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Permanent Pier - Questions about keeping dry


gnomus

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I built a pier just before Christmas.  I would like to get my CGEM permanently set up outside, polar aligned and all that.  I have a barbecue cover over the mount and the top part of the pier.  The telescopes live inside.

All was going well until this morning.  When I checked things the mount and the top of the pier were soaking wet.  (I hope it is still working.)  But I am not completely sure what has caused my issue.  Perhaps the cheap barbecue cover is not as waterproof as I'd hoped, or perhaps it is leaking.  If this is a humidity problem, however, I have a bigger problem, since I am not sure how to fix that.  

Are people able to have their mounts permanently outside on a pier without everything getting wet?

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When it gets cold, any moisture in the atmosphere will condense out onto your equipment, especially if left off.

I use a heavy duty cover from http://neilross758.wixsite.com/cygnus-astro-covers This covers the mount and a lot of the pier (double concrete columns) & I have a PC, encased in a weather proof box bolted to the side of the pier. This is left permanently left running, so generates enough heat to keep the dew off, while not in use...

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My EQ6 was mounted on a pier in November, over which I put a cover purchased from an Astronomy outlet. after a week of near torrential rain, I checked it and everything was soaked including the inside of the so called cover.I left it open to the elements all day to dry, powered it up and it worked perfectly. I then purchased a bike cover from Halfords, for £15, which covers the mount and over halfway down the pier, and apart from some condensation which is inevitable, it has worked perfectly each time I have used it since. I cannot put any sort of structure around the pier so I will be relying on this cover, but I got the gen from another SGL member, who had used this cover quite happily for two years. I do uncover the mount whenever the weather is dry, to allow air circulation.:happy11:

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I use this inverted plastic bin (which fits onto a heavily varnished OSB disc) and two (not one as in the GIF) garden furniture "de-luxe" waterproof covers.  I've been using the system for several years and have never found the mount damp.  The inside of the outer of the two covers does sometimes get damp. (The green cover is a "cheapie" garden cover and didn't last long - the ones to use are black and appear "woven" on the outside and seem to be "rubberised" on the inside - they also have small "breather holes" in them.  The mount control box also lives under the cover.

Pier-Movie.gif

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I had a GM8 mounted permanently on a pier for several years. Other than the hand controler the electronics were permanently attached to the mount, and even through the wildest winter storms it never got wet. All I did was cover the mount with a canvas garden chair cover costing around £8 and tie it around the pier with a cord. I later did the same with a G11 and it didn't get wet either. The electronics were unaffected! (I always removed the handset and power supply!)

Mike 

 

2016-11-12 18.00.00.jpg

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Thanks to everyone who has taken time to reply.  I think the original issue was that the cheap BBQ cover was leaking.  As a temporary solution, I put two bin bags over the mount and the BBQ cover on top.  Following more rain, the bin bag under the BBQ cover was soaking wet - so it was probably leaking.  The second bin bag was dry.  However, the mount was really quite moist again, suggesting to me that I was also getting a condensation issue.

On 12/30/2016 at 15:00, Saganite said:

My EQ6 was mounted on a pier in November, over which I put a cover purchased from an Astronomy outlet. after a week of near torrential rain, I checked it and everything was soaked including the inside of the so called cover.I left it open to the elements all day to dry, powered it up and it worked perfectly. I then purchased a bike cover from Halfords, for £15, which covers the mount and over halfway down the pier, and apart from some condensation which is inevitable, it has worked perfectly each time I have used it since. I cannot put any sort of structure around the pier so I will be relying on this cover, but I got the gen from another SGL member, who had used this cover quite happily for two years. I do uncover the mount whenever the weather is dry, to allow air circulation.:happy11:

I have a Halfords very near me, so I popped out to get one of those (single bike) covers.  It was £13.50 (reduced from £15).  I tried this on its own over the mount.  It rained last night.  Lo and behold this morning the mount is bone dry.  The bike cover is 'breathable' and I suspect this is key - if my reasoning is correct then the cover has to be waterproof and breathable. Thanks very much for putting me on to this.  

On 12/30/2016 at 16:51, Bizibilder said:

I use this inverted plastic bin (which fits onto a heavily varnished OSB disc) and two (not one as in the GIF) garden furniture "de-luxe" waterproof covers.  I've been using the system for several years and have never found the mount damp.  The inside of the outer of the two covers does sometimes get damp. (The green cover is a "cheapie" garden cover and didn't last long - the ones to use are black and appear "woven" on the outside and seem to be "rubberised" on the inside - they also have small "breather holes" in them.  The mount control box also lives under the cover.

Pier-Movie.gif

This looks great.  Can I ask what the plastic bin is adding, over and above the waterproof covers?

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The plastic bin serves two main functions:  Firstly it is guaranteed 100% waterproof - so any leakage through the covers simply cannot get to the mount (with the "de luxe" covers it doesn't anyway).  Secondly it provides a protected space around the mount - its surprising how many times I've "bumped" it with various things whilst working in the garden!  I suspect it also allows some air circulation on both damp or hot days - depending on the season.

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Hi Steve, I'm sure I answered this post but must have not clicked the submit button, seem to be doing that a lot lately :grin:

Any how, after trying a few scope covers that seemed to have not been designed to actually fit over a scope, especially on a tripod as they jammed up when only half way down the legs, I got one made by folk who make posh car covers.

Cost an arm and a leg but a lot less than a mount and scope.

Just took it off this morning as the Sun is shining and there is still a small amount of condensation on the scope but not as much as on the other mount next to it which only has a cheap scope cover on it ATM until I get it measured up for a proper one.

It did pour with rain for a while yesterday but not sure if that affects the condensation, when I was imaging the other night there was 99% humidity when I covered the mount and it was quite damp under the cover next day with moisture trapped from the night before.

Wishing you and all the Gnomusses a happy new year

Dave

Scope-cover1.png Scope-cover2.png

 

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My perment pier has been outside for 2+ years in a harsh (1500 feet Welsh mountain) environment. The EQ6 mount is protected as follows:

1) An old woolly hat to cover the dove tail clamp- otherwise the sharp bits will poke holes in any cover.

2) Strap a Poundland (or similar) de-humidifer pod to the mount with insulating tape. This will deal with any moisture.

3) Waterproof barrier- a cheap black plastic sack goes over the mount & counter weights. Use more insulating tape to make a seal to the the pier collumn. This can be just ripped off and thrwon away when you need to use the mount.

4) BBQ covers- I now use TWO of them held on with bungee cord. I use a single 10m length of elastic paracord wound around the BBQ covers. These must not be loose and 'flappy' or the high winds will them.

Hope this helps.

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Hi Steve. I use a telegizmo cover that i got from the widescreen centre. It was expensive but protecting expensive gear is worth it. If your gear freezes while in use you need to wipe down the next day when thawed, then just cover and away you go. Highly recommended.

https://www.widescreen-centre.co.uk/astronomy-telegizmos-telescopes-covers/365-series-telescopes-covers

IMAG0677.jpg

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A very small amount of heat under the cover will keep everything above the dewpoint, so stopping condensation. Only today I was introduced by Antonio, one of our robotic shed clients, to an extremely interesting bit of technology previously unknown to me. Roll of drums... The aquarium heater cable.  https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B019N3OYH4?th=1

Another permanent low heat source which I use successfully is the puppy warmer. ( It's trew worram tellinyer, onnist. ) http://www.petnap.co.uk/acatalog/Flexiguard-Petnap-Pet-heat-Pad-2.html

Olly

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I got hold of the Halfords bike cover and so far it seems to be working well.  Everything is bone dry.  However, someone mentioned the possibility of the waterproof cover being punctured by sharp edges and so on on the mount.  Having thought about this we decided to buy a cheap microfibre sports towel from Amazon.  We (that is @MrsGnomus) folded it in two and sewed up two ends to make a 'bag'.  So this goes over the mount and the bike cover goes over that.  So far everything has been bone dry.  I am interested in the idea of  some heat just to keep the dew off.  The solutions so far seem to require power and I don't have power close to the pier.  The pocket warmer style devices only last a few hours.  Please keep the suggestions coming....   

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Can I warn you about the Halfords bike covers, and also the Oxford ones which is practically the same thing - I had one on my motorbike around a year ago, and eventually it'll fail as they're not UV resistant.

The material basically falls apart and tears very easily.

I now have a custom bike cover that cost me £85 - but to protect a £3k motorbike, it was a no brainer.

I suspect the same logic should be applied to a £3k astronomy setup.

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The moisture is in the air and as long as there is something colder than the warmer moisture it will cling to it, covered or not. I have an unheated obzy and while perfectly weather tight there are those days everything inside is damp/wet. It sure isn't rain that's making it wet so I wouldn't get to hung up on putting several WP covers on your outdoor piers. I used an upturned bucket on my outdoor pier. Any dew that does form is quickly dried of by air circulation. If I were to put a cover over it then I loose this circulation and the cover actually holds in the wet. You do though have to find a way to secure the bucket so it doesn't blow off.

If you have any concerns there are apps that if you have a weather station will tell you the probability of dew forming based on temp and humidity. It is worth noting though that mounts are made with the foresight that they are going to be used outdoors in almost all weather. As long as common sense is used and a mount isn't turned on while soaking wet I don't see there being much adverse effects as long as the mount is looked after and serviced once in a while.

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One issue we've had with green heavy duty bags over the mount is that magpies and jackdaws seem to peck holes in it. They also become brittle over time, we're on our second.

I have an inner tubular garden bag that has wire hoops , a heavy duty bin bag that guarantees water proofing and then the garden back over the top.

 

 

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What about a rigid structure on wheels? Like a minimalist roll off shed but running free on rubber wheels rather than on rails. It could roll up to the pier and then 'dock' up to it. The pier could have a flange on it under which a cutout in a shelf of the moving box would pass, preventing lift and stopping the box from rolling too far into the pier. Basically it would be a rolling box along the lines of your Dob shed but tiny. It could be made totally reliable in terms of excluding the weather, could have insulated lining and plenty of ventilation to reduce condensation.

Olly

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1 hour ago, ollypenrice said:

What about a rigid structure on wheels? Like a minimalist roll off shed but running free on rubber wheels rather than on rails. It could roll up to the pier and then 'dock' up to it. The pier could have a flange on it under which a cutout in a shelf of the moving box would pass, preventing lift and stopping the box from rolling too far into the pier. Basically it would be a rolling box along the lines of your Dob shed but tiny.

I can just imagine the reaction of our long suffering gardener/handyman Mark if we told him we wanted another roll off observatory- he already thinks we are mad for having another pier and planning a further circular patio to match the one under the Dob shed! On the other hand I did see a thread a while ago where someone had built a roll off Tardis.....

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1 hour ago, ollypenrice said:

What about a rigid structure on wheels? Like a minimalist roll off shed but running free on rubber wheels rather than on rails. It could roll up to the pier and then 'dock' up to it. The pier could have a flange on it under which a cutout in a shelf of the moving box would pass, preventing lift and stopping the box from rolling too far into the pier. Basically it would be a rolling box along the lines of your Dob shed but tiny. It could be made totally reliable in terms of excluding the weather, could have insulated lining and plenty of ventilation to reduce condensation.

Olly

Thank you for your Mephistophelean suggestion.  :evil4:

One thing that would worry me about a 'Tardis'-like structure is that it is tall and thin.  I wonder if, with the relatively small footprint, it might be vulnerable to be blown over by the wind....

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1 minute ago, MrsGnomus said:

I can just imagine the reaction of our long suffering gardener/handyman Mark if we told him we wanted another roll off observatory- he already thinks we are mad for having another pier and planning a further circular patio to match the one under the Dob shed! On the other hand I did see a thread a while ago where someone had built a roll off Tardis.....

It doesn't need to be very big or any higher than the top of the mount. You'd leave the counterwights at their lowest, so on the north side. The N-S sides of this box would need to longer than the E-W.

It would indeed have a tall, thin aspect but the docking mechanism would use the pier to prevent it from tipping over. It could also have a quick release 'guying' mechanism using, for instance, bicycle wheel quick release lever cams.

I think it could be surprizingly compact.

UV is the fabric killer as has been said earlier and the bag problem is one of trapping moisture inside.

OK, another idea based on Swamp Thing's bucket. A fabricated aluminium box tailored to fit over the top of the mount and engage with purpose made locators on the pier, to which it then attaches with quick release devices. Made in aluminium it would be pretty light and could be lined with expanded polystyrene sheet or camping mat against condensation. Perosnally I'd rather not have to take off the C/W bar and weights each time. A fabricator could make one for you or you could make your own using aluminium angle for the edges bolted to tailored flat sheets. It might have a fabric skirt to stop the wind gettng up its kilt, so to speak.

I still go for the wheeled box.

Olly

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I have been pondering this for a while and very much like Olly's idea about a wheeled frame. I have thought about a hinged fixed frame. As most piers have a large concrete base then you could attach a wooden square frame to this and then a hinged frame that can be lowered to the ground. I know this would block access to one side of the scope but I was not planning on visual so access is not an issue.

 

Then just a cover over the frame and this should allow more than enough air to circulate around the scope? Shouldn't it?

 

pillar.JPG

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I don't have a pier, but I routinely leave my tripod mount set up, toes in detents. I cover the mount with a waterproof canvas cover, and over that I put a 32 gallon plastic trash bin. And I leave the bottom open for ventilation. Wim got quite a kick out of my variation on 'Binning'.  https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/282977-i-dont-want-to-use-a-computer/?do=findComment&comment=3097058

So far the combination has worked great for me. If condensation is a problem, something as simple as a small light bulb up under the cover will keep out the damp. But there are other equally effective heating items that can be used. We use to have heater strips in larger electrical panels to keep them nice and dry.

 

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