Inspired to shoot the moon

[Fozzie]

Afternoon everybody...

I’ve been Inspired…

Not absolutely, you must understand, not in the way of serious astrophotography, with EQ mounts, guide cams, CCD’s, filter wheels, processing software amongst others, and finally huge amounts of time, passion and talent to produce all those mesmerising images of DSO’s we see on here often…

I’ve been inspired to take reasonably nice moon and solar photography, using A DSLR. 

The DSLR is something my good lady and I have been mussing about for a couple of years, she would like to take more of an interest in portrait photography too, so as a compromise in a non astro modded DSLR we have decided on the cannon eos 750d..

I'd just like some advice on, well I guess will it work/is it plausible and am I on the right track.. etc.

So the shopping list we have is

• Cannon EOS750D
• Adapter and T Ring
• 75-300mm EF IS lens (to follow)

This is what I have (assuming the good lady needs nothing else to take photos of my ugly mug, why on earth she'd want too?)

• 102mm F11
• 72mm F6 ED
• Skytee2 mount/Mg alloy mount and ball head.
• Herschel wedge

The software I can use.. (free Downloads)

• PiPP
• Registax/AS
• ImPPG
• Photo editors etc that come with the cannon.

Here are my initial thoughts, on the process of actually taking the RAW or (avi’s) images

• Shoot individual, manually aligning the scope as we go.. Essentially using my illuminated recital EP in either the 72mm or 102mm to align and shoot on the skytee, using a remote to trigger the camera.

Or

• Shoot a short video, the 750d does 1080p/30fs (better with the 72mmED as I think the image would drift out on the F11)

However this is where I would like to ask for help on the following topics.

• Will the above set up work for moon/sun photography, will it be worth the time/effort (could always down grade to a 1300d)
• Focus – is this a suck it and see using the live view screen on the camera or is there a better way?
• No of shots per image – is there a recommended minimum for stacking for it to be beneficial
• Video or single shots – which is best using the above set up.  Does the 750D support the correct image crop mode for 1:1?

I’m not too worried about the processing stage yet.. I’m quite computer savvy so I’m willing to give it a go… and when I fail miserably eat humble pie and ask on here..

So I thought I’d throw this out there..

Any comments, observations, redirections or rationalisation of expectations are greatly welcome

Many thanks in advance

Fozzie

[xtreemchaos]

hi Fozzie, your setup will work well and its deff worth it, a eq tracking mount would make life easyer but you can still get cracking results without. I take stills with my dslr, 60 to 120 frames and stax with regi, I shoot in jpeg because I'm lazy and in my shots I get no advantage from shooting raw and it makes processing much easyer.  goodluck ,charl. ps if you click my flicker link, most on that page is jpeg shot.  clear skys.

[billyharris72]

I sometimes get the urge to shoot the Moon too, but not in the way you're talking about! Photographically speaking, that sounds like a very manageable setup. I'm very much starting out myself on this road, but my observations so far:

* I'd be inclined to go down the video route, and use Registax or Autostakkert! for stacking - although the resolution will be less than with shooting stills, the stacking makes a huge difference to image clarity.

* For stacking, the number of shots sort of depends on the approach. For DSO type stacking, you are literally just placing one image on top of the other, and even a small number of images yields and improvement. I've tried this approach with planetary and lunar shots and the results are horrible. For the approach planetary stacking uses it sets a lot of markers and then I think uses bits of the images. Realistically, I think you'd want a couple of thousand frames for that approach (hence video!).

* For focus, it's tricky at first, but the live view screen is probably the easiest way to go (zoom in a couple of steps and take your time getting it right and you'll be fine).

* As for which scope, start with the shorter one, but you should be able to shoot video while moving the scope to keep the moon near the centre of the field with the F11. That's a good FL for the Moon as you should still get the whole disk, but a really good size. I use an HEQ5 and I'm really glad I got it, but this shouldn't be a deal breaker or anywhere near it.

Hope this is some use.

Billy.

[jackobeen]

hi fozzie,have you seen the nikon p900 moon vids on YouTube.quite impressive,without telescope

[Alien 13]

The Canon 750D is a good choice the flip out screen makes live view focusing easy and accurate, the built in wifi also allows remote shooting from your PC using EOS utils or a Canon phone app. The rest of your list is also sound, the Canon bundled software is very good but another free piece of image editing software is Affinity Photo and although its a beta I am finding it very capable. 

Alan

[wornish]

Just a word of caution.  You mention using your DSLR for solar shots.  I am no expert and never even tried doing it but, be very careful what you do and remember to use a suitable filter before pointing the DSLR at the Sun.  Also never look through the viewfinder and always use the live view.

Otherwise you have a good starting set up and plan.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

1 hour ago, Fozzie said:

However this is where I would like to ask for help on the following topics.

• Will the above set up work for moon/sun photography, will it be worth the time/effort (could always down grade to a 1300d)
• Focus – is this a suck it and see using the live view screen on the camera or is there a better way?
• No of shots per image – is there a recommended minimum for stacking for it to be beneficial
• Video or single shots – which is best using the above set up.  Does the 750D support the correct image crop mode for 1:1?

Hi there Fozzie,

I had a similar wave of inspiration earlier this year. A clear moonless night followed by a non-work day is normally too much to ask for here in the UK. So I sourced myself a planetary/Lunar/Solar imaging set up. I shoot with an old Canon 550D in Movie crop mode at 60fps. That way I get great detail from loads of frames in a short period of time but the field of view is very small.

To answer your questions:

Will the set up work:

- Yes, It should do and it is worth the effort. It is a great way to enjoy a whole other side of astronomy. I don;t think you need the latest EOS though. You could save some money and buy and earlier camera second hand.

Focus:

- You should have enough back focus to achieve the correct focus. If not you can always by an extension tube (not that expensive). You should also think about a focus mask.

No. shots per image:

The more the better! Poor seeing means many shots will be unusable so take as big a sample as possible. As I mentioned I take movies small 640x480 frames at 60fps but you could take live view movies at 30fps which have a wider FoV.

Video or single shots:

Well this could be contentious but I would say video is better. Single shots obviously show the full field at maximal resolution but you will be limited in the number of shots and you may not overcome poor seeing because of this. However, smaller field movies will require you to mastic multiple frames to make your image. Overall, I would say that both methods have their plusses and minuses so try both methods and see which one works for you. 

HTH

Dan 

[Fozzie]

Gents, Thanks for al the replies, muchly appreciated..

2 hours ago, xtreemchaos said:

hi Fozzie, your setup will work well and its deff worth it, a eq tracking mount would make life easyer but you can still get cracking results without. I take stills with my dslr, 60 to 120 frames and stax with regi, I shoot in jpeg because I'm lazy and in my shots I get no advantage from shooting raw and it makes processing much easyer.  goodluck ,charl. ps if you click my flicker link, most on that page is jpeg shot.  clear skys.

Thanks Charl, although I'm not blaming you entirely.. you excellent photo's have pushed me along quite nicely.. also you do seem to post a lot of them so I'm assuming being a lunar photographer gives you 1st refusal on clear skys?

2 hours ago, billyharris72 said:

I sometimes get the urge to shoot the Moon too, but not in the way you're talking about! Photographically speaking, that sounds like a very manageable setup. I'm very much starting out myself on this road, but my observations so far:

* I'd be inclined to go down the video route, and use Registax or Autostakkert! for stacking - although the resolution will be less than with shooting stills, the stacking makes a huge difference to image clarity.

* For stacking, the number of shots sort of depends on the approach. For DSO type stacking, you are literally just placing one image on top of the other, and even a small number of images yields and improvement. I've tried this approach with planetary and lunar shots and the results are horrible. For the approach planetary stacking uses it sets a lot of markers and then I think uses bits of the images. Realistically, I think you'd want a couple of thousand frames for that approach (hence video!).

* For focus, it's tricky at first, but the live view screen is probably the easiest way to go (zoom in a couple of steps and take your time getting it right and you'll be fine).

* As for which scope, start with the shorter one, but you should be able to shoot video while moving the scope to keep the moon near the centre of the field with the F11. That's a good FL for the Moon as you should still get the whole disk, but a really good size. I use an HEQ5 and I'm really glad I got it, but this shouldn't be a deal breaker or anywhere near it.

Hope this is some use.

Billy.

Noted Billy, I will probably start of single shot then try video.. I think the 750D with the F11 scope is not a bad match, certainly on FoV basis..  Plus I get a flat image from the F11, which the Fc in the 72mm could be a issue... maybe? 

1 hour ago, wornish said:

Just a word of caution.  You mention using your DSLR for solar shots.  I am no expert and never even tried doing it but, be very careful what you do and remember to use a suitable filter before pointing the DSLR at the Sun.  Also never look through the viewfinder and always use the live view.

Otherwise you have a good starting set up and plan.

 

Thanks for the warning, I'm an avid visual sun/cloud guy so would only use a camera behind the wedge and other filters.. one question on the view finder... even if it's behind the wedge is it unsafe?..

Note to self... Will need a filter for the 72mm ed as a manual guide scope though..

47 minutes ago, spaceman_spiff said:

Hi there Fozzie,

I had a similar wave of inspiration earlier this year. A clear moonless night followed by a non-work day is normally too much to ask for here in the UK. So I sourced myself a planetary/Lunar/Solar imaging set up. I shoot with an old Canon 550D in Movie crop mode at 60fps. That way I get great detail from loads of frames in a short period of time but the field of view is very small.

To answer your questions:

Will the set up work:

- Yes, It should do and it is worth the effort. It is a great way to enjoy a whole other side of astronomy. I don;t think you need the latest EOS though. You could save some money and buy and earlier camera second hand.

Focus:

- You should have enough back focus to achieve the correct focus. If not you can always by an extension tube (not that expensive). You should also think about a focus mask.

No. shots per image:

The more the better! Poor seeing means many shots will be unusable so take as big a sample as possible. As I mentioned I take movies small 640x480 frames at 60fps but you could take live view movies at 30fps which have a wider FoV.

Video or single shots:

Well this could be contentious but I would say video is better. Single shots obviously show the full field at maximal resolution but you will be limited in the number of shots and you may not overcome poor seeing because of this. However, smaller field movies will require you to mastic multiple frames to make your image. Overall, I would say that both methods have their plusses and minuses so try both methods and see which one works for you. 

HTH

Dan 

Thanks Dan, great response..

That's two votes for video.. I assumed that single shots stacked would be easier to deal with for some reason... guess i'll find

As for the EOS, I thought about the 700D or second hand but then if the main purpose is the Wife's interest it made sense to get one as a package that comes with IS lens and is up to date... Heck if she doesn't take to photography then its win win all around as the camera will be ALLLLL MIIINE!!!

 

thanks again everybody..

Fozzie

 

[billyharris72]

6 minutes ago, Fozzie said:

Thanks for the warning, I'm an avid visual sun/cloud guy so would only use a camera behind the wedge and other filters.. one question on the view finder... even if it's behind the wedge is it unsafe?..

If the camera is getting all of it's light through a wedge and suitable filter (as would an eyepiece for visual viewing) then you'll be fine. Just follow the same precautions as you would for visual.

[johnfosteruk]

Hey Fozzie from another Fozzie

That setup will be perfect for Lunar (see FOV for the 102 below) making good use of the sensor area with a bit of wiggle to allow for super moons/alignment error etc. With Solar, your FOV is similar but you may find focuser travel problems with the wedge (you'll be alright if you can focus the camera with a diagonal) 

If not @paulastro sent me a link to this adapter with lens included to pull the focus point back when I was toying with the idea of a wedge. 

From my experience using a Nikon with similar sensor dimensions I'd say shoot stills, not 1080p and shoot RAW, the difference in quality is significant, and size as the 1080p isn't using the whole sensor (unless it's different with Canon)

Regarding seeing with single shots, depending on the lunar phase/illumination I shoot anywhere between 1/80s and 1/500s, even faster sometimes so it's definitely an advantage over the effective 1/30s of the video mode. Also because you're shooting raw you have more dynamic range to play with in the frames. I've mucked up before and set it to the wrong exposure, thought I'd have nothing but once I up the gain/gamma in Pipp while preprocessing it's all been there.

I align the camera in the focuser so it'll drift left to right, place it on the left hand side and take stills while it drifts. with a second or 2 between shots to let the vibrations settle I can shoot a good 15-25 frames before needing to pull it back to the left hand side with the slow motion controls.

I shoot between 100-300 frames and then it's ready to process. Your stacking software of choice won't like the fact the frames aren't aligned but you can use Pipp to crop and align the frames.

I used to use the live view zoom function to help me focus but I can do it in the viewfinder by eye now, the live view kills your battery. You could use Backyard EOS or similar as your viewfinder if these approaches don't work for you. 

The processing will take a little longer if you shoot stills but it'll be worth it.

good luck, hope this helps

J

Clear Skies

 

 

[spaceman_spiff]

16 minutes ago, Fozzie said:

Thanks Dan, great response..

That's two votes for video.. I assumed that single shots stacked would be easier to deal with for some reason... guess i'll find

As for the EOS, I thought about the 700D or second hand but then if the main purpose is the Wife's interest it made sense to get one as a package that comes with IS lens and is up to date... Heck if she doesn't take to photography then its win win all around as the camera will be ALLLLL MIIINE!!!

thanks again everybody..

Fozzie

 

No worries Fozzie,

I did try single shots a couple of times - good for time lapse stuff (transits etc) but I started getting worried that the shutter noise would annoy the neighbours! Fair enough regarding the choice of camera. I don't know 100% about the 1:1 pixel resolution for the 750D but if the other EOS models are anything to go by then 5x live view will work well (it is very close to 1:1 meaning no downsampling and maximum resolution). Obviously xtreemchaos is the man to talk to about single shot work clearly it works well for him! I was thinking that if you can put the camera in slow continuous burst mode (not using the mechanical shutter), you could collect enough reframes to put into Registax. That would remove the need to make mosaics. I may try this myself tbh!

Dan 

[Fozzie]

1 hour ago, spaceman_spiff said:

I was thinking that if you can put the camera in slow continuous burst mode (not using the mechanical shutter), you could collect enough reframes to put into Registax. That would remove the need to make mosaics. I may try this myself tbh!

Dan 

That sounds like a great idea.. Just researched it a bit, and with a remote shutter you can get roughly 4 frames a second... If you do try this, please report back.

[Alien 13]

I am a big fan of single shot RAWs with the use of the mirror lock function I then pick the best two or three and manually stack in PS, I have tried video but was not impressed the stacking software always seems to destroy edge details although this method is a must on Planets.

Alan 

[johnfosteruk]

1 minute ago, Alien 13 said:

I am a big fan of single shot RAWs with the use of the mirror lock function

Gotta get me a Canon for Lunar/Solar, the Nikon doesn't have mirror lock. If it did I'd be able to shoot about 5fps at any shutter speed for about 15 in a row before buffering without having to allow vibration to settle

Another reason why your camera choice is a good one Fozzie.

[spaceman_spiff]

13 minutes ago, Alien 13 said:

stacking software always seems to destroy edge details

Didn't know that...next clear night I'll try a direct comparison between the two methods.

[Fozzie]

1 hour ago, johnfosteruk said:

 

Regarding seeing with single shots, depending on the lunar phase/illumination I shoot anywhere between 1/80s and 1/500s, even faster sometimes so it's definitely an advantage over the effective 1/30s of the video mode. Also because you're shooting raw you have more dynamic range to play with in the frames. I've mucked up before and set it to the wrong exposure, thought I'd have nothing but once I up the gain/gamma in Pipp while preprocessing it's all been there.

I align the camera in the focuser so it'll drift left to right, place it on the left hand side and take stills while it drifts. with a second or 2 between shots to let the vibrations settle I can shoot a good 15-25 frames before needing to pull it back to the left hand side with the slow motion controls.

I shoot between 100-300 frames and then it's ready to process. Your stacking software of choice won't like the fact the frames aren't aligned but you can use Pipp to crop and align the frames.

 

That's great advice, much appreciated Fozzie  (rather self serving that!)

I'd checked out the FOV for the F11, nice match I thought..

How long does it take to shoot 100 frames, singularly??

ta

Fozzie

[johnfosteruk]

29 minutes ago, Fozzie said:

much appreciated Fozzie  (rather self serving that!)

Welcome to the Fozzie appreciation society 

29 minutes ago, Fozzie said:

How long does it take to shoot 100 frames, singularly??

With a second or so to settle down the vibrations (not that they're very evident in the viewfinder/display but just to make sure) between frames around 2 mins, a lot more than the 3 seconds or so to capture 100 frames of video but still not a very time consuming enterprise. You could shoot 3600 frames of video in that time which is heaps more but with the compression & lower resolution, you gain nothing in my (limited) experience.

As I said I've found (with my camera at least) it worth the extra effort in terms of the quality of the final image.

If you wanted a compromise between the speed/ease of video and quality I think Charl's DSLR (not sure which model) shoots 2K video which will leave you (in your 102) with a higher resolution result than 1080p, but I think you still have the compression thing happening.

HTH

[Fozzie]

Soooo to return to this thread, as I thought it might be useful at some stage, to anybody else venturing down this route, you know, to have it all under one roof so to speak. I thought I’d a quick update of where I am..

The camera and adapters have been purchased, as in another thread, I opted for the Canon 750d.  This is my first ever DSLR and well “heck” they are quite a complicated bit of electronics! 

I’ve agonised over read and write speeds of memory cards.. and I’m not even going to ask what the difference is between SDHD and SDXC other than price, but I’ve used the adage that you get what you pay for and spent on a 64gb SDXC with 95mb/s read and write speed, class 10 blah blah blah… it should work fine..

I have adapters ready to go, both purchased form Unci FLO.

We have down loaded and installed the following

• PiPP
• Registax 6
• ImPPG
• Digital Photo Pro 4 (canon Freebee)
• Microsoft ICE

I have also downloaded and reviewed the tutorials on PiPP and Registax 6, both seem to be very straight forward

PiPP is here

https://sites.google.com/site/astropipp/example-uasge/example5

Registax 6 is here

http://www.astronomie.be/registax/previewv6-0.html

I’ve looked at ImPPG, and quite frankly I do not understand what im seeing or reading, in essence I think it makes slightly “smudged” images a bit sharper..  here’s a random wiki page on which I base my conclusion (first few lines only)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richardson–Lucy_deconvolution

In truth, im hoping not to use ImPPG, and that the efforts of PiPP and Registax 6 will be enough to give me the level of achievement I’m after..

So next step is learning the camera, both the manual functions and the focusing on a telescope.  Once I’ve established roughly how these interfaces work by trial and error on the red light beacon over the other side of the valley, I will look at the remote operating of the camera using the canon apps for the tablet.

Here are some interesting features that the camera has, as I will essentially be manually guiding and taking exposures, they might help.

• The camera has built in Wifi and a few apps to let you control ISO, Exposure, and Aperture.
• The camera has a silent burst mode, reduces shutter noise by (I think) keeping the shutter out of the way.  I think this could help with the accumulation of frames.
• The camera appears to have a CA compensation/removal inbuilt setting.
•  The camera also has numerous noise reduction settings, although research leads me to believe I’d be better turning these off.. especially at the ISO numbers required to shoot the moon.

So I think, im ready to collect some data, and start to get going…

HOWEVER.. The timing of all this is, well, “unfortunate”   as the next reasonable shot for the moon in the early evening is mid December!  TYPICAL!!

So for now I will be just practicing with the set up and ensuring that when I do throw some photons at the sensor, I should at least not be struggling to gain focus, and have a handle on manual tracking, using the duel scope set up, and illuminated finder..

Looking forward to this, and I feel more than ready to get that camera going under some moon lit skys..

I’ll post some pictures of the rig, at some point!

Thanks

Fozzie

[Alien 13]

The one bit of software you didn't mention is the Canon EOS utility, this lets you not only control the camera remotely but also allows live view operation.

Alan

[xtreemchaos]

I know your after shooting the moon Fozzie, but while its outa range you could have a go at a few DS targets whats good with a unmodded cameras like the Pleiades, hyades, orion nebula ect, there well placed from about 10 pm onwards in the south/east.  charl.

[johnfosteruk]

What they said Fozzie, plus, the silent burst mode will be a great asset as you say for the accumulation of frames and also, I've a suspicion the CA compensation mode will be detrimental as it may well confuse your stacking software (noise reduction on my Nikon does) it may also save the compensated image as a JPG, unless that's what you'll be shooting anyhow. I may be wrong though - one for your testing phase. 

It'll be great to see what you have to say about the 750 - I'm considering a Canon for dedicated astro stuff and keeping the Nikon purely for terrestrial work, so keep the updates coming.

Can't wait to see photos of the rig.

and Good luck.

 

Oh and what about a daytime shot or too over the next week?

 

[Fozzie]

13 hours ago, Alien 13 said:

The one bit of software you didn't mention is the Canon EOS utility, this lets you not only control the camera remotely but also allows live view operation.

Alan

Quite right, I have missed that of the list, I have installed it as part of the canon suit of software that came with the camera.. However as I decided against installing this on the laptop (work spec and issue = BASIC) I have it on a desk top in the lounge.. so with out a tracking mount I might struggle using it (sounds like good exercise running between the two though!).   I'm thinking at best is the App, at worst is the wifi remote shutter..

12 hours ago, xtreemchaos said:

I know your after shooting the moon Fozzie, but while its outa range you could have a go at a few DS targets whats good with a unmodded cameras like the Pleiades, hyades, orion nebula ect, there well placed from about 10 pm onwards in the south/east.  charl.

Thanks Charl, It's odd you mention the Pleiades, the thought had already crossed my mind as I'd like to grab some nebulosity, and I could use the 200p (I have an excellent baader Q barlow and the nose piece should work a charm for pulling the focus). 

Question though, if I may, on quick fast subs, does PiPP and Rgistax compensate for Field curvature on a AZ mount? I do have access to an EQ2 but don't fancy it's chances.. 

I think really learning the camera might be more beneficial at the moment, as I guess the "processing" side is only as good as the data you give it..  Could be time well spent..

7 hours ago, johnfosteruk said:

What they said Fozzie, plus, the silent burst mode will be a great asset as you say for the accumulation of frames and also, I've a suspicion the CA compensation mode will be detrimental as it may well confuse your stacking software (noise reduction on my Nikon does) it may also save the compensated image as a JPG, unless that's what you'll be shooting anyhow. I may be wrong though - one for your testing phase. 

It'll be great to see what you have to say about the 750 - I'm considering a Canon for dedicated astro stuff and keeping the Nikon purely for terrestrial work, so keep the updates coming.

Can't wait to see photos of the rig.

and Good luck.

 

Oh and what about a daytime shot or too over the next week?

 

Thanks John, the intent I think is to shot RAW or CR2 as canon label them (sounds like a footballer?!) I'll do some reading around the CA compensation mode, but for now i'll try to shoot with all these items off.. I'm assuming the CA compensation is more aimed at "Kit" lenses that are a bit fast and maybe not as higher quality as the F11 lens or the ED lense in the 72mm.

I thought about a daytime practice, makes a lot of sense as, well it's light for one thing, however work is 7-7 most days so getting the required time is difficult despite an understanding office.  and by the time the weekend comes I think the moon is practically "new".. Just a case of bad timing I think.. 

Once I get the grips with the camera i'll get a little write up done, and I think i'll be having a test set up tonight, so will post a few pictures of where I am.

Thanks for the continued support gents.

Fozzie

[Fozzie]

Hold the phone...... a nice sized sunspot on the limb...   That's an interesting development!!!!!

[xtreemchaos]

you should be ok with the Pleiades with 15 to 20 sec expo with a az mount, ive had 10sec with a normal camera tripod, high iso like 1600 , you shouldnt get too much noise at 1600,  if you put them through PIPP first then regi thay should line up a treat.  sunspot you say ,darn 100% curse cloud here, great spotting mate. heres a image I got a few weeks ago with my unmodded 1200d, you can still catch a bit of neb without a modded cam.  charl.

Pleiades 30x20sec iso 800 + 10x30. iso 1600

 

[Fozzie]

That's a great photo charl, Im showing a bit of potential clear for sat/sunday evening, so if I've not manage to grab any other data, might just need to give this ago..

Ta

Fozzie