Problems with the andromeda galaxy

[Adamchiv]

I went outside again tonight with the scope because it was a lovely clear night, although after setting up the usual mist began to form. 

I knew that andromeda was right overhead in the sky so thought it would be the perfect time to view it. I dont have goto and the sky in central manchester is obviously heavily light polluted, orion was showing all the main stars, polaris, and the big dipper, pleiades were all pretty bright. Probably one of the better nights of the year Id say, stellarium light pollution 8 seems to replicate it fairly well (which shows how bad it is)

So I pointed the finder scope to what was certainly the right area on a 25mm ep, after a lot of fiddling im 99% sure it was within the eyepiece somewhere. Bearing in mind all the tiny invisible stars show up that the naked eye cant see I was sort of hopeful. 

What I can say is I couldnt anywhere near see a clear galaxy, I did however see a very thin disc shape, which didnt make sense as the disc part isnt gonna be visible here and it would be large and apparent. I steadied the scope and the disc shape was actually 2 tiny stars like a binary system, but it did look like a disc of sorts from the corner of my eye. 

If you have stellarium on android andromeda when zoomed in has 2 dots as the core, in fact im sure its a double core galaxy.

Im not at all confident it was andromeda, to be honest I dont know what to expect in this sky, not sure what it would look like or even if its visible. The fact that all the tiny stars around it are visible makes me think it should also be visible.

Please help

** just realised I was looking at the area around ųand. I wasnt far enough over I dont think, if anyone has any tips on how to find andromeda with minimal pointer stars that would be a big help, all I could see was mirach and a very very dim ųand

[Charic]

Hi there.

On a recent thread I  tried to simulate where M31 is, if this helps?

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/280999-m31-or/

I use Cassiopeia as my guiding stars to Mirach, then back a bit. From polluted skies, not much fun, but from a darker site, fill your view finder, the difference is stunning.

[Adamchiv]

3 minutes ago, Charic said:

Hi there.

On a recent thread I  tried to simulate where M31 is, if this helps?

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/280999-m31-or/

I use Cassiopeia as my guiding stars to Mirach, then back a bit. From polluted skies, not much fun, but from a darker site, fill your view finder, the difference is stunning.

Thanks, I think its just the fact that I can only see the first pointer star and wasnt going far enough across again, its very difficult on a cold night with this much light pollution. I will try again tommorow, Im half tempted to use the setting circles but.....surely they are useless on an eq2 mount

[D4N]

I use  Cassiopeia to point in the general direction then the line of Mirach through Mu Andromeda same distance and just to the right of Nu Andromeda.

 

It shouldn't look like two dots, the core is pretty big and I don't think you could mistake it for a star.  If seeing is poor you probably won't see M32 or M110 but M31 can be seen in pretty poor skies to some extent.

[D4N]

12 minutes ago, Adamchiv said:

Thanks, I think its just the fact that I can only see the first pointer star and wasnt going far enough across again, its very difficult on a cold night with this much light pollution. I will try again tommorow, Im half tempted to use the setting circles but.....surely they are useless on an eq2 mount

Yes the setting circles are mostly decorative on the eq2, I've never managed to get them to work properly on mine.

I found my Rigel quickfinder made it much easier to find things, you can work out how big the circle is and get an idea where to place your pointer stars to get things in the field of view.

[noah4x4]

I spent a couple of hours out tonight under clear, but light polluted urban skies. The Orion Nebula and the four tiny stars that form the Trapezium at its centre was super tonight in my 8" Evolution, but I could only barely make out the bright core of the Andromeda Galaxy.  Other  nebula and galaxies were also pretty obscure. Albeit the best night for a month, it was still not ideal for even a town location. We need it to go even colder and less humid.

[Charic]

...when you find it, you`ll always find it. M31 is so large, yet so diffuse,  under certain conditions?
From my back yard,  the Mrs was not impressed, neither was I for that matter thinking that of all the hype that exists for the 8" Skyliner there was something not quite right here, there was this tiny little grey smudge, just about visible.
The next view from a darker site, my 25mm was not wide enough, so I bought the 32mm 70° Panaview, now I can see M31 ( from an unpolluted site)

[Stub Mandrel]

Hmm, Andromeda was a big oval smudge in my 8x42 bins tonight and my skies aren't great. I follow the stars from Alpheratz (the star shared by andromeda and the 'box' of Pegasus) to Mirach, up one bright star, up as far again and Andromeda is there above two less bright stars.

[Adamchiv]

13 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Hmm, Andromeda was a big oval smudge in my 8x42 bins tonight and my skies aren't great. I follow the stars from Alpheratz (the star shared by andromeda and the 'box' of Pegasus) to Mirach, up one bright star, up as far again and Andromeda is there above two less bright stars.

Yeah its safe to say I cocked it up tonight, always tommorow though 

[Adamchiv]

25 minutes ago, Charic said:

...when you find it, you`ll always find it. M31 is so large, yet so diffuse,  under certain conditions?
From my back yard,  the Mrs was not impressed, neither was I for that matter thinking that of all the hype that exists for the 8" Skyliner there was something not quite right here, there was this tiny little grey smudge, just about visible.
The next view from a darker site, my 25mm was not wide enough, so I bought the 32mm 70° Panaview, now I can see M31 ( from an unpolluted site)

The 25mm wasnt wide enough? is it that big in a dark sky? thats pretty cool. I think when I do get it, it will be a tiny little oval

[Adamchiv]

27 minutes ago, noah4x4 said:

I spent a couple of hours out tonight under clear, but light polluted urban skies. The Orion Nebula and the four tiny stars that form the Trapezium at its centre was super tonight in my 8" Evolution, but I could only barely make out the bright core of the Andromeda Galaxy.  Other  nebula and galaxies were also pretty obscure. Albeit the best night for a month, it was still not ideal for even a town location. We need it to go even colder and less humid.

I dont think nebula are possible at all from my location, I pointed the 25mm eyepiece on that star on the left of orions belt and got nothing at all ?

[Adamchiv]

31 minutes ago, D4N said:

Yes the setting circles are mostly decorative on the eq2, I've never managed to get them to work properly on mine.

I found my Rigel quickfinder made it much easier to find things, you can work out how big the circle is and get an idea where to place your pointer stars to get things in the field of view.

Whats that then? sounds like something I could do with

[Stu]

1 minute ago, Adamchiv said:

The 25mm wasnt wide enough? is it that big in a dark sky? thats pretty cool. I think when I do get it, it will be a tiny little oval

Yep, it's big!!

[Adamchiv]

Just now, Stu said:

Yep, it's big!!

Boy am I looking forward to my first trip to a dark sky site. Although I wont expect that clarity unless I take the james webb telescope

[Charic]

Adamchiv.........What scope do you have?

 

[Adamchiv]

8 minutes ago, Charic said:

Adamchiv.........What scope do you have?

 

Skywatcher 130m on an eq2 mount. Looking to upgrade next year to a 10inch dobsonion or 8 inch eq 5 for travelling to dark sites

[Charic]

Size, weight and many other factors to contend with, but every scope that is properly cooled and collimated will show more from a darker site,  and your eyes are better adapted too, as there's no man -made light pollution to contend with.
Its as if I own two scopes, such is the difference  with the views from the garden/darker site. Do remember a dark site is man-made pollution free. The Star light alone (here)  will impress /dazzle you, and on a Moonless night, shadows are created.

[Mognet]

1 hour ago, Adamchiv said:

I dont think nebula are possible at all from my location, I pointed the 25mm eyepiece on that star on the left of orions belt and got nothing at all ?

Try the middle star of Orions sword, that's where the Orion Nebula is. It's the brightest and easiest to find. Looks a bit like a cloud across the stars to start with until you start to see the shape

By the star on the left side of Orions belt are the flame and horsehead nebulas. They are challenging even in good skies. I've not seen those yet

[MBJ]

Look for the great square of pegasus.....a near perfect large square of four stars tilted over.....the far left star which is alpheratz.....count 2 stars in a line to the left of alpheratz and then 2 stars up and that is where andromeda is.

[Stu]

1 hour ago, MBJ said:

Look for the great square of pegasus.....a near perfect large square of four stars tilted over.....the far left star which is alpheratz.....count 2 stars in a line to the left of alpheratz and then 2 stars up and that is where andromeda is.

That's the method I use, option 2 on this map. The hop from Cassiopeia I've always found more difficult but it works for some.

[Stu]

4 hours ago, Adamchiv said:

Skywatcher 130m on an eq2 mount. Looking to upgrade next year to a 10inch dobsonion or 8 inch eq 5 for travelling to dark sites

Just remember that the bigger the scope, the longer the focal length which means a more detailed view but you won't fit it all in the field of view.

A 10" scope will give nice, close up views but a widefield frac will show the full extent of the Galaxy under a dark sky with your eyes well adapted.

[D4N]

6 hours ago, Adamchiv said:

Whats that then? sounds like something I could do with

You use it instead of the red dot finder that came with the scope.  The stock red dot finders are one of the most frustrating devices ever invented.  I started out with the same setup as you and that little thing drove me to distraction, typically it ends up in a position where you have to stand on your head to get in line with it and then you find the battery has died as it has inexplicably remained on even though it is turned off (dew?).

[Stu]

8 hours ago, Stu said:

Just remember that the bigger the scope, the longer the focal length which means a more detailed view but you won't fit it all in the field of view.

A 10" scope will give nice, close up views but a widefield frac will show the full extent of the Galaxy under a dark sky with your eyes well adapted.

This shows you an example. The inner circle is a 12" scope, 1600mm focal length with a 25mm/50 degree afov eyepiece giving 0.8 degrees of sky. The outer circle is a 4" f7.4 frac with a 40mm TMB Paragon eyepiece giving 3.68 degrees. Under a very dark sky, the widefield view is lovely!

A 10" scope with a widefield eyepiece, say a 30mm, 82 degree ES would give the middle circle, around 2 degrees.

[Dave In Vermont]

And this was put out this last few days on finding M31:

Use Pegasus to Find Andromeda Galaxy.pdf

You may find it helpful, along with all the other pointers here, or at least get you a tour of everything other than Andromeda in the general area.

You'll find it - unless it fell into the biggest black-hole ever dreamed of,

Dave

[Adamchiv]

I agree the widefield view looks perfect and I do wish I had a wider field, I have been contemplating getting the skywatcher 80ed on a heq 5 mount, but thought more aperture was better which is why I was also considering the big dobsonians. Im a teeny bit confused about these circles on this image, the reason being I can understand that a 40mm eyepiece is going to give you a wider field, but how much narrower would that 40mm be on a 10-12" newtonion reflector? Im kind of confused about whether I should go for the quality of a refractor, or the good value for money large aperture of a reflector