First Light: BST Explorers 18mm, 12mm and 8mm with 200p Skyliner.

[sockgoblin]

I bought the BST Explorers to replace 12mm and 9mm GSO Revelation Plossls

Seeing was poor with a sky glow over the whole sky, it didn’t help that Morticia the Queen of the Security lights was out next door.

I could see Auriga and so went for M37.

Telrad – Finder scope- Vixen 30mm – BST 18mm. The 18mm framed the cluster perfectly filling 80% of the EP. I had ummed and ahhed about buying the 18mm, as when using my GSO Revelations I tend to go directly from 30mm to 12mm. But the decision to have spacing 18mm to 12mm to 8mm allows a sort of freeze-frame zoom into the target gradually filling the view and then diving into the DSO. The view was nice and bright , lovely.

Swopped for the 12mm, clean views into the cluster with good eye relief. That is where I would usually stop adding in power as using my 9mm GSO is hard work on DSOs but this time I popped in the 8mm.

Great stuff a deeper dive into the cluster, nice clear bright views and easy viewing because of the relaxed eye relief.

I very much recommend these eyepieces, they are a noticeable step up from my GSO Revelation plossls (which themselves are good Eps).

My only negative comment is that they are all a similar size and difficult to tell which is which in the dark, would be better with some sort of braille type nodules. (I may put a couple of drops of epoxy on the body of the Eps to help identify)

I’ve asked Mrs Sockgoblin for a 2 inch 31mm EP as a replacement for my 30mm Vixen for Xmas……we shall soon see if I’ve been a good boy this year.

[nightfisher]

Excellent, the 18mm is a star performer and the 12mm is very close in quality

[Paz]

Nice report, good luck with your Christmas presents!

[Timebandit]

Hi, well done. What I would suggest is that you repeat your test in different seeing conditions as from your report it seems to suggest the first light of the BST was carried out in less that perfect condition. It will be interesting to carry out another comparison in good seeing conditions. As in my experience an eyepiece optics really need to be seen and tested under good condition to really see how well the Optics are corrected and perform.  

. Nice initial report though. This seems to confirm other members experience of these eyepieces, that for the money they are very capable eyepieces. Probably for the newbie who wants a good step up in performance from the manufacturer supplied eyepieces with a new scope. Then the BST are seemingly the obvious choice for an improvement over stock eyepieces without stepping into the expensive world of televues.

Certainly a worthwhile addition to your eyepiece case☺

 

[sockgoblin]

16 minutes ago, Timebandit said:

Hi, well done. What I would suggest is that you repeat your test in different seeing conditions as from your report it seems to suggest the first light of the BST was carried out in less that perfect condition. It will be interesting to carry out another comparison in good seeing conditions. As in my experience an eyepiece optics really need to be seen and tested under good condition to really see how well the Optics are corrected and perform.  

. Nice initial report though. This seems to confirm other members experience of these eyepieces, that for the money they are very capable eyepieces. Probably for the newbie who wants a good step up in performance from the manufacturer supplied eyepieces with a new scope. Then the BST are seemingly the obvious choice for an improvement over stock eyepieces without stepping into the expensive world of televues.

Certainly a worthwhile addition to your eyepiece case☺

 

not much point in any more expensive EPs when Morticia the Enemy of Darkness is my neighbour.

[Timebandit]

1 hour ago, sockgoblin said:

not much point in any more expensive EPs when Morticia the Enemy of Darkness is my neighbour.

 

But the 200p is a great scope and very capable. If the seeing is that bad it does not matter which eyepieces you use , you just will not get the full benefits from them or that very capable 200p with lots of light pollution.

If I was you take a drive away from Morticia (the enemy of darkness ) and get to a darker location when you can. That way you can really stretch the legs on that 8" of light gathering ability of the 200p and get the best out of the BST eyepieces. As with most of the faint objects like  DSO , galaxy,the only way you are going to see them is from a dark site. Put the scope in the car and take a ride away from the light pollution, the 200p will then surprise you what it is capable of and open up a vast amount of DSO for you to see. Even if you can only go to a dark site once a month, it will be worth the effort 

I hope the above helps☺

[Charic]

3 hours ago, Timebandit said:

.......... in my experience an eyepiece optics really need to be seen and tested under good condition to really see how well the Optics are corrected and perform.............. the BST are seemingly the obvious choice for an improvement over stock eyepieces without stepping into the expensive world of televues.

 

 

The BST Explorer/Starguider's work well on the Skyliner, their flat-field 60° field of view is pretty much sharp to the edge, and personally, as I view mostly on axis, edge performance has never really  been of any real concern to me, or something that I have noticed much with the present eyepieces, but reading how the TeleVue's are so  fantastic, why do I see  some distortion at the extreme edge, it looked like coma?  Is the fov too much for my eyes, does the f/6 Skyliner make for a difficult time for the Delos? are the BST's that bad that its  just not visible, or better corrected to not show any  aberration, I doubt it! I'm not sure the BSTs get tested in the same way that TeleVue personally test their eyepieces at f/4, but BST are recommended for f/5 or greater.

I can vouch that the telescope and BSTs  work much better from a darker site, I think this applies to all telescopes.

You mentioned "obvious choice for an improvement". Their a great choice, there are others (untested by be)  but this only depends on the outcome of what you want and perceive after having looked through them.

With regards to  "expensive world" my TeleVue Delos EP's are still under test, but to-date, It's the Starguiders that win on price then performance?
IMHO the  8mm EPs work just as well as each other, the Delos provides me with a wider field of view, and more eye-relief, but if that's not required or undesirable, then the Delos could be a waste of money compared to the 8mm Starguider, but that's just my view, my opinion, my eyes, my conditions?

As always, we won't/don't  know until we have compared! 

[Stu]

36 minutes ago, Charic said:

The BST Explorer/Starguider's work well on the Skyliner, their flat-field 60° field of view is pretty much sharp to the edge, and personally, as I view mostly on axis, edge performance has never really  been of any real concern to me, or something that I have noticed much with the present eyepieces, but reading how the TeleVue's are so  fantastic, why do I see  some distortion at the extreme edge, it looked like coma?  Is the fov too much for my eyes, does the f/6 Skyliner make for a difficult time for the Delos? are the BST's that bad that its  just not visible, or better corrected to not show any  aberration, I doubt it! I'm not sure the BSTs get tested in the same way that TeleVue personally test their eyepieces at f/4, but BST are recommended for f/5 or greater.

I can vouch that the telescope and BSTs  work much better from a darker site, I think this applies to all telescopes.

You mentioned "obvious choice for an improvement". Their a great choice, there are others (untested by be)  but this only depends on the outcome of what you want and perceive after having looked through them.

With regards to  "expensive world" my TeleVue Delos EP's are still under test, but to-date, It's the Starguiders that win on price then performance?
IMHO the  8mm EPs work just as well as each other, the Delos provides me with a wider field of view, and more eye-relief, but if that's not required or undesirable, then the Delos could be a waste of money compared to the 8mm Starguider, but that's just my view, my opinion, my eyes, my conditions?

As always, we won't/don't  know until we have compared! 

The Delos have a wider apparent field of view than the BSTs Charic so will show more coma which comes from the mirror, not the eyepiece.

I was using a 24mm Panoptic in my f5.3 12" dob last night and the coma is certainly visible in the outer regions of the fov. I suspect that is just because the eyepiece is of sufficient quality to show the coma. I don't recall seeing it to the same degree in my 12" f6

[Charic]

....cheers Stu, yeah, aware its the scope. I had expected better from the TV eyepiece! Perhaps it is better, like you say, showing me what the BSTs are failing to show? Lol

[nightfisher]

18 hours ago, sockgoblin said:

not much point in any more expensive EPs when Morticia the Enemy of Darkness is my neighbour.

I have a wonderful neighbour like that, her kids dont pull the curtains and have light on at night hence i stick to Luna now

[sockgoblin]

On 24/12/2016 at 21:16, Charic said:

....cheers Stu, yeah, aware its the scope. I had expected better from the TV eyepiece! Perhaps it is better, like you say, showing me what the BSTs are failing to show? Lol

unless we can compare different ranges of EPs side by side then "we dont know what we dont know"... however what I do know and do like about the BSTs is the easier eye relief than the GSo Revelations Plossls and this factor alone will encourage me to work across the whole range of EPs . I tended to avoid using my 9mm GSO on anything other the the Moon and planets.

Regarding light pollution and the "evil harpie" , Ive built light screens and I use setting circles and yes I will make the effort to drive to Delamare Forest ( not a true dark site but certainly darker and only 15 mins away)

BTW Mrs Sockgoblin came up with the goods and I now have a skywatcher panaview 32mm . Flippin eck they are big beasts.

[Charic]

The Panaview is stunning. 

As for the GSO Revelations, I agree the Starguiders are far more comfortable but of all the Plossls I have used, the Revelations are my favourites.

The reason for the Plossl collection was because I had decided before scope ownership that a Plossl set would be part of my collection.

Whats more important now for me is just to use the right eyepiece for the moment, framing the target. Jupiter would be pointless in my 32mm yet M31 fills the view from a dark site under good seeing!

[sockgoblin]

19 hours ago, Charic said:

The Panaview is stunning. 

As for the GSO Revelations, I agree the Starguiders are far more comfortable but of all the Plossls I have used, the Revelations are my favourites.

The reason for the Plossl collection was because I had decided before scope ownership that a Plossl set would be part of my collection.

Whats more important now for me is just to use the right eyepiece for the moment, framing the target. Jupiter would be pointless in my 32mm yet M31 fills the view from a dark site under good seeing!

i agree that the Revelations are no slouches and I will be keeping them maybe to use in my Heritage 130 if i have a stereo scope evening

[ronl]

BST Starguider's, they love me and I love them, we suit each other, that's what counts.

[sockgoblin]

Tonight I gave the 18 and the 12mm another go

Using my new panaview 32mm to find the double cluster then I noticed that both EPs do exhibit field curvature in about the last ,outer, 30% of the view. It's a little distracting but the good image across the rest of the view is great.

Also found M76 the little dumbbell in the 32mm. Another one off the list

[Paul73]

Glad that the new eyepieces are getting a good workout. The BST's are indeed, top performers for the money.

I have tried the 8mm BST side by side with the 8mm Delos in a 250 SW Dob at f4.7  under OK sky's. The Delos (@6x the price) won. But it wasn't the walk over you might have expected; given the TV reputation & price.

Paul

[John]

1 hour ago, Paul73 said:

Glad that the new eyepieces are getting a good workout. The BST's are indeed, top performers for the money.

I have tried the 8mm BST side by side with the 8mm Delos in a 250 SW Dob at f4.7  under OK sky's. The Delos (@6x the price) won. But it wasn't the walk over you might have expected; given the TV reputation & price.

Paul

In what way did the Delos "win", allbeit in a small way, for you Paul ?

 

 

[Timebandit]

 

In my opinion. In doing a comparison of the eyepieces ability or doing a side by side comparison with another eyepiece. Then doing a test under uncertain or poor , average seeing is not really doing the eyepiece justice on what it can or cannot obtain. Yes you can see the fov of an eyepiece can achieve under uncertain seeing conditions, and you can check out  the eye relief to see if it's comparable to its rival. But when it comes to optical ability IMO this really does need to be done under good or great seeing conditions. You cannot judge an eyepiece sharpness and clarity under doubtful or average seeing conditions IMO. As the only way to test the optics ability is clear crisp seeing conditions. This way you can really see how well an eyepiece optics are corrected, made . You cannot check how a eyepiece will give a pinpoint clarity of sharpness of a planetary target or lunar if the atmosphere conditions are interfering with with the results of the eyepieces ability, seeing conditions play a very important and vital role in assessing a eyepiece and without these conditions in place IMO then a test of an eyepieces ability in regards to optical ability is uncertain at best.   

 A great eyepiece if used in a great scope will seemingly not be there. It will be like looking at the stars with mark one eyeballs but with an added magnification and a more limited fov, the eyepiece should disappear. I suppose you can make a comparison to say a speed boat. You may have a speed boat that is capable of well over 100 mph , but if the sea is choppy then the boat will be unsteady and all that power just cannot be used due to the sea conditions and therefore you may only be able to use 50mph. But if the sea conditions are  steady and flat, then the same speed boat power can be utilised to its maximum as the conditions allow this. Eyepieces are much the same, at the times of testing then atmosphere conditions/seeing conditions can either allow a full test of the eyepieces true ability or can hold back what may or may not be possible due to the conditions they are used/tested under 

But what does seem to be apparent is that the BST consistently gets good reviews at the price they are, and they do seem to give even more expensive eyepieces a run for there money. Therefore bang for buck an eyepiece that is certainly has to be at the top of its league. 

[John]

My experience of testing eyepieces for the forum tends to agree with Spaceboy's points above

Edit: I meant "Timebandit" rather than Spaceboy. Sorry TB

[Paul73]

20 hours ago, John said:

In what way did the Delos "win", allbeit in a small way, for you Paul ?

 

 

The Delos showed a touch more contrast and less light scatter from the brighter targets. I didn't notice much meaningful coma / aspheric aberration in either eyepiece (imho the two types of aberration work in tandem) with s the Delos just shading it. The Delos was the deepest (faintest star detectable) out of the four on test.

Both eyepieces scored well on comfort of use but were a bit fussy about eye placement with bright targets. Comfort of use is where they both excelled.

Conditions were OK. 7/10 for stability and transparency. NELM of 5.5. 

The small differences would have been extenuated under dark transparent sky, or in a faster scope. But, under "normal" uk back garden conditions, the BST smoked the Delos in the 'Bang for Buck' category.

Paul

[Charic]

I  prefer  side-by-side comparison tests, as they have a direct visual affect on the performance and outcome of an eyepiece. For me, its there and now, I take it or leave it? and given that my regular viewing conditions are less than ideal from my garden observatory, do I need a Delos when the BST ( there are other EP`s ) works so well for me! Just putting an expensive eyepiece in the system is not the magic fix some of us (me) expect.

I'm sure a Tele Vue Delos should better than an 8mm BST Starguider, but the proof is in the pudding!
Under my local conditions, I sense a wider field of view, and  just recently, a little more coma, which  has  been pointed out to me, is due to the Delois ability to detect the aberration inherent from the scope itself, and the fact that I'm looking at a much larger field, compared to my normal 60°afov. The image contrast looks about the same  for my eyes, from my garden, which makes my BST a winner on price and performance.

I've still not had a chance to test my Delos under pollution free skies.
My Delos was simply bought to compare against my 8mm BST, then three came along? along with my desire back then, to upgrade to an optically faster, larger scope, another reason to acquire some Delos EP's, but now there's  even more positives should I continue purchasing?   fixed 20mm eye-relief, Dioptrx, their reputation and so on!

I`m still not certain I will see much improvement over what I see now, between my 8mm BST/Delos even under better conditions! There are limits for any eyepiece/scope combination. What if I have not reached the BST's limit! will  they perform better than they do from the present site! Of course they do, well in a way they do?

I see more  things away from home than I  can see from my light polluted garden, but this is not just eyepiece quality/performance, its just an eyepiece doing its job under ideal conditions, any scope/EP combination will work well under these conditions. The better the conditions the better the visual results, but even  perfect conditions  can differ between  different folks assessment of  what is perfect?  For me, no man-made light pollution, a  windless, Moonless night seems like a great combination, and clear still air upper atmosphere would be nice, but under these conditions, the Milky way will cast me a body shadow, such is the brightness of the Milky Way, and we always talk of darker sites!

I read Timebandit's," the only way to test the optics ability is clear crisp seeing conditions ".  Although wishful, these conditions are far and few between for many folk, but when their good, their great ( my view of Jupiter is still memory etched, until the next time ).  I wonder if Tele Vue have wonderfully clear  skies all the time, or like most tests these days, their factory/laboratory tested with results to please the masses, just check fuel data reports for cars?

I've read some reports that with Tele Vue that you buy once, job done! in knowing that you may have bought/invested in the best there is ( user opinion) and it cant get any better ( user opinion ) and just the fact of  knowing you have the best, nothing else matters, and the EP will work its magic no matter what!

I quoted recently in another thread, that I'm glad I chose the eyepieces I have now, rather than just invested all-out, in Tele View, because their the best! ( ...my initial impression) 

Here's a thought!  What If your invited to a Star party,  your after a new 8mm eyepiece and someone was to ask you which eyepiece you prefer out of these?  a sort of blind test, not knowing the actual  eyepieces your looking through, you would opt for the one that worked the best (in your opinion) and maybe purchase that eyepiece at a later date? because in your opinion it worked so well on the night, out of all the others that you had looked through, not only that, they had the same scope that you use, its a no brainer!
 
What if that eyepiece was at my Star party, whatever the target, the scope is an f/6 F-1200 and I said it was an 8mm BST Starguider that you had chosen! would you be shocked?  It has been done? A BST was put among some serious premium eyepieces some time back at a Star party and the folk there were surprised with its performance. Again this is where I believe the proof is in the pudding, eyepieces will always be subjective, personal  and a bone of contention between  every individual who uses them. What works well for one, does nothing for another.

On paper BST or DELOS?......its the Delos!........ but side-by-side, from my garden, the Starguider works just fine.
My opinions may all change once I've had the opportunity to better assess what I have, and the sooner the better, its getting a little frustrating due to time constraints and conditions, but Winter is just about to start up here, so longer nights ahead, but I also have some other serious projects on the go at present, which all costs money!  

[ronl]

My thoughts too Charic, I look at it as "If the suit fits wear it", my Starguiders suit me and my

scope, very comfortable to use, and I am very happy with the great views I get from them, and

conditions and how dark your sky is, do play a big part for everyone.

[sockgoblin]

Ive now tried the 12mm with my Heritage 130p and it didnt play nice at all. The central vane and mirror kept appearing in the view and the curvature of the view was very apparent , my 12mm Revelation plossl is much better on the little scope

NB see the post below I have worked out what the problem is.

[John]

42 minutes ago, sockgoblin said:

Ive now tried the 12mm with my Heritage 130p and it didnt play nice at all. The central vane and mirror kept appearing in the view and the curvature of the view was very apparent , my 12mm Revelation plossl is much better on the little scope

Thats a very odd result

I thought the 12mm was pretty nice. If you said you were using a 40mm or longer focal length eyepiece I'd understand that you might be seeing shadows of the secondary etc but with a 12mm it's a little unusual.

Maybe you got a duff one ? (eyepiece)

[YKSE]

18 hours ago, sockgoblin said:

Ive now tried the 12mm with my Heritage 130p and it didnt play nice at all. The central vane and mirror kept appearing in the view and the curvature of the view was very apparent , my 12mm Revelation plossl is much better on the little scope

Have you bought the BSTs new?

One of the selling point of BST is that you can try first and decide later if you want to keep it or return it. There's actually EU internet perchase directive of 14-day return,

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm

Evaluating an eyepiece is very weather dependant, I think you should try to contact the seller to work out a solution satisfactory for both of you.