Could this be Venus?

[Stu]

13 hours ago, JennyBull said:

WOW ❤

Just to state the hopefully obvious, you won't see the planets as in these simulations. They are small objects in the sky and even with a powerful telescope they do not appear very large in the eyepiece. The easier planets to see detail on are Jupiter and Saturn. Saturn is particularly beautiful with its ring structure easy to see, but is perhaps a little static in comparison with Jupiter with its ever changing atmosphere and moons which constantly orbit with different periods so appear in different positions and configurations every time you look, they move as you watch them for an extended period too.

Venus is tricky as it is very bright and generally low down. It often dances around in the atmosphere showing lots of false colour and is difficult to get a clear view. When you do though you can detect the different phases which are almost like the moon, going from almost full to a beautiful crescent.

These images from a software program show the position of Venus on its orbit around the Sun. On 12th Jan it is at max elongation as has been mentioned in this thread already. Here it shows half phase, then it starts its journey back 'towards' the sun in the sky and around March time will show a lovely crescent. You need to be very careful not to look at the sun with your scope so it is best to wait until it has set or block it behind a building before trying to find Venus at this stage.

[Mak the Night]

I saw cloud detail last year on Venus in a 130mm scope at around 150x. It was setting low in the west in twilight conditions. There again I live at 152 metres above sea level in the greenbelt with little light pollution. Venus was big enough for me to see a difference in its surface cloud, let alone seeing the phase.

It may have looked smaller than this (below) in the eyepiece but even with this phase it was still big enough to discern different colours (shades of green) in the surface clouds. What the human eye perceives at the eyepiece can't accurately be portrayed in scale with a software simulation.

Either way, I could obviously see cloud detail even at an altitude of 19.3°, azimuth 86.2° (Leo).

[Stu]

11 minutes ago, Mak the Night said:

I've seen cloud detail on Venus in a 130mm scope at 150x. It was setting low in the west in twilight conditions. There again I live at 152 metres above sea level in the greenbelt with little light pollution. Venus was big enough for me to see a difference in its surface cloud, let alone seeing the phase.

I'm know it's possible under good conditions, I was simply making the point that you do not see the size or level of detail shown in your simulations.

Light pollution plays no part, but a steady atmosphere/good seeing and probably transparency does. It's not something I've ever managed from here.

As a new starter, seeing the phase is  something quite achievable, seeing surface detail may have to wait a while.

[Mak the Night]

Well, I'm not Captain Obvious, but surface detail was fairly easy for me to see in virtual daylight/twilight conditions. As I said, I live at 152 metres above mean sea level in the greenbelt. I'm guessing some Venusian surface detail would be readily apparent in the same conditions, but as I've said, I'm not Captain Obvious.

[Stu]

16 minutes ago, Mak the Night said:

Well, I'm not Captain Obvious, but surface detail was fairly easy for me to see in virtual daylight/twilight conditions. As I said, I live at 152 metres above mean sea level in the greenbelt. I'm guessing some Venusian surface detail would be readily apparent in the same conditions, but as I've said, I'm not Captain Obvious.

Without taking away from the thread, let's just agree that a lot depends upon the conditions, plus observer experience.

As can be seen in these sketches by Paul Abel, who knows a thing or two, the surface detail is visible but subtle .

 

[Mak the Night]

Well, it's obvious aperture size is important in being able to discern Venusian cloud detail. I can't recall seeing any detail with a telescope less than 130mm. The detail I saw last year was subtle, but relatively obvious. That evening I even showed visiting relatives Jupiter and Venus through the telescope. None of them were astronomers but all of them saw cloud detail on Venus and even Jupiter's Great Red Spot. It stuck in my mind as they talked about the experience for a while after. So the Venusian cloud detail must have been obvious to them.

[Stu]

19 minutes ago, Mak the Night said:

Well, it's obvious aperture size is important in being able to discern Venusian cloud detail. I can't recall seeing any detail with a telescope less than 130mm. The detail I saw last year was subtle, but relatively obvious. That evening I even showed visiting relatives Jupiter and Venus through the telescope. None of them were astronomers but all of them saw cloud detail on Venus and even Jupiter's Great Red Spot. It stuck in my mind as they talked about the experience for a while after. So the Venusian cloud detail must have been obvious to them.

Mak, I really don't understand your constant need to have the last word. I am a very experienced observer of over 15 years, and under the conditions I observe have never seen this. I agree that it is perfectly achievable but conditions need to be right.

Aperture is not an issue either, MikeDnight produces very nice sketches of Venus with exactly the same 4" Tak that I use. He sees it, I don't. Conditions, that's the difference. 

[A budding astronomer]

Yes it is Venus. I'd you look top left of Venus you may see Mars and if you grab your telescope and point it at Mars you be able to see Neptune in close proximity tonight!

[Mak the Night]

I doubt I'd get the last word in anyway. Besides, this is in essence the pot calling the kettle black. All I'm saying is that I've never seen Venusian surface detail with a reflector less than 5". I've been observing for at least twenty years on and off. Probably more.

I have seen it regularly with scopes 5" and above though. There again, I live in a Bortle 2/3 area and people living near me claim the same thing. I used to live in an even less light polluted area. I do live at a relatively high altitude above sea level (152 metres).

I've never owned a refractor above 80mm, although I've owned slightly smaller refractor scopes in the past.

I do wonder why someone would consistently need to reiterate how long they've been observing or that they consider themselves 'very experienced' however. As that is surely a subjective definition.

As Captain Obvious would probably say.

[noeliam]

I took a look at Venus last evening and was quite disappointed as i thought i would see it as a full planet, however reading this thread i guess what i saw is what it is, a shakey half moon with various colours flitting around and quite hard to bring into focus, Being closer to Earth than Saturn i thought it would have looked better tbh. 

[Stu]

On 31/12/2016 at 12:59, Mak the Night said:

I doubt I'd get the last word in anyway. Besides, this is in essence the pot calling the kettle black. All I'm saying is that I've never seen Venusian surface detail with a reflector less than 5". I've been observing for at least twenty years on and off. Probably more.

I have seen it regularly with scopes 5" and above though. There again, I live in a Bortle 2/3 area and people living near me claim the same thing. I used to live in an even less light polluted area. I do live at a relatively high altitude above sea level (152 metres).

I've never owned a refractor above 80mm, although I've owned slightly smaller refractor scopes in the past.

I do wonder why someone would consistently need to reiterate how long they've been observing or that they consider themselves 'very experienced' however. As that is surely a subjective definition.

As Captain Obvious would probably say.

What you said was that it was obvious that aperture was important when it is not necessarily. Contrast is likely to be a significant factor, as well as the conditions.

You seem to consistently and deliberately miss my point. The point is that seeing surface detail on Venus is highly unlikely it be top of the list of things that a novice observer would try to see as it is quite likely to end in failure. You posted images from computer simulations which grossly exaggerate the likely views and are unhelpful.

I mention experience not to appear arrogant, actually it was to point out in the years I have been observing and gathering experience I have not managed to see this detail. Subjective you may think it, but objectively I am more experienced than someone who has just taken their first look through a scope in that I have experienced many more scopes, targets and situations than they have. It does not make me better in any way, just more experienced by definition, even you cannot argue with that. That is not to say a novice won't see surface detail on Venus, or that it is not possible to see, it is just stating the obvious that it is not necessarily a trivial target and that many city based observers dealing with poor seeing and city pollution (not LP) are likely to be better off looking for other targets first. Not everyone is lucky enough to have good seeing or to live at 152m above sea level.

I have not said it's not possible, nor have I doubted your reports, I'm simply stating what I believe to be a fairly commonly held experience.

[LukeSkywatcher]

I have to agree with Stu. I also have never seen any form of detail on Venus using any size scope. I'm not saying its impossible. I also agree that showing people simulated images isnt helpful.

Not that it matters, but ive been observing for 37 yrs.

[Stu]

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/283991-cloud-detail-on-venus/#comment-3109603

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/281961-venus-on-251116/

[LukeSkywatcher]

Simulated images just give false hope to many people. Its great you can make out detail on Venus. I'd love to be able to. The HST has a lot to answer for. Its been giving people false hope for years with its lovely coloured glossed hi-res images.

 

[JennyBull]

My hubby snapped me showing my daughter. The moon is in view and I'm hoping the other point of light is Venus as I've been telling everyone about it lol ?

[John]

Lovely photo

I have to agree with the points made about seeing detail on the cloudtops of Venus though. I've been observing it over 30 years with a wide range of equipment and in a wide range of conditions but I'm very sceptical of any details that I might see on the surface. I may have seen some very subtle variations in surface contrast occasionally but thats as far as I'm prepared to go !

 

 

[Stu]

4 hours ago, noeliam said:

I took a look at Venus last evening and was quite disappointed as i thought i would see it as a full planet, however reading this thread i guess what i saw is what it is, a shakey half moon with various colours flitting around and quite hard to bring into focus, Being closer to Earth than Saturn i thought it would have looked better tbh. 

To be honest, that's about the size of it most nights. This link shows a fairly normal view.

http://m.nakedeyeplanets.com/venus-telescope-ph-15-anim.htm

http://m.nakedeyeplanets.com/venus-telescope.htm

[Tim]

9 minutes ago, John said:

Lovely photo

I have to agree with the points made about seeing detail on the cloudtops of Venus though. I've been observing it over 30 years with a wide range of equipment and in a wide range of conditions but I'm very sceptical of any details that I might see on the surface. I may have seen some very subtle variations in surface contrast occasionally but thats as far as I'm prepared to go !

 

 

That's my take on this John. I would love to think I could get a bit of a hint of some surface shading, but dare not trust my eyes, knowing all too well that it is easy to convince yourself that there is more there.  It is one reason I like having the option of adding a camera, it doesn't lie and usually confirms that Venus is just a jumpy mess and i'm lucky to be able to make out the phase let alone the surface

Jenny, super photo. I love that you guys are loving your scope and the things you are finding. Enthusiasm is infectious so please keep sharing your reports, they are a delight to read.

Tim

[JennyBull]

37 minutes ago, Tim said:

That's my take on this John. I would love to think I could get a bit of a hint of some surface shading, but dare not trust my eyes, knowing all too well that it is easy to convince yourself that there is more there.  It is one reason I like having the option of adding a camera, it doesn't lie and usually confirms that Venus is just a jumpy mess and i'm lucky to be able to make out the phase let alone the surface

Jenny, super photo. I love that you guys are loving your scope and the things you are finding. Enthusiasm is infectious so please keep sharing your reports, they are a delight to read.

Tim

Ah thanks Tim! I'm a total beginner and have my 3 year old obsessed already. I want to teach her as much as I can about what is out there. I only wish I had taken more interest as a child then I would be an expert by now ?

[Tim]

17 minutes ago, JennyBull said:

 I'm a total beginner and have my 3 year old obsessed already.

This is totally excellent. Make the most of it while her mind is still a 'sponge', you will impart an education worth more than she will learn at school the whole time she is there, an appreciation for her surroundings, the world, the solar system, the galaxy, the universe....and that's a lot of appreciation

There are several great apps available to that offer really interesting visual impressions of the night sky, like those posted above. Kids love apps and learn without knowing it. I can't get mine interested in astronomy really, but when I had a mount that could be controlled by an app, and the app showed pictures of planets and awesome deep sky objects that they could then see through the eyepiece, even they were interested in using it

Mind you, they must have learned something, one night the youngest called out "Hey Dad, LOOK! It's Orion's belt!". Proud? You bet

 

Tim

[Stu]

2 hours ago, JennyBull said:

My hubby snapped me showing my daughter. The moon is in view and I'm hoping the other point of light is Venus as I've been telling everyone about it lol ?

Wonderful picture Jenny. You will have a great time learning the skies together, it is quite amazing what you can actually see with affordable kit these days. You won't forget the first time you see Jupiter or Saturn through a scope  

[barkis]

I saw Pete. Lawrence  demonstrate how Venus's light is able to cast a shadow here on earth, which was very interesting.
I'm sure many folks on SGL will also remember him doing that experiment.
Don't know about detail on the planet being visible. I have never see any, nor the claimed Ashen Light for that matter.
Apart from the phases the planet displays, I find it a dull sight in a telescope.  I'm sure  I may incur the wrath of some with that remark>

However, that is only my opinion, others are entitled to their's 

[rockystar]

lovely photo @JennyBull; I had my two (6 & 4) trying to see if they could spot Mars too. And then they wanted me to get the telescope to see if we could spot Neptune - I think it was a lucky guess that it was going to be visible though

[JennyBull]

6 minutes ago, rockystar said:

lovely photo @JennyBull; I had my two (6 & 4) trying to see if they could spot Mars too.

I'm not 100% but might have seen Mars.  It was a lot smaller and further away and could have been reddish in colour. It was to the left and up from Venus and there were no other stars that I could see. She was amazed, I'm so pleased she has an interest. She knows all the planets and talks about them a lot. She says " I love you to Venus and back, I love you to Saturn and back" lol and goes through all the planets ?

[rockystar]

1 minute ago, JennyBull said:

I'm not 100% but might have seen Mars.  It was a lot smaller and further away and could have been reddish in colour. It was to the left and up from Venus and there were no other stars that I could see. She was amazed, I'm so pleased she has an interest. She knows all the planets and talks about them a lot. She says " I love you to Venus and back, I love you to Saturn and back" lol and goes through all the planets ?

Yep, that would be the one, and twice the distance of Venus and The Moon.