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The importance of dark skies (A realisation, a big change for me and a letter to newcomers!)


johnfosteruk

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I've been out this evening, lovely clear skies, not a cloud in sight, good transparency and seeing, marvellous.

Lovely views of Venus early on at about 180x showing the phase clearly and some variation in shades of grey, I think, maybe, it's that old "I know what I'm expecting to see so, has my subconscious tricked me" thing.

Once it started getting properly dark (such as it is round here) I switched to the 5" reflector and swung around to Perseus and Taurus in the East, going cluster hunting says I, I've got my list that I put together last week and very excited was I.

On the list was M45 & the Hyades of course -the old favourites, stars (intended) of the show. Then it was to be on to more exotic material Collinder 65 & 69, some NGCs 1746, 1857 (and it's neighbour Collinder 62) to name but a few.

I love open clusters, such variety of shape, size, so many patterns, some interesting physics happening and a great test of your optics to see how many stars one can resolve.

However, my excitement was soon subdued, one word, well two... Light pollution, it's a dratted awful horrible nasty evil rotten terrible hateful despicable thing.

So, the point to which I am, eventually, getting is this: At home I shall only be partaking of Lunar and Planetary observing from this point forward.

In retrospect I'm quite pleased with the deep sky observations I have been able to make from the back garden, and there are a few corners where I'm shielded from the local lamps and windows that ruin your dark adaption but the views from there are limited and the main issue is surface brightness, the contrast is just atrocious from about 40 degrees altitude down. Higher is a little better but in the place I need to be to protect my dark adaption I can't really observe up to the zenith due to restricted movement in those spots.

Not to dismiss what I have been able to observe in the past from here, I've had some great sights, My first views of M13, M81&82, and much much more. I've persevered, knowing it's challenging, but no more.

If you're new at this (being Christmas and all, I hope you like your new telescope or binoculars, please stick at it, it really is worth the challenges you may face as you embark on this truly delightful hobby) The one piece of advice I have to offer (actually a few pieces but this is of equal importance for me as the rest) is get somewhere dark, make sure your telescope is well collimated, wrap up warm & take coffee, make sure your mount is solid and get somewhere dark.

There, I mentioned it twice it's that important, it's been the most challenging thing I've had to deal with in the hobby and having access to some wonderful dark sites (SQM 20-21 and beyond) I have experience and am able to compare the difference between observing in the dark and observing under what seems like a halogen bulb in comparison.

So I'm not ranting, or complaining or contemplating stopping this hobby that I love, I am empowering myself, I am simply saying that I will not tolerate limiting conditions and neither should you, rise up fellow astronomers, drive or get a bus or take the bins on Shank's Pony to the country and get observing. Use your weather apps to decide whether the trip is going to be worth it or not, and if it is, do it. The difference really is astounding and I am not settling for 2nd best any more. I may do something to permanently shield the worst of it in future but at this point I don't feel the need, I am at peace. :)

So, tonight here I am writing this and making a start on Peter Grego's terrific Observer's guide to the Moon as I've had a few drinkies, so can't drive to take advantage of the dark sites, or walk for that matter as it'll take me till tomorrow morning to get there.

 

Clear skies one and all.

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All you have typed is true other than M45 being Hyades :grin:

I used to travel to a dark site, and plan to return to it some time in the new year, if deep sky is your thing then a dark site is worth a couple of inches of aperture of scope, faint fuzzies become more prominent, i have seen M31 naked eye from my favourite camp site! im lucky if i can see it in a scope here, as said, get out there keep warm or you will get cold and pack in early

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2 minutes ago, nightfisher said:

All you have typed is true other than M45 being Hyades :grin:

It was a list Jules, wake up - M45 and the Hyades :)

back on topic though it really is worth a few inches of aperture for anyone who's only ever observed in the city, stop it, now, get somewhere dark (did I say that already)

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I dont understand the definition of dark sites, I live within a mile or so of a city center with lots of street lights and houses going full blast including mine (scared of monsters in the dark) but have no problems seeing the milky way and lots of faint stuff, the biggest issue is pollutants that ruin the seeing.

Alan 

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4 minutes ago, Alien 13 said:

I dont understand the definition of dark sites, I live within a mile or so of a city center with lots of street lights and houses going full blast including mine (scared of monsters in the dark) but have no problems seeing the milky way and lots of faint stuff, the biggest issue is pollutants that ruin the seeing.

Alan 

Could it be due to the type of light used, what is your local street lighting there in Leicester Alan? is it LED or sodium?

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10 minutes ago, Alien 13 said:

LED, but it could be a case of knowing somethings there so you can see it, I think the brain can act like a filter if you train it.

Alan

It would be interesting for you to take a scope to a dark site and see your reaction, i think you might be amazed

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4 minutes ago, nightfisher said:

John, where would you go for dark skies out on the moors?

yup, there's a number of spots within 20 mins to an hour from Plymouth, Exmoor and Dartmoor have a number of easily accessible locations, Wembury beach car park along the coast from Plymouth is another quick one to get to. Then there's Cornwall where there's more dark locations than not frankly.

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Plymouth is not too bad, just head up the road to Tavistock and turn left or right before Yelverton. Then you are on the Dartmoor Park and that is dark. For the vast majority of us a dark sky, in some cases just a darker sky, means a drive to somewhere. My "dark" location is 18 miles and it isn't overly dark either. It is just better.

The other factor is that most of the UK dark skies are in the West, and the West is the cloudy area of the UK. The overlooked aspect is that dark with clouds is not a great deal of use. However clear but with some light pollution allows you to see things.

Make the best of what you have in all aspects.

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Dark skies are, of course, wonderful and too many of us live in very compromised areas.  A few years ago mine were fairly good, given I'm only 8 miles from Cambridge, but recently I've noticed the skies are not as dark and some of the fainter stuff is much trickier to tease out.  There are some new towns being built and the A14 upgrade, the sites for which are lit by those horrible temporary flood lights that lack almost any kind of directionality.  What was once lovely dark sky is now peppered with (hopefully temporary!) white light domes.

But there's still lots to see beyond the solar system; a lot of it is about adjusting to the particular conditions on the night.  Imperfect transparency often comes with good seeing - great time for double stars!  Plenty of clusters to be seen in brighter skies and a surprising number of planetaries that can pack a punch through the murk.  I find it's galaxies that suffer the most from poor skies, closely followed by nebulae.  

One other tip for the newbie; at this time of year, it's great to warm up afterwards with a piping hot mug of mulled wine.  Mine is sorting me out a treat at the moment!  *hiccup* :coffee22::headbang2:

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Apologies if this is a really basic question.  What size of scope is it practical to take to sites?  As a complete newbie since Sunday I am the proud owner of an 8" reflector which works surprisingly well on the patio (we're on the edge of the village) while I plan the building of an observatory (shed!).  I am however very near the Galloway Forest Dark Skies Park.  While the reflector seems light enough the tripod and mount are astonishingly heavy.  Does everyone lug these around or is it normal to take something rather lighter?

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1 hour ago, Forester said:

Apologies if this is a really basic question.  What size of scope is it practical to take to sites?  As a complete newbie since Sunday I am the proud owner of an 8" reflector which works surprisingly well on the patio (we're on the edge of the village) while I plan the building of an observatory (shed!).  I am however very near the Galloway Forest Dark Skies Park.  While the reflector seems light enough the tripod and mount are astonishingly heavy.  Does everyone lug these around or is it normal to take something rather lighter?

I have used a 150 newt on the AZ 4 and this works very well as a travel scope for going out to dark sites and not so expensive to buy, i once took a Vixen 80 m frac to dumfries (caresthorn) and was blown away

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1 hour ago, Forester said:

Apologies if this is a really basic question.  What size of scope is it practical to take to sites?  As a complete newbie since Sunday I am the proud owner of an 8" reflector which works surprisingly well on the patio (we're on the edge of the village) while I plan the building of an observatory (shed!).  I am however very near the Galloway Forest Dark Skies Park.  While the reflector seems light enough the tripod and mount are astonishingly heavy.  Does everyone lug these around or is it normal to take something rather lighter?

Welcome to SGL, @Forester!

I think the answer is "it depends".  If your car is large enough to transport it securely, and you're fit enough to load and unload it (in the dark, while cold and tired) without something going pop (either on the scope or on you) then it's practical to take to a dark site.  I find it a lot quicker and easier to load my 12" dob into my car (albeit an estate car with seats folded flat) and to set it up at my site than I used to find setting up a mid-sized frac on a Sky-Tee mount.  I couldn't fit much of the family in with me when I do this, but for solo trips I've got it reasonably well honed.

I think the trick would be to try out different ways of packing everything into your car and seeing what works best.  If you have a plan that you know works, it makes things a lot easier at 2am with frost covering everything, cold feet and hands that you can see but not feel.

Dark sites are always worth it!!

Paul

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Like johnfosteruk I only bother with the brighter planets and the Moon, and the sun when I have the appropriate filters. I made that decision a couple of years ago and the LP in the centre of Watford is noticeably worse since then. As I don't have, or need, a car, going to a dark site with my setup isn't feasible, hence I use binoculars for all astronomy away from home. Sometimes that means going for a night time bike ride, sometimes it means travelling to somewhere truly remote and it's in these places the lack of light pollution becomes obvious.

Not everyone has the chance to go to such places, often it's difficult enough in this country, but when - if, you do, it will change the way you observe.

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Thanks, it should fit in the car.  On looking at the internet I can see cases available for the scope and mount which would make the job a lot easier than putting it all in loose.  Galloway Forest is only 45 mins drive away so it looks worth a try on a good night.

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On 27/12/2016 at 07:39, Forester said:

Apologies if this is a really basic question.  What size of scope is it practical to take to sites?  As a complete newbie since Sunday I am the proud owner of an 8" reflector which works surprisingly well on the patio (we're on the edge of the village) while I plan the building of an observatory (shed!).  I am however very near the Galloway Forest Dark Skies Park.  While the reflector seems light enough the tripod and mount are astonishingly heavy.  Does everyone lug these around or is it normal to take something rather lighter?

The ultimate dark sky scope is, I guess, the truss dobsonian. Whilst still heavy, they break down into manageable components that fit into a car quite easily. This gives the best of both worlds, aperture and dark skies!

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On 26/12/2016 at 20:31, johnfosteruk said:

I've been out this evening, lovely clear skies, not a cloud in sight, good transparency and seeing, marvellous.

Lovely views of Venus early on at about 180x showing the phase clearly and some variation in shades of grey, I think, maybe, it's that old "I know what I'm expecting to see so, has my subconscious tricked me" thing.

Once it started getting properly dark (such as it is round here) I switched to the 5" reflector and swung around to Perseus and Taurus in the East, going cluster hunting says I, I've got my list that I put together last week and very excited was I.

On the list was M45 & the Hyades of course -the old favourites, stars (intended) of the show. Then it was to be on to more exotic material Collinder 65 & 69, some NGCs 1746, 1857 (and it's neighbour Collinder 62) to name but a few.

I love open clusters, such variety of shape, size, so many patterns, some interesting physics happening and a great test of your optics to see how many stars one can resolve.

However, my excitement was soon subdued, one word, well two... Light pollution, it's a dratted awful horrible nasty evil rotten terrible hateful despicable thing.

So, the point to which I am, eventually, getting is this: At home I shall only be partaking of Lunar and Planetary observing from this point forward.

In retrospect I'm quite pleased with the deep sky observations I have been able to make from the back garden, and there are a few corners where I'm shielded from the local lamps and windows that ruin your dark adaption but the views from there are limited and the main issue is surface brightness, the contrast is just atrocious from about 40 degrees altitude down. Higher is a little better but in the place I need to be to protect my dark adaption I can't really observe up to the zenith due to restricted movement in those spots.

Not to dismiss what I have been able to observe in the past from here, I've had some great sights, My first views of M13, M81&82, and much much more. I've persevered, knowing it's challenging, but no more.

If you're new at this (being Christmas and all, I hope you like your new telescope or binoculars, please stick at it, it really is worth the challenges you may face as you embark on this truly delightful hobby) The one piece of advice I have to offer (actually a few pieces but this is of equal importance for me as the rest) is get somewhere dark, make sure your telescope is well collimated, wrap up warm & take coffee, make sure your mount is solid and get somewhere dark.

There, I mentioned it twice it's that important, it's been the most challenging thing I've had to deal with in the hobby and having access to some wonderful dark sites (SQM 20-21 and beyond) I have experience and am able to compare the difference between observing in the dark and observing under what seems like a halogen bulb in comparison.

So I'm not ranting, or complaining or contemplating stopping this hobby that I love, I am empowering myself, I am simply saying that I will not tolerate limiting conditions and neither should you, rise up fellow astronomers, drive or get a bus or take the bins on Shank's Pony to the country and get observing. Use your weather apps to decide whether the trip is going to be worth it or not, and if it is, do it. The difference really is astounding and I am not settling for 2nd best any more. I may do something to permanently shield the worst of it in future but at this point I don't feel the need, I am at peace. :)

So, tonight here I am writing this and making a start on Peter Grego's terrific Observer's guide to the Moon as I've had a few drinkies, so can't drive to take advantage of the dark sites, or walk for that matter as it'll take me till tomorrow morning to get there.

 

Clear skies one and all.

John, I know exactly where you are coming from! I've just spent a couple of nights in Radcliffe on Trent at the mother in law's. It's not proper dark, and last night although very clear I could see the Double Cluster with the naked eye, but the Milky Way was not visible. That said, it was so much dramatically better than at home that I was coming round to your way of thinking.

On 26/12/2016 at 21:07, Alien 13 said:

LED, but it could be a case of knowing somethings there so you can see it, I think the brain can act like a filter if you train it.

Alan

To address Alan's point, I know exactly where this stuff is, and have seen it all before so it is not a brain thing, the objects are either just invisible or look so poor that it is quite deflating.

I have a young child and so have little time to spare. I am seriously wondering whether to focus on the moon and solar for a while from home until I am in a position to regularly get to a dark site again. I should ponder on this for a hike but think it may be the best option.

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I'm glad it's not just me although last night I put teddy back in the Pram, setup the evostar and had a lovely hour amongst the clusters. It's difficult and a dark site does give a more rewarding experience all things being equal but I am still considering leaving home for lunar/solar/planetary. 

This is subject to change as I'm always consistently inconsistent and I do love the convenience of a quick session at home  

 

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1 hour ago, johnfosteruk said:

I'm glad it's not just me although last night I put teddy back in the Pram, setup the evostar and had a lovely hour amongst the clusters. It's difficult and a dark site does give a more rewarding experience all things being equal but I am still considering leaving home for lunar/solar/planetary. 

This is subject to change as I'm always consistently inconsistent and I do leave the convenience of a quick session at home  

 

Oh I quite agree there John. I reserve the right to completely change my mind ;) 

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