Accessible Telescope

[John 1969jo]

Hi there,

My son has recently shown a big interest in getting a telescope but he is disabled and can't look through an eyepiece.  I know basically nothing about telescopes but we are both willing to learn :-) .

Is there anything available that would allow me to get whatever you would normally see looking through the eyepiece onto my sons PC screen in his bedroom via a USB cable or anything like that and is there a level entry telescope that anyone can recommend for him.

 

Any help would be very much appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance.

John

[D4N]

What you are describing is called electronically assisted astronomy (EAA) or video astronomy.  This forum has a whole section on it.

You place a camera where the eyepiece normally goes and watch the image on a computer screen.

The camera is set to take exposures and the software automatically stacks these to produce an image that will gradually show more detail over time, much like when you view conventionally but you will see much more detail and colour.

 

Unfortunately to get this to work you really need a goto mount and a sensitive camera.

What budget are you looking at?

[John 1969jo]

Thanks D4N,

I thought it might be something like this I would need.

 

I have been looking on line and have seen some equipment that 'fits' onto the eypiece but as I said, I really know nothing about it.

I was hoping to get something for around £300- £400 if possible!

 

John

[cjdawson]

£300-£400 I think would get your a mount, but not the rest.  The tricky part of this is that you'd need a good mount, I'm thinking something like an NEQ6, Then you'd need a scope, which would code a £100-£200 for something with a short focal length.  After that the camera would have to be sensitive, so we're talking mega bucks for that (start at about £100 and go up to well over £3000 - depending on features)  I think you'd have to spend about £300 for something that isn't going to disappoint.

 

I'm sure others will have opinions and some may have ideas of what to get for this type of imaging, that won't break the bank of england.

[noah4x4]

I suspect you will need to look to the 'used' equipment market given that modest budget. Even so,  I think you may struggle to get anything sufficiently user friendly. It is obviously possible to remotely control everything, but to deliver something satisfying might be hugely challenging for his carer and/or vastly expensive.

Even if you do get something practical up and running, what can be seen on his PC may be hugely frustrating as other than the moon and the major planets, few celestial objects when imaged via a telescope look impressive on a computer screen unless the camera in use has cost £thousands. What you see in (say) magazines are the result of many hours of tracking, imaging and processing. But I do have three potential ideas..... ( you could pursue all three!)...

1.  Why not acquire some decent free Planetarium software for his PC?

OK, it's not the real thing, but he will then see the best images the skies can offer taken by professionals.  Frankly, we all wish we had a more powerful telescope and have to accept limitations. For him, sadly, that might unfortunately mean naked eye astronomy backed up by an on-line resource that pictorially shows more. But that's a better start point than spending £500 on kit that won't deliver and hence failing to provide any satisfaction.

2.  More radical; take a look at www.itelescope.net. 

Here you can buy a subscription to remotely access (e.g. over the Internet) some seriously big real telescopes and remotely operate and view them locally via your PC. I am not sure of the costs, but I guess it's THE most "accessible" resource in the public domain. Why not talk to them about "accesible" needs?  It's a fairly new service and I envisage they might assist simply to encourage good public relations and gain some media etc.

3.  You don't mention your location, but I am sure your local astronomy club outreach group would be willing to assist. Simply setting up kit to achieve your goals can be quite tedious and possibly not too practical (unless you have an observatory). However,  there are many people in this forum with suitable equipment willing to assist. 

ADDED

A starter subscription at www.itelescope.net is $20 per month. If you have a budget of £300, that potentially offers 30 months of what you aspire. It's double the warranty of anything you might buy and you can access some of the best kit and "live" celestial sights from his bedroom. That fee won't offer 24/7 access for a month (as its a points system per hour), but you may get access to more hours of clear skies whilst driving a telescope in the Atacama desert than we under UK mirk!

 

[John 1969jo]

Thanks for the replys guys.

 

I take it that my initial idea of something like a Skywatcher   Sky Scan Go To telescope with an Orion Starshoot USB eyepiece camera just isn't going to cut it then?

 

Thanks

John

[D4N]

I think the scope could be made to work but I'm not sure that the camera would be up to the task.

Ones that are sensitive enough are a bit more expensive.

I have done some EAA with my ASI178MC and that was quite successful but that camera is £344.

The ASI120MC is much cheaper at £140 but I think the sensor is a bit small for this.

You need to factor in software too, if the camera doesn't have free software with it this could be costly.

[cjdawson]

The Orion star shoot would be good for the moon as a live image.  You can use it to take movies of a planet, then run that movie through software like registax to get a good planetary image.

beyond that it simply won't cut it.   So deep sky objects would beyond that camera and would will need another much more sensitive one.

[Dave In Vermont]

This package recently crossed by synapses:

http://agenaastro.com/revolution-imager-live-view-video-camera-system-for-telescope.html

Worth taking a look at - at least! Likely available in the UK with an easy search.

Give my best to your son,

Dave

[noah4x4]

11 hours ago, John 1969jo said:

Thanks for the replys guys.

 

I take it that my initial idea of something like a Skywatcher   Sky Scan Go To telescope with an Orion Starshoot USB eyepiece camera just isn't going to cut it then?

 

Thanks

John

Sorry John,  but if your son can't look through an eyepiece that budget set up probably isn't going to be satisfactory. It is the camera and mount that will disappoint. Astrophotography (except for the moon) requires a high quality camera, long exposures and telescope tracking. We are now so used to HD TV type images that a smokey blob that is supposed to be a planet won't ever satisfy.  

Then setting up truly remote operation isn't cheap. GoTo isn't challenging, but swapping EP'S or simply focusing is a challenge. I have a £1,800 SCT 8" scope with excellent light gathering power and a  £250 Nextimage Burst Colour camera but other than the moon, Jupiter and Saturn, all my imaging results on a PC have been disappointing. You may need a £300 to £3,000 camera to deliver what I think will meet your expectation.

Why not attempt a brief trial of www.itelescope.net? There you can hire the expensive kit that is really needed to deliver "live" images on a PC and be guaranteed clear skies.  He might be bored with it quite quickly, so this is no risk.

 

[noah4x4]

1 hour ago, Dave In Vermont said:

This package recently crossed by synapses:

http://agenaastro.com/revolution-imager-live-view-video-camera-system-for-telescope.html

Worth taking a look at - at least! Likely available in the UK with an easy search.

Give my best to your son,

Dave

Nice idea Dave, but the promotional images for the Revolution Imager are general taken at extreme USA dark sky sites. The constraint here is a desire to view the skies on a PC from the boy's bedroom in what is likely to be typical UK urban gloom.

I am sure that a member of his local astronomy club (or one of the retailers) would be happy to demonstrate the capabilities of (say) a Nexstar SE4 with a similar CCD camera available in the UK  (perhaps Nextimage Burst Colour); but we are talking about double the suggested budget and I still feel that (beyond the moon) any results might be disappointing. My fear is John could easily spend £1,000 and still not have a solution that is adequately "accessible".

Many new entrants to this hobby are disappointed with what they see through their budget telescopes because they are enticed by the Hubble images depicted in magazines. But they can, at least, look through an EP. Here, we must get the image from the telescope onto a PC screen. It's possible, but good results are expensive. I still reckon best advice is to explore www.itelescope.net. 

[happy-kat]

The Moon can give a lot of interest, there are the different craters to identify and this charges as the Moon waxes and wanes. A webcam can capture images of the Moon, Jupiter and possibly saturn (planets are not available all the time sometimes wait a year before you might see one) and display live on a computer screen with a long enough USB lead. If you accept that for first foray the Moon is your main target because the camera won't be sensitive enough for much more would that be enough.

If this is going to be a telescope set up inside then whilst not ideal can you see enough of the sky to be able to set up alignment so that the goto and tracking works. Can you see stars from the room you would use. Will it be the same room your son is in. Can the room be unheated as heat thermals really play havoc with what you might then see. Which direction does the window you would use face everything rises from the east and sets in the West, a north window would be no go. Second hand buying would get you equipment for less or more for the budget.

^ good idea above re local astronomy club making contact and also retailer.

[Alan64]

On 12/27/2016 at 17:12, John 1969jo said:

Thanks for the replys guys.

 

I take it that my initial idea of something like a Skywatcher   Sky Scan Go To telescope with an Orion Starshoot USB eyepiece camera just isn't going to cut it then?

 

Thanks

John

You do have the option of getting the telescope kit first...

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/az-goto/sky-watcher-star-discovery-150p.html

Then to become proficient in its use.  Then later, with the kit out of the way, get a suitable astronomy camera as mentioned.  You can take a small point-and-shoot camera in the meantime, and take snapshots of the brighter objects and show them to your son.  I have a telescope exactly like that one; the same size as the one within that kit, but on a manual mount...

I've taken these shots simply by holding said point-and-shoot up to an eyepiece and snapping a shot, on the fly.  I am by no means a professional photographer.  It's the camera that does most of the work.  I just aim it, holding it steady, and press the button...

Every other night or so, you could take a photograph of the Moon, beginning when it's a crescent, to when it's fully phased...

The brighter DSOs are also possible with the afocal technique...

Now, that's with a manual mount.  With a go-to, and motorised tracking, taking photographs through the eyepiece becomes that much easier, not to mention the increase in the number and type of objects available, and at differing magnifications through several eyepieces.

The Moon, at a distance, and close up...

There are no hard and fast rules when using a camera at the telescope.   The photographs only need to be adjusted in brightness and contrast, sharpened, resized and cropped, and with a computer art programme; and not necessarily Adobe Photoshop.  I didn't use such when adjusting these images, and I adjusted them to match only what is seen through the eyepiece during a live view, with the eye and mind. 

 

[noah4x4]

Can we return to having empathy with the "accessibility" challenge?

How is a carer (parent)  using the telescope; hence the carer then taking some still photographs and then showing them to the disabled boy in his bedroom an "accessible" solution to the challenge described in the OP?  You might as well give the disabled child an astronomy book or an APP to look at.

The concept required here is to deliver live images from a telescope to his computer screen located in his bedroom so that he feels an integral and direct participant in our wonderful hobby.

Yes, his carer (parent) will have to set up and control much stuff, but suggesting the use of still photographs produced at arms length  away from the child (IMHO)  completely misses the objective. The solution has to be either an inexpensive camera set-up (which might produce disappointing images);  or an expensive camera set up (that might be too costly); or an innovative compromise such as www.itelescope.net.

Indeed,  the best idea would be for the parent to contact his local astronomy group and an experienced person demonstrate potential solutions.  If local to Essex, I would be happy to demonstrate (say) a Nexstar SE4 + Nextimage Burst Camera costing double the available budget, but I am not convinced it will deliver to meet  the family's aspirations here. A subscription to www.itelescope.net does, at least connect sufficiently powerful equipment to his PC for the images that he selects and controls to be satisfactory.

[LukeSkywatcher]

On 29/12/2016 at 16:17, noah4x4 said:

Can we return to having empathy with the "accessibility" challenge?

How is a carer (parent)  using the telescope; hence the carer then taking some still photographs and then showing them to the disabled boy in his bedroom an "accessible" solution to the challenge described in the OP?  You might as well give the disabled child an astronomy book or an APP to look at.

The concept required here is to deliver live images from a telescope to his computer screen located in his bedroom so that he feels an integral and direct participant in our wonderful hobby.

Yes, his carer (parent) will have to set up and control much stuff, but suggesting the use of still photographs produced at arms length  away from the child (IMHO)  completely misses the objective. The solution has to be either an inexpensive camera set-up (which might produce disappointing images);  or an expensive camera set up (that might be too costly); or an innovative compromise such as www.itelescope.net.

Indeed,  the best idea would be for the parent to contact his local astronomy group and an experienced person demonstrate potential solutions.  If local to Essex, I would be happy to demonstrate (say) a Nexstar SE4 + Nextimage Burst Camera costing double the available budget, but I am not convinced it will deliver to meet  the family's aspirations here. A subscription to www.itelescope.net does, at least connect sufficiently powerful equipment to his PC for the images that he selects and controls to be satisfactory.

Well said. The OP clearly stated that his son is unable to look through an eyepiece. That rules out any possible scope for his son to use even if someone else sets it up. Whats needed is a live imaging system (web camera etc) which can be hooked up to a scope and then broadcast to a computer screen.

So, yes a scope will be needed to enable the live imaging system to be hooked up to it.  That could all get a wee bit expensive, but can be done cheaper (Celestron Neximage).

I do like the idea of buying time on a remote telescope and observing,imaging that way. Might even try that  myself soon.

[Stu]

Would something like a Samsung SCB2000 not be a reasonable starter for this? With the IR filter removed which is a simple task, they give reasonable colour views when put into a fast scope. Being analogue it would be straightforward to run a coax cable to the pc into a frame grabber card. These cameras can be bought used for around £50 off eBay, perhaps cheaper.

They are a little bulky though (low tech, low price but if it gets you started then that must be good?) so as suggested elsewhere, one of the guidescope cams will allow integration of frames might be possible?

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/guide-cameras/touptek-colour-imaging-guider-camera-gcmos01200kpb.html

For this sort of imaging you don't need to be on an NEQ6, an alt az tracking mount would be ok I think, the issue is then which scope to use. Perhaps a Skywatcher 130p synscan alt az goto? At f5 it's fast enough to give reasonably bright images with a video camera I should think?

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/az-goto/skywatcher-explorer-130p-synscan-az-goto.html

Potentially buying the scope and camera used you might be able to put together a simple EAA system which would get you going?

Keep asking questions, I'm sure there is a possible solution which suits.

Stu

[Stu]

This website is also good for live broadcasts by astronomers using live video type cameras.

https://www.nightskiesnetwork.com/

[DRT]

I have just registered for a demo account on www.itelescope.net which gives view-only access to all of their scopes for 365 days for free. You cannot control or use any equipment but it looks like you can view whatever is being observed at any given point in time. Unfortunately, all of the scopes are currently offline so there is nothing to see but I will report back later.

[noah4x4]

10 minutes ago, DRT said:

I have just registered for a demo account on www.itelescope.net which gives view-only access to all of their scopes for 365 days for free. You cannot control or use any equipment but it looks like you can view whatever is being observed at any given point in time. Unfortunately, all of the scopes are currently offline so there is nothing to see but I will report back later.

I have considered it too, but already  owning a good quality scope it did seem a bit extravagant, but a potentially ideal solution for the "accessibility" challenge here. Look forward to hearing your feedback. Maybe start a new thread too under reviews?

[DRT]

57 minutes ago, noah4x4 said:

I have considered it too, but already  owning a good quality scope it did seem a bit extravagant, but a potentially ideal solution for the "accessibility" challenge here. Look forward to hearing your feedback. Maybe start a new thread too under reviews?

"Extravagant"?

The Demo account is free for a year

[noah4x4]

Yep, because after ten minutes of watching others having fun I couldn't resist reaching for my credit card and being hooked. That's why I am so pleased you have volunteered. It is similar with stuff like Ancestry UK, it would just lure me in.  I reckon I invest more in my local pub than its landlord, and as for astronomy.... far too compelling.

[LukeSkywatcher]

3 hours ago, Stu said:

Would something like a Samsung SCB2000 not be a reasonable starter for this? With the IR filter removed which is a simple task, they give reasonable colour views when put into a fast scope. Being analogue it would be straightforward to run a coax cable to the pc into a frame grabber card. These cameras can be bought used for around £50 off eBay, perhaps cheaper.

They are a little bulky though (low tech, low price but if it gets you started then that must be good?) so as suggested elsewhere, one of the guidescope cams will allow integration of frames might be possible?

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/guide-cameras/touptek-colour-imaging-guider-camera-gcmos01200kpb.html

For this sort of imaging you don't need to be on an NEQ6, an alt az tracking mount would be ok I think, the issue is then which scope to use. Perhaps a Skywatcher 130p synscan alt az goto? At f5 it's fast enough to give reasonably bright images with a video camera I should think?

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/az-goto/skywatcher-explorer-130p-synscan-az-goto.html

Potentially buying the scope and camera used you might be able to put together a simple EAA system which would get you going?

Keep asking questions, I'm sure there is a possible solution which suits.

Stu

That looks and sounds the business. Its the best and cheapest solution offered up so far.

I'm liking that Samsung SCB2000.

[John 1969jo]

Guys,

Thank you all very much for your replies and suggestions. All very helpful to me as I haven't got a clue about this :-).

My son asked for a microscope a few years ago and this is when we discovered he couldn't look through the eyepiece to see any images. I then got him a USB microscope where the image went straight to his PC screen. This is what got me thinking about the same idea for a telescope but I now understand that this is a whole different ball game all together!

I have had a reply from Martin from First Light Optics on it and he basically said the same as you guys, not easy or inexpensive!

We also went along to a local (ish) shop in Glasgow for some advice but the shop owner wasn't too sure about it. We did however notice that the eyepieces on the telescopes were larger than on a microscope so not sure if this may help my son looking through them.

I have also found out that there is an astronomy club in Glasgow and it looks like they do the occasional 'open' night where we could maybe go along and try a few set up telescopes. The next one is in February so hopefully I can get my son along to that.

I'll work through all your advice and reply's in the meantime and hopefully find something that works for him.

I'll let you know how I get on!

Thank you all again,

John

[Charic]

On 12/27/2016 at 14:27, John 1969jo said:

My son has recently shown a big interest in getting a telescope but he is disabled and can't look through an eyepiece

Have you had a look at Stellarium?             http://www.stellarium.org/en_GB/       Its as good, if not better, than any telescope out there, if/when the weather outside does not allow the use of a real telescope, or whatever  reason one can't use a telescope ?
Its a software Planetarium that's FREE to download and works on just about any format, Linux, Windows, Mac. We recommend it all the time.
You can set it up to match your location for  anywhere in the UK , which provides, by replicating the views you would see if you were to physically go outside for real, only this time,  its with the comfort and warmth of being indoors! 
Its a great learning and educating tool, I use it all the time, probably more time than I spend behind the scope,  if the weather does not permit me to go outside.
There is  also an option to input eyepiece specifications, along with telescope specifications, which simulates the scope you could be looking through? Or just scroll around zooming in/out with the mouse, if your Son is able to move the mouse.

Its not the same as  physically owning a scope,  especially if  your  Son is adamant that he want's a  real scope, but as an alternative to not  getting out , I have nothing better than Stellarium, that is easy to use without external help and expensive equipment?
Working myself  with children and adults who require additional special needs,  I'm  fully aware  that some of the simplest  things in life are just out of reach for some children,  things we take  just for granted.
One thing for sure, with or without a telescope, Stellarium is a great program to have if your interested in the night sky.

[Alan64]

" The next one is in February so hopefully I can get my son along to that. "

That sounds to be a great plan.  If successful, then much more hopeful the accessibility to a kit set up in the garden at home.

"We did however notice that the eyepieces on the telescopes were larger than on a microscope so not sure if this may help my son looking through them."

Microscopes were used much more widely than telescopes in the early years, from the late 1800s to about the 1940s to '50s, and due to their greater and immediate importance in finding cures.  When consumer telescopes first became available in the mid-20th century, eyepieces very much like those used with microscopes found their way into the telescope kits of that time, and for a couple of decades later even.  These are eyepieces of my own from the late 1960s to early '70s...

They have the same or near-to-the-same barrel diameter(.965" or 25mm) as those used with microscopes.  Their tiny eye-lenses are readily apparent.  One's eye must also be held up very close to the eye-lens in order to see the full view.  To this day, there are some kits, not many fortunately, that still include those smaller eyepieces.

Here, a comparison of a newer and older 12mm eyepiece...

The larger 12mm has a barrel diameter of 1.25"(32mm), which allows for a larger eye-lens and a wider view.  Today, the 1.25" eyepiece format is still the most commonly used.  This is an example of a current 12mm, and an 8mm even, and both with even larger eye-lenses through which to observe...

http://www.astromart.com/images/classifieds/699000-699999/699289-1.jpg

A comparison of a newer and older 20mm eyepiece...

Note the relatively enormous eye-lens of the more modern 20mm.

Lastly, a comparison of a 2"(51mm) 32mm eyepiece to a 1.25" 30mm, both modern, for low power and a wide field-of-view...

The eye-lens of the smaller 30mm appears to be just as large as that of the 32mm; both are available, and at a reasonable cost.

Indeed, modern telescope eyepieces make for a far more comfortable and meaningful observing experience.