Computer for Image Capture

[Gina]

Firstly, I'm not sure this is the best place for this thread so mods/admin please feel free to move it if you feel it would be more appropriate in another forum.  Thank you

Following on from my thread "Thoughts about which imaging rigs to concentrate on", I'm trying to sort out a computer to use in my observatory scope room to capture images and control the equipment. 

I'm currently using a laptop running Windows 7 placed on a stand beside my pier covered with a towel to keep dew off when the roof is open but it's giving problems and I don't think it's a good environment for it.  I bought a mini PC box to replace it but I'm having problems getting it to work.  More details coming up shortly...

Edited December 12, 2016 by Gina

[RobRob]

I recently attached an Intel NUC PC to my pier to reduce USB cable length (and therefor I/O errors). I7 processor, 16GB RAM and 850 SSD harddisk running Windows 10 with Sequence Generator Pro and PHD2. Stellarium and Stellarium Scope for finding new targets. It is running my EQ8, with 3 scopes, Arduino based auto focussers and ZWO ASI 1600mm - Cool.

 

[xanthic]

I'm now using a Sumvision Cyclone Mini PC 2. It's a quad core Intel Atom with 2 GB RAM, 32 GB disk. Very cheap as a Windows 10 license is free for that spec machine. I've turned off all unnecessary services and it happily runs SG Pro and PHD2, Carte du Ciel with EQMOD. I just VNC to it to run the scope. It's worth having one of these - Headless Ghost. It makes sure the video drivers load and you don't get stuck with a tiny screen resolution.

[Gina]

The mini PC I bought is this one - BoLv Z8700 Mini PC Beelink Z8700 MINI BOX / Win 10 64 bit OS.   It has a good spec for the price and is a nice compact box.  The main problem with it seems to be Windows 10 which has a mind of its own   I tried loading all the software I need for imaging and mount control etc. and in spite of Win10 trying hard to stop me, I pretty much succeeded by a round-about route.  But there are oodles of errors which seem to need purchased software to fix   And the dreaded bluescreen is back!!!

I could continue and try to get Win 10 to behave but I'm not sure I feel like fighting Microsoft at every turn!  No, on second thoughts, I'm sure I don't feel like fighting Microsoft!!!  Win 7 might be a possibility but I feel more inclined to try and get Linux into it.  I tried with Linux Mint from a USB stick but couldn't get it to work.  Could try again with another distro.

 

[xanthic]

I'd love to use linux as the OS on mine but there isn't a great deal of astro software that'll run on it, compared to Windows. If you can let us know the specific problems you are having, I'm sure someone on here can help out. I've had a couple of issues with mine, the first was the anniversary patch. I had to download a specific installer to get it on, else it bleated about a lack of disk, despite there being plenty. The other problem was it overwriting the driver for the EQMOD adaptor. I found an MS tool that'll put drivers on a block list and not update them at every opportunity - https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3073930

[Gina]

Thank you for the offer of help Leigh - much appreciated

I'm already using Linux for astro imaging and control on my all sky camera using the ZWO ASI178MM camera and Raspberry Pi 3.  The data rate is adequate for this camera but I don't think it's fast enough to handle the ASI1600MM-Cool camera I'm using for my DSO imaging.  I would need to handle 32MB in a few seconds.  The software is INDI server on the RPi and KStars/Ekos on my indoors Linux Mint desktop.  INDI not only captures images but controls Peltier TEC cooling for the camera and dew heating.

For the main imaging rig I use for DSO imaging, INDI can also control the mount and camera focus etc.  Everything is included in the software - no need for multiple software like you need in Windows.  The hardware data collection and control uses the INDI software as a remote server and KStars/Ekos handles the user interface and sequencing.  This software is open source and free.

KStars does the star charts and position control like CdC etc. and Ekos controls things like focussing and other control functions.  One section of KStars handles sequencing commands controlling exposure, filter, focussing offset for different filters and data capture from the camera in conjunction with Ekos which interfaces between the sequencer and all the hardware by sending commands over the LAN to the INDI server.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Gina

[xanthic]

Thanks for pointing me towards that software. That'll be worth a look if I need to revisit the platform I'm using. I think I looked at KStars a few years ago and it seems to have come on a long way.

[riklaunim]

14 minutes ago, Gina said:

I'm already using Linux for astro imaging and control on my all sky camera using the ZWO ASI178MM camera and Raspberry Pi 3.  The data rate is adequate for this camera but I don't think it's fast enough to handle the ASI1600MM-Cool camera I'm using for my DSO imaging.  I would need to handle 32MB in a few seconds.

Theoretically even USB 1.1 would work but the download time would be very long and impractical. As an all sky camera ASI178 doesn't have to send a lot of frames so RPi isn't capping it limits. Those frames also aren't saved so there is no storage problems (like if you would want to have like 30FPS uncompressed footage of the whole night - that would be a lot of GB of data).

Nettops or mini-PC are good but you should avoid those smallest ones that don't have SATA III or M.2 slots. They also should have a proper set of USB3 (2) ports for USB3 cameras and so on. Smaller mini PCs could be embedded system based on Intel ultramobile chips (Braswell and alike) - those may have fixed storage and limited USB options / compatibility (weird OTG or something) or even Windows versions that is feature-limited that would make running such custom hardware hard or impossible. Normal Windows system must "works". If it makes problems - something is wrong and it should be solved in a better way than changing the OS straight away and dumping all the astro-apps it offers.

Edited December 12, 2016 by riklaunim

[Gina]

The mini PC box I have uses SATA III and has 3 USB 3 ports plus dual-band WiFi and gigabit Ethernet - I use gigabit Ethernet for my LAN link to the observatory and other machines indoors. 

As for Windows v Linux, swapping apps in Windows for the different functions I find a bit tedious - KStars/Ekos/INDI is so much easier and installation is far more straightforward.  At least is seems so to me.  The Linux system puts the image files directly on the HD of my main machine ready for processing whereas having the data stored on the remote machine means it has to be downloaded separately.

[xanthic]

You've piqued my interest. Might spin up a VM and have a look...

[Gina]

I think I may have found the reason I was having difficulty installing Linux on the Beeline box.  It seems recent Windows machines have a so called "safety" feature which prevents anything other than a Microsoft registered OS from being installed.

Quote

New Windows PCs come with UEFI firmware and Secure Boot enabled. Secure Boot prevents operating systems from booting unless they’re signed by a key loaded into UEFI — out of the box, only Microsoft-signed software can boot.

More info HERE

Edited December 12, 2016 by Gina

[Dave Lloyd]

It's for your own good Gina, Microsoft are only looking after your interests.

I almost kept a straight face.

[Gina]

Har har har ...

[Gina]

Been looking through the thread and which problems I got with Win 10.  I've mentioned a few and another is that it didn't recognise the camera from SharpCap.  Anyway, I'm going to try to install Linux maybe as a dual boot setup initially and later if/when I've got the Linux side working I can reclaim the Windows partition - if I bother.  With Linux only the drivers reside on the remote PC with the star map etc. on the client machine indoors.

[michael8554]

9 hours ago, xanthic said:

I'd love to use linux as the OS on mine but there isn't a great deal of astro software that'll run on it, compared to Windows. If you can let us know the specific problems you are having, I'm sure someone on here can help out. I've had a couple of issues with mine, the first was the anniversary patch. I had to download a specific installer to get it on, else it bleated about a lack of disk, despite there being plenty. The other problem was it overwriting the driver for the EQMOD adaptor. I found an MS tool that'll put drivers on a block list and not update them at every opportunity - https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3073930

Microsoft admitting that their intrusive updates cause driver problems?    There's a first......!

Michael

[riklaunim]

10 hours ago, Gina said:

 I've mentioned a few and another is that it didn't recognise the camera from SharpCap.

 

Did you tried to debug the problem? Check Sharpcap logs? Windows devices list and other apps?

[Gina]

I think I did but can't remember now - I shall be trying again shortly.  I have other ZWO cameras so will be able to test it indoors.

[Gina]

With a lovely clear night sky I set up for imaging with my Windows 7 laptop.  Setting up went fine and all seemed well until I tried DSO imaging when it got dark then SharpCap stopped working and APT refused to work too.  Tried rebooting but no difference.  This has worked in the past when the software wouldn't work.  I think there must be something wrong with the laptop but I don't know what and I haven't got another Windows laptop so I'm looking again at the little Windows 10 box.

[Gina]

Decided to open up the case and take a look inside with the thought of reprogramming the SSD but after a struggle to get inside I was amazed to find no SSD   and in fact, no identifiable storage device of any sort!  There's a circuit board with a couple of chips on plus a large (compared with the size of case) copper finned heat sink and a tiny fan at one end.  I presume this is on top of a large chip that contains both processor and memory devices. 

I imagine it uses EEPROM as software can be loaded and remain after power is removed.  The OS could be EPROM or ROM and that might explain why I can't replace the Win 10 OS with anything else.

I guess tonight is a total loss as far as imaging is concerned but I shall have to find some way of getting into business with imaging soon - missing all these clear skies is going to drive me up the wall!

[Gina]

As posted in another thread, the laptop problem was cold - warmed it up and all was well

Back on topic...  I was misled by the description of the mini PC box - said it had a 64GB SSD when it actually hasn't!!

Quote

BoLv Z8700 Mini PC Beelink Z8700 MINI BOX / Win 10 64 bit OS | MINI Computer Windows10 PC with Intel Atom X7-Z8700 Processor 2M Cache, up to 2.40 GHz, DDR3 4GB, 64GB SSD, Intel HD Graphics, Dual WiFi, Gigabit,USB 3.0, HDMI, SD, Bluetooth, Windows 10 home set-top box

 

[Gina]

If I use this mini PC I might have to warm it unless the internal fan is temperature controlled - I should have bought a fanless one probably, though I don't think there was a suitable one at the time.  Now Amazon are selling a Minix mini PC which I think would do everything I want and a bit cheaper.  That sort of thing often happens - shortly after buying one item another better and cheaper becomes available!!  Either that or you deliberate for too long and the one you were looking at is sold out!

[Davey-T]

Ha ha, know what you mean, the times I've uhmd and ahhd about whether to buy something then when I decide to buy it they're sold out 

Dave

[Marci]

On 27/12/2016 at 11:30, Gina said:

said it had a 64GB SSD when it actually hasn't!!

Probably has a mini PCI-E SSD rather than looks-like-a-hdd 2.5" drive style... ala MacBook Pro. These actually tend to bench as faster than equivalent SATA versions.

Get me a top down foto of the whole main board & I can confirm either way.

EDIT: ignore me - it uses eMMC - http://www.howtogeek.com/196541/emmc-vs.-ssd-not-all-solid-state-storage-is-equal/

Have you tried booting a live Linux image from external storage to see what happens rather than installing locally?

Am guessing you'll need to identify the xHCI controller and build a USB-booting install image of whatever OS including the driver for that controller to get it to work (bit like having to provide raid drivers on a floppy back in days of yore!).

Because it uses a Cherry Trail SoC processor, you’ll likely be limited to Windows 8 or 10 - think Bay Trail processors were the last real chance to install Win 7. Intel certainly don’t seem to provide any platform drivers for the Atom Z8700 which suggests a complete no-go for Win7. In terms of Linux support, you’re pretty much limited to community-hacked ISOs only, no official distributions. All in all it’s the Atom SoC platform that’ll be your main issue, rather than the SSD / storage. My suggestion? If you need more grunt than an RPi3, get an old MacMini and throw Win7 or Linux on that.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Marci

[Gina]

Thanks Marci   I'll take a photo.  Yes, I tried booting a live Linux Mint from a USB stick, it seemed to start then stopped.  I now have other Linux distros I can try.

[Marci]

Sorry - edited. Reread!