.  One infrequently will return to the camera to try something new that one has read in here (as I did last night). It might also take a year of frustration as you master the infernal device (e.g. focusing; exposures; getting stuff into your FOV); but eventually one will produce a super wizzy picture of Saturn and Jupiter and then realise that the Burst (or any other NexImage)  is a 'one trick pony' and the next real lure is DSO's.  I hence do suspect that you would get better initial value out of the modest priced ZWO, but will the absence of colour soon frustrate you?

Frankly, what I wish I had done was started with only my EXISTING DSLR. That step would have cost me no more than a T-Ring and adapter. Then done more homework around software and processing rather than expensive replacement cameras. Hence used my existing DSLR to develop better understanding and basic skills. Hence, instead skip over the Neximage Burst (or cheaper ZWO) and LATER invested in a far higher quality CMOS camera costing perhaps £800 +; rather than having a limited Neximage Burst (or the cheaper ZWO) in my box hence rarely seeing the night of (er)...night. My box of accessories is full of stuff I have only ever used once! So my advice is persevere a bit longer with the DSLR until you really know where you want to go with AP.

 

 

[AstroKane]

It certainly is a minefield! My Edge is only for observation but at  F/10 I am tempted to do planetary, I do love imaging the moon and would like to capture the planets. The ZWO really does get a lot of praise across the board - I should'nt have been lazy and entered the full details: ZWO ASI120MC COLOUR 1/3" CMOS USB2.0 CAMERA WITH AUTOGUIDER PORT from https://www.tringastro.co.uk/zwo-asi120mc-colour-13-cmos-usb20-camera-with-autoguider-port-3635-p.asp - for £139.00 this looks ideal. For me I am not looking to get DSO's with this camera - purely planetary.

With regards to imaging DSO's - I have dabbled with my DSLR on an iOptron Sky Tracker and had relatively pleasing results (image below, taken last winter in my back garden) to the extent that I would continue imaging with the DSLR until I fall further down the rabbit hole. It sure is an expensive pursuit, but very addictive. I will not be getting the focal reducer for the Edge instead I am looking to pickup a Skywatcher Evostar 80ED on to my AVX and then setup auto guiding. I am only just into my second year of this great hobby so for the moment I will be content to observe with occasional planetary on the side.  My next big projects are to upgrade eyepieces and kit out my shed as my astro collection is slowly swallowing large chunks of space in the house!