Mars's Moons

[alan potts]

I fully understand it is the wrong time to actually see such but that didn't stop me thinking it the other night whilst I was having a look at our distant neighbour. Has anyone seen the to moons or should I say lumps of rock that orbit Mars?

I had a really good try for the Moons of Uranus but our Moon had a say in the outcome, nonetheless I did feel I could see something but was not totally sure, this is something I will revisit later in the month.

Alan

[Space Hopper]

Found this. Plenty of good info for you.

http://www.observing.skyhound.com/shallow_sky/mars_moons.html

I would love to see them as well sometime.

But no go till a good opposition which means 2018.

The trick is to try and spot them around 30mins either side of an eastern / western elongation, as Mars is simply too bright otherwise.

As Deimos orbits further away from Mars, it makes it an easier catch.

And a 4 or 6 " scope will do the trick ?  I'm sure a night of good seeing will make all the difference of course.

[John]

Good question Alan - I think they are feasible targets but the time has to be right. Phobos and Deimos are certainly "on my list" so to speak

Having managed to see Neptune's brightest moon and a couple Urianan ones I'm keen to expand my planetary moon tally. The latter are pretty much averted vision targets for me BTW.

[jabeoo1]

I believe I did bag one of them Alan.  Details sketchy now and its a while back,  but I cross checked with redshift software at the time, and the position matched the view.   I spent a long while viewing the planet and then after some time I noticed the extra object in the field of view.  I did not go out with intention to see it but it dawned on me what it was after being sceptical at first.  It was in the 10 inch dob, that mirror has great coatings too!   

The view amounted to a very dark spot on a slightly darker background but undeniably there with direct vision. 

[Dave In Vermont]

CdC (Cartes du Ciel) tends to be good for Moon-Hunting. Though I haven't personally tried to bag any Martian Moons as of late. I just finished overhauling my BIG refractor though...

Happy hunting -

Dave

 

 

[alan potts]

Thanks for the replies, it is something to have a go at next time round so to speak, I imagine they are doable now if you happen to have a 200 inch reflector sitting in the garden doing nothing.

To follow up from what John was saying with regard to outer moons it to for me was without the luxury of direct vision. If however I manage to fine Uranus and Neptune in the 18 inch it may be possible with the our Moon safely tucked up in bed. Outside at the moment is more for Torvill and Dean than a scope as it has now rained onto a minus 6 concrete and I have an overwhelming urge to put Ravel's Bolero on the music system.

Minus 15 is on the cards for Saturday and that even here is getting chilly.

Alan.

[timwetherell]

I've never seen them but would definitely like to one day. What sort of aperture telescope do folks rekon would be needed? considering they were discovered with a 26" refractor! My feeling is that my 7" refractor wouldn't have a chance. I've seen triton with it in Australia when neptune was high in the sky and the seeing was good. Haven't as yet managed it from the UK. never had any Luck on Uranus' moons with that class of scope in either location though  

[alan potts]

22 minutes ago, timwetherell said:

I've never seen them but would definitely like to one day. What sort of aperture telescope do folks rekon would be needed? considering they were discovered with a 26" refractor! My feeling is that my 7" refractor wouldn't have a chance. I've seen triton with it in Australia when neptune was high in the sky and the seeing was good. Haven't as yet managed it from the UK. never had any Luck on Uranus' moons with that class of scope in either location though  

Tim, as i don't have a 26 inch inch refractor in the garden the 24 inch one will have to do. I can only really give it my best shot with either the 12 inch Meade or the 18 inch Sumerian, the latter is very good at showing difficult objects , this year alone I have bagged the centre star of M57 three times, the last time with fairly easy direct vision. John in the thread earlier has done two of the moons that orbit Uranus, on paper I should be able to equal that and maybe even get a third with the bigger scope. Neptune should also give up its moon to me, if I can find it that is. I may well requiire the help of a laptop and atlas program.

Alan

[niallk]

Great thread - I was only listening to a podcast about the moons of Mars when driving to work the other day, and similarly wondering if they were feasible targets!

Back at the start of October I think it was, I had a very good session one night, catching Triton and I believe 4 moons of Uranus (one was right on the limit of detection).

[alan potts]

1 hour ago, niallk said:

Great thread - I was only listening to a podcast about the moons of Mars when driving to work the other day, and similarly wondering if they were feasible targets!

Back at the start of October I think it was, I had a very good session one night, catching Triton and I believe 4 moons of Uranus (one was right on the limit of detection).

I had a feel I was seeing something around Uranus but with the Moon so close I was far from sure. With me it is more down to finding the dam planet in the first place with the Sumerian, it is too easy with the SC Meade, I'm sorry to say a good few years of pressing buttons have not helped my star hopping ability. I imagine with good skies here and a slightly larger scope I should be able to at least match what you have done, though I am still not having any luck with the Horses Head, if I find it i will turn it into sausages with my new machine, but maybe someone else got there first.

[triton1]

I heard that a occultation bar helps and as previously said they need to be either east or west directly.

[John]

I found that using pretty high magnifications helped to pick out Triton at Neptune (which I also managed once with my 5.1" refractor) and the Uranian pair of Titania and Oberon. I was using 318x and 454x to pick these up. The Pentax XW eyepieces showed them just a little easier than my Ethos of similar focal lengths did.

I always observe for a while and note the position of any "suspects" before consulting Cartes du Ciel to see where the moons actually are in relation to the planet. This way I try and avoid the risk of "averted imagination" kicking in !

 

[alan potts]

1 hour ago, John said:

I found that using pretty high magnifications helped to pick out Triton at Neptune (which I also managed once with my 5.1" refractor) and the Uranian pair of Titania and Oberon. I was using 318x and 454x to pick these up. The Pentax XW eyepieces showed them just a little easier than my Ethos of similar focal lengths did.

I always observe for a while and note the position of any "suspects" before consulting Cartes du Ciel to see where the moons actually are in relation to the planet. This way I try and avoid the risk of "averted imagination" kicking in !

 

Yes John, averted imagination is something I try very hard to avoid. I am not totally sure I pulled this off with M57 and the 12 inch scope as I have not seen it since with that even though I have looked a good number of times, however it was well over 30 hours before i actually said I saw it. Seen it well enough with the 18 inch though.

Going back to Uranus which I impossed a fine on in my last post, slipping onto the E instead of D, where have I seen that before. I was using the 10mm Ethos at the time which on the Meade give X304, so much the same as you were using  but maybe should have tried the 9mm BGO as well, I will try again tomorrow as it is just too icy outside at the moment and I need to clear the rails on the obsey so I can get the roof off. It is clear at the moment but already minus 5 and seeing is not looking wonderful judging by the scintillation on Rigel. I imagine when Sirius gets up it will look like Pink Floyd's mirror ball.

Alan

[niallk]

I was using a 6mm Ethos for Uranus's moons ~330x.  Me too: I studied them for ~20mins before pulling up Sky Safari to see if it showed the position pattern that I had seen. Titania, Oberon and Umbriel were pretty straightforward - and I saw them again 2 weeks ago, but I was delighted to see Miranda that night, indicated exactly where I thought I was detecting a moon - it was teasingly fleeting in averted vision as I moved my eye a little.  Triton on the other hand directly visible and obvious that night: seeing and transparency were for once decent It was a real thrill.  Definitely want to have a go at Phobos and Deimos!

[alan potts]

It is on my list to try both of these outer gas giants again very soon, the weather, as I said is not very nice at the moment though I was totally wrong with my scintillation guess on Sirius, at 1 o'clock it was beautifully still though it was also minus 12 and the bed was warm.

The strange thing is I have viewed both Uranus and Neptune many times over the years and never looked for anything because I guess I never really thought there was a chance of seeing the moons, it was only when John reported on them some time back I got interested. Most times I have viewed the two it has only been with maybe no more than around x200 plus or minus a bit. I can only ever recall going much above this with the SC scope when I have been either looking at Mars, which tends to need it, or the times I was hunting the centre star of M57, where I went to about the X360 mark in the shape of the 8mm  D & E, I had both at the time. Now though I have offloaded most of the Delos range which would have helped in the Dob, whilst I still have the range of Ethos down to 6mm, any slightly better eyepieces from the point of view of scatter and contrast that I have for seeing such faint moons only have the FOV of the BGO's I own. Sadly whilst these are very good eyepieces for higher powers, at X300 and above planets do rather take off a bit like jet aircraft in the FOV, this is of course so much easier to manage using the 100 degree range.

Alan 

[timwetherell]

On 12/16/2016 at 13:20, triton1 said:

I heard that a occultation bar helps and as previously said they need to be either east or west directly.

Perhaps? My experience with occultation bars looking for Sirius B were not that positive to be honest, the glare around the star wasn't significantly reduced. But perhaps the separation of Mars and its moons is greater than Sirius A/B separation? What made all the difference with Sirius was elevation and seeing. At zenith in Australia on a winter night B is quite easy to see sitting right there but same scope in the UK has had no luck as yet unfortunately. It's a pity mars is crawling along the horizon for us northern hemisphere folks at the moment!

[John]

1 hour ago, timwetherell said:

Perhaps? My experience with occultation bars looking for Sirius B were not that positive to be honest, the glare around the star wasn't significantly reduced. But perhaps the separation of Mars and its moons is greater than Sirius A/B separation? What made all the difference with Sirius was elevation and seeing. At zenith in Australia on a winter night B is quite easy to see sitting right there but same scope in the UK has had no luck as yet unfortunately. It's a pity mars is crawling along the horizon for us northern hemisphere folks at the moment!

I have similar experiences with occulting bars - basically they did not deliver the results with Sirus B. My 12" dob with an un-occulted (is that a word ???) 6mm eyepiece will show it though. Low-scatter eyepieces such as orthoscopics seem to work best on this target.

I'm hoping my 5.1 apo refractor will show "the Pup" as well, when I get suitable chance to try it.

[alan potts]

12 hours ago, timwetherell said:

Perhaps? My experience with occultation bars looking for Sirius B were not that positive to be honest, the glare around the star wasn't significantly reduced. But perhaps the separation of Mars and its moons is greater than Sirius A/B separation? What made all the difference with Sirius was elevation and seeing. At zenith in Australia on a winter night B is quite easy to see sitting right there but same scope in the UK has had no luck as yet unfortunately. It's a pity mars is crawling along the horizon for us northern hemisphere folks at the moment!

Tim,

I have split Sirius a good many times from here but I do have at least 10 degrees over any part of the UK. I have played a bit of a game with some of my scopes as I can tell what elevation they are at. I set myself the task of spliting A&B whilst it is within the range of elevation it reaches in the UK but of course from my garden here, I have managed it once in 3 years and upteen attempts, once it climbs about about 25 degrees it is much easier on a good night but for you to get that I think your feet would be wet or you would be in France.

Alan

[Maged]

Hello everybody, I am amazed to know that it is feasible to see moons of Mars in 10" dobsonian as I am struggling to even see the slightest details  on Mars it's self. I must be doing something wrong!

 

I would like also to add to the above .. Flawless collimation is a must ..

[John]

8 hours ago, Maged said:

Hello everybody, I am amazed to know that it is feasible to see moons of Mars in 10" dobsonian as I am struggling to even see the slightest details  on Mars it's self. I must be doing something wrong!

 

I would like also to add to the above .. Flawless collimation is a must ..

Things are different when Mars is at opposition. The apparent diameter of Mars at the next opposition will be 4 times larger than it appears right now. That will be in July 2018 so patience is needed !

[DeepSkyBagger]

On 16/12/2016 at 15:56, John said:

I found that using pretty high magnifications helped to pick out Triton at Neptune (which I also managed once with my 5.1" refractor) and the Uranian pair of Titania and Oberon. I was using 318x and 454x to pick these up. The Pentax XW eyepieces showed them just a little easier than my Ethos of similar focal lengths did.

I always observe for a while and note the position of any "suspects" before consulting Cartes du Ciel to see where the moons actually are in relation to the planet. This way I try and avoid the risk of "averted imagination" kicking in !

 

I've seen Triton around Neptune and Titania and Oberon around Uranus with a 12" reflector. As John said, high magnification was required.

[Maged]

19 hours ago, John said:

Things are different when Mars is at opposition. The apparent diameter of Mars at the next opposition will be 4 times larger than it appears right now. That will be in July 2018 so patience is needed !

Hello John, for me I couldn't even see details in Mars even during last year's opposition, and that could have been for many reasons such as my scope collimation, weather conditions, my eyes being not trained enough. The reason I am amazed is that I see many people and read in many articles and books that I should be seeing details on mars and I can't so I am trying to narrow down reasons that are preventing me from seeing details! it will be bad if it's all the above  

[alan potts]

With regards to Mars all of the points you mention can play a part.

If your eyes are old and tired, like mine, then there is not to much you can do to help that point but issues when glass will normally help can be got round as the scope focuses light for you. For things like astigmatism you can buy correction lens for the most expensive eyepieces made by TeleVue. I do not know if other companies make these.

Correct collimation of you scope is vital to get the best out of it. Only a few weeks back I took time to adjust my 12 inch SC which is in an observatory, I couldn't believe the difference after and I didn't really feel there was anything that wrong with it in the first place.

Weather also plays a major part not only here on earth, Mars has storms too. I find one of the biggest problems with Mars is. it needs power, maybe up to X300 and this can be too much for the quality oif the seeing on the night you are out.

Mars can test the most experienced observer and it only offers its details at the best seeing moment, hang in there it is really worth waiting for when everything comes together, I was not a fan but got fairly well hooked on it this year.

Alan

[Maged]

On 12/22/2016 at 15:41, alan potts said:

With regards to Mars all of the points you mention can play a part.

If your eyes are old and tired, like mine, then there is not to much you can do to help that point but issues when glass will normally help can be got round as the scope focuses light for you. For things like astigmatism you can buy correction lens for the most expensive eyepieces made by TeleVue. I do not know if other companies make these.

Correct collimation of you scope is vital to get the best out of it. Only a few weeks back I took time to adjust my 12 inch SC which is in an observatory, I couldn't believe the difference after and I didn't really feel there was anything that wrong with it in the first place.

Weather also plays a major part not only here on earth, Mars has storms too. I find one of the biggest problems with Mars is. it needs power, maybe up to X300 and this can be too much for the quality oif the seeing on the night you are out.

Mars can test the most experienced observer and it only offers its details at the best seeing moment, hang in there it is really worth waiting for when everything comes together, I was not a fan but got fairly well hooked on it this year.

Alan

Hi Alan,

thanks for the advice. Can you share a link to the astigmatism correctors? I have astigmatism but I'm not sure if it is that bad. 

[alan potts]

9 hours ago, Maged said:

Hi Alan,

thanks for the advice. Can you share a link to the astigmatism correctors? I have astigmatism but I'm not sure if it is that bad. 

I have no idea how to make a link so I can't, just look at the TeleVue website but I warn you now nothing there is cheap. I don't know of any other make, maybe start a thread on corrects, someone will know if other exist.

Alan