Messier Memory Problem

[mikey2000]

I keep revealing my newb-ishness!

 

Is it just me or is it really hard to remember which Messier object people are talking about when using only numbers????  I just opened a wonderful pic post of M45 and was very pleased to recognise the Pleiades.   I never look up at the sky and think, "Oh, there is M45".  It's always, "Oh, I can see the Pleides tonight" or, "I wish my scope was good enough to look at the crab nebula" (not M1) (I had to look that up)

 

So do you think in Messier Numbers or Object Names?  For us newbies, maybe using both would be useful...  I can see how the M numbers give a useful shorthand once you get used to them.

 

I suspect we may have some members who are well versed in HIP numbers.  I bow to their greater sky knowledge!  One day, I will get there...

[Knighty2112]

I guess I think in both at the same time. My memory isn't that great to remember all the Messier numbers, all except the most famous and noticible ones anyway.

[mikeDnight]

If its a spectacular M object such as the Orion nebula I might think or speak of it by its name, but generally I think of them in terms of their M designations. Many objects simply don't warrant having a name, so numbers are all they are given.

I really wouldn't worry about it too much, as it will become second nature to you pretty rapidly, especially if you decide to check out a few Messier objects each time you go out observing. Checking your star atlas for two or three potential targets to hunt each clear night, and relocating these objects on subsequent nights is the best way to become familiar with the objects designation and position.

Mike

[Paul73]

Don't worry. It just sort of happens over time. I can only remember the interesting ones...... 

Paul

 

[acey]

Names are useful as long as there's only one name per object and everyone agrees on the name. For example, does the "Pinwheel Galaxy" mean M101 (as it usually does now) or M33 (as it did previously)  or M99 (which was the first to get the nickname)? Should we call the Owl Cluster the ET Cluster, or the Phi Cas Cluster - or should we call it NGC 457? That's why catalogue numbers were invented. There are so many things up there, it's impossible to remember the name of everything. But agreeing on names makes the task easier, and catalogue numbers (M, NGC etc) are the names with widest agreement. The internet has produced a deluge of new nicknames - making it all the more important to preserve Messier and NGC numbers, so that we all know what we're talking about. No need to remember everything - that's what notebooks are for.

[Putaendo Patrick]

I doubt you're the first to struggle with the rather confusing Messier numbers.

Some of the popular names were coined by the likes of Admiral Smyth, Lord Rosse or George Chambers, top astronomers in the 19th century, and have stuck. If it was good enough for them..... it'll do for me!

Others pre-date Messier by centuries, some names in continual use since Classical antiquity.

And anyway, all of the Messiers have alternative numberings, for example NGC from Draper's New General Catalogue.

So I reckon use what you best remember for yourself - and reference to the M numbers only to avoid ambiguity.

[SonnyE]

I tend to use both. The actual name is classical. But when using Stellarium, using the M-word, C-word, or NGC-word, to search is so much faster to locate or relocate an object.

So I've become somewhat bi-lingual in that of late I was imaging C-11. Fast to enter, fast to find.

But it is The Bubble Nebula when discussed. For a 2-fingered hunt and pecker typist like me, the number entry is faster.

In the last 1 1/2 years of imaging, I've learned more about the night skies and the landmarks than ever before in my life.

And this is actually my 3rd year of following M-42. The Hunter, Orion's Nebula, Horsehead and Flame Nebulae and Alnitak are the reason I'm stuck in this vortex of ancient lights.

I consider many of them old friends as I watch them rise and cross the night skies. I don't even let the clouds perturb me anymore, I know I'll still be looking up when they are gone.

Edit In: And another reason I like to image is to have a souvenir of where I've been.

[Dave In Vermont]

Let's see here.....

TUMOLv33Win.zip

This is the zip-file for TUMOL by David Paul Green at davidpaulgreen.com - which is well worth a visit for his free astronomy software. I'd have simply linked you to this, rather than load it here, but his site is being updated at present - but do check later.

The Ultimate Messier Object List - TUMOL for short - is a nice piece of software with many nice features to help you in your quest for the Messier-Objects. And it even gives you a nice desktop shortcut. Just unzip this and install as indicated.

I've had this for quite awhile, and I just swept it with Kaspersky's Anti-Virus and Malewarebytes - 100% bug-free, so no worries. It's 40.1 MB, download will take a few minutes.

Hope you like it as much as I -

Dave

[Moonshane]

Some remember ten some some a hundred some maybe a thousand but that's still just a small fraction of those visible in even at modest scope.

So does it matter really?  Not in my book. And there's your answer.  Use a book,   namely any decent star map which will have more objects listed than you will ever see.

[barkis]

I have an old Messier Album with all his discoveries in there, I used to use it regularly, and you soon start to associate 
the Numbers with the objects. Let's not forget that Messier's task he set himself, was merely to Isolate, and catalogue these objects so he
did not mistake them for Comets, which was what he was mainly interested in.  One could say, how could he mistake a small star cluster for a comet,
the answer being, his instrument didn't have the resolving power to isolate the stars, therefore he only saw a misty patch of light.
Of course now we now  benefit from his endeavours .
Also, we ought not to forget how much we owe to those very early astronomers, who worked diligently to 
catalogue the skies of both hemispheres,  mapping the skies with decent equipment,
but nothing as sophisticated as the modern marvels at the disposal of the scientist.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

1 minute ago, barkis said:

I have an old Messier Album with all his discoveries in there, I used to use it regularly, and you soon start to associate 
the Numbers with the objects. Let's not forget that Messier's task he set himself, was merely to Isolate, and catalogue these objects so he
did not mistake them for Comets, which was what he was mainly interested in.  One could say, how could he mistake a small star cluster for a comet,
the answer being, his instrument didn't have the resolving power to isolate the stars, therefore he only saw a misty patch of light.
Of course now we now  benefit from his endeavours .
Also, we ought not to forget how much we owe to those very early astronomers, who worked diligently to 
catalogue the skies of both hemispheres,  mapping the skies with decent equipment,
but nothing as sophisticated as the modern marvels at the disposal of the scientist.

Actually, this is not quite accurate. He certainly started out wanting to list non-cometary fuzzy objects, but became more and more interested in the objects themselves. He also liked publishing the list with a fairly round number of objects, hence the inclusion of the Pleiades (M45) in the first version. The Pleiades are resolved without the need of any instrument. BTW, they are the only Messier object without an NGC number.

 

I generally have few problems identifying Messier  objects by both numbers and names, although some are confusing (like the Pin-wheel Galaxy). Once you are long enough in the business you remember the memorable ones in any case. People often overlook M43, however, just because they think it is part of mighty M42

[John]

Pleiades, Seven Sisters, Messier 45, M45, Melotte 22, Soraya (Persia), Subaru (Japan) - It could get confusing !

As long as it's one of the 1st 4 terms listed I can cope.

What I do find confusing is when people refer to an object in a shorthand way such as "I've just seen Andromeda" meaning Messier 31 or the Andromeda Galaxy. I occasionally have to resist a pedentic reply ! 

 

 

[Davesellars]

Always numbers apart from some of the big ones.  Just using names can often be ambiguous and the name can often be different depending on the atlas.... this is particularly the case when it comes to objects outside of the Messier catalogue.

[barkis]

I have Burnham's Celestial Handbooks too, try wading through that lot .

[rockystar]

I think you soon get used to the popular ones, and the are plenty of resources available to quickly look up the ones you don't know.

[Putaendo Patrick]

2 hours ago, John said:

Pleiades, Seven Sisters, Messier 45, M45, Melotte 22, Soraya (Persia), Subaru (Japan) - It could get confusing !

Subaru? Really, who would name a cluster after a car? 

In fact the IAU are in the process of "officializing" different names as used by different cultures, so it could get more confusing in the future.

[SonnyE]

Just a thought here. While I do like books, for the last 26 odd years I've been involved with computers and the Internet. I have come to appreciate the updating found within the electronic words there in, and the wide searches to view.

I can customize my views in Stellarium in ways to give me only Messier, or Caldwell's, or NGC's, or none of the above, or all of the above. Or the "Johnny come Lately's" of other cataloging of Space objects clamoring for 15 seconds of fame.... (There are 15 catalogs listed and instantly available to me in Stellarium... That is far more than opening moves of Chess Masters.)

The electronics available are amazing. (We are talking on the Internet....   ) I also have my Library in my pocket.

It's on my Smarter-Than-Me-Phone, in an application called Kindle.

No need to fire up the lorry and rumble down to the Library...

[DeepSkyBagger]

10 hours ago, michael.h.f.wilkinson said:

Actually, this is not quite accurate.  <snip> The Pleiades are resolved without the need of any instrument. BTW, they are the only Messier object without an NGC number.

 

Actually, this is not quite accurate, either. There are three Messier objects that do not appear in the NGC. These are M25, M40 and M45 (if you ignore the 'missing' M91 and M102, which have fairly definitely been identified now).

M25 is IC 4725, for some reason it didn't make it into the NGC, despite being a fairly easy-to-spot open cluster. M40 is just a pair of stars.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

1 hour ago, DeepSkyBagger said:

Actually, this is not quite accurate, either. There are three Messier objects that do not appear in the NGC. These are M25, M40 and M45 (if you ignore the 'missing' M91 and M102, which have fairly definitely been identified now).

M25 is IC 4725, for some reason it didn't make it into the NGC, despite being a fairly easy-to-spot open cluster. M40 is just a pair of stars.

I had forgotten boring old M40, and indeed M25 is an IC object

[mikey2000]

Thankyou for all the replies!  It seems I will become familiar with all the 'best sights' soon enough, whatever we choose to call them.

 

I am totally sold on the Electronic Library idea.  I've been using my iPad with Stellarium installed.  I can zoom the view to match what I see in the scope then star-hop from there. The only catch is if I need to pop-up the keyboard or accidentally app-switch.  When that happens, it's "Goodbye night vision!".  So I can still see a place for paper star maps....

 

I'll have to go and look to see if Stellarium can print.

[SonnyE]

2 hours ago, mikey2000 said:

Thankyou for all the replies!  It seems I will become familiar with all the 'best sights' soon enough, whatever we choose to call them.

 

I am totally sold on the Electronic Library idea.  I've been using my iPad with Stellarium installed.  I can zoom the view to match what I see in the scope then star-hop from there. The only catch is if I need to pop-up the keyboard or accidentally app-switch.  When that happens, it's "Goodbye night vision!".  So I can still see a place for paper star maps....

 

I'll have to go and look to see if Stellarium can print.

I don't know if Stellarium can be printed either. But I do use it to slew my telescope to the targets, and it has been doing a bang-on job at it.

I'm PC so I can't tell you much about iPad use, other than I like the star program I put on the wife's iPad. (Yeah, we have a divided household where operating systems are concerned. )

Have fun, and ask questions.

[DeepSkyBagger]

3 hours ago, mikey2000 said:

Thankyou for all the replies!  It seems I will become familiar with all the 'best sights' soon enough, whatever we choose to call them.

 

I am totally sold on the Electronic Library idea.  I've been using my iPad with Stellarium installed.  I can zoom the view to match what I see in the scope then star-hop from there. The only catch is if I need to pop-up the keyboard or accidentally app-switch.  When that happens, it's "Goodbye night vision!".  So I can still see a place for paper star maps....

 

I'll have to go and look to see if Stellarium can print.

If you use ANY app (including Stellarium) without a proper red filter over the screen, then you'll never get any night vision. Those screens emit continuum, even if you have it switched to the utterly useless 'night vision mode'. NEVER use a night vision setting if you need to be dark-adapted. Buy some Rubylith (ebay or Amazon) and stick a sheet of that over your screen. Top Tip.

[LukeSkywatcher]

I use either the Messier number or the "popular" name. Im more familiar with the full name of most rather than the "M" classification (but comfortable with both). If you ask me about the NGC, i really dont have a clue.

I call M45 "The Seven Sisters", (the Greek legend is 5 sisters and mum and dad), because i cant spell   Pleiades without googling it.

Betelguese = Beetlejuice (have to google that one also).

Its a term of endearment though similar to "Joop" for Jupiter.

There is no right nor wrong. Everyone knows what each other means in any words.

Saturn = WOW. 

 

[rockystar]

don't know about Stellarium, but you can Print maps from Cartes Du Ceil.

also some good, printable stuff here: http://www.deepskywatch.com/deepsky-guide.html

kk

[mikey2000]

On 09/12/2016 at 05:38, Dave In Vermont said:

Let's see here.....

TUMOLv33Win.zip

This is the zip-file for TUMOL by David Paul Green at davidpaulgreen.com - which is well worth a visit for his free astronomy software. I'd have simply linked you to this, rather than load it here, but his site is being

Dave

Thanks Dave! I got the download OK (and no virus/malware found)   It looks really good.  I rather like the 'tick list' I can complete as I work may way through.