M31 or...??

[Major]

Evening folks.

Could someone tell me please, what would Andromeda Galaxy look like in 4 inch scope? Was looking for it now, found it, but it was very dim, could barely make it up. I am sure I have seen a galaxy, I know that Moon doesn't  help with seeing, but would it be so faint that it was barely noticeable?

Had a look at Stellarium and my charts and am confused now... Could it be Andromeda or more likely M32 or M110?


Cheers

[rockystar]

m32 is very small and m110 is very faint. I'm sure you've posted this before, but what is your LP like? My NELM at home is about 4.2 and I can see it easily (along with the other two, but it took many, many attempts, they are not easy from home). Even though it was faint, was it fairly large? They say it will fill your FOV and beyond (but only at a very dark site - I've not managed to get it to fill the eyepiece)

[brantuk]

It'll look like a faint but very definite oval smudge with a slightly brighter core. Try it in binoculars first so you can confirm what you're looking at and where it is - then it will be a little more obvious in your scope and you'll know what you're pointing at.

 

[Davesellars]

What eyepiece were you using?  As above the darkness really will come in to play with faint extended objects like M31.  Apart from the core which is very bright the rest is extremely faint.  You need to be able to see the Milky Way as a benchmark for seeing anything further of M31.  M32 is quite small and will look pretty much like a bright compact globular cluster.  Forget about M110 unless you can see the Milky Way but otherwise 4" is sufficient to see all of these.

[Uranium235]

M31 as described above is a definite smudge, and maybe on a good (dark) night you can make out an inner dust lane. Guess it depends on your local level of LP as well.

[Charic]

......can't show you what it looks like in a 4" scope, but its  still very faint even in an 8" scope from my garden,  so don't be too alarmed that the 4" is not giving its best yet?
In order to see M31, you really need dark adapted eyes to see the target, and a dark site, no man-made light pollution,  achieve this and you may see M31.
As for my  8" at a dark site, M31 fills my view, the difference is down to the conditions, not just the scope, but a larger aperture  can help some situations!

This image shows how I  locate M31, using the  Stars of Cassiopeia as my guide......

 

 

[orion25]

What you saw was most likely M31. One of my scopes is a 127mm Mak-Cass and I navigate through Bortle 5 LP conditions, and on a night of good seeing I can easily see the core, hints of dust lane.  I have some trouble parsing out M32 (very small and close to M31), but little trouble with M110 (small, faint smudge a bit away from M31). Things will be a bit fainter in a 4-inch than my 127mm, but probably not  incredibly so. 

Happy galaxy hunting!

Reggie

[Major]

Thank you all very much for quick responses.

When I saw it first time I used 25mm. Regarding light pollution, Moon was quite bright at over 50% and I have some human lights reaching my yard - three street lights and neighbour that never seems to turn her lights off and doesn't use curtains.

Regarding size, it was maybe 1/5th, maybe 1/4th of the diameter of 25mm EP. Then I changed it to 4mm and couldn't see anything, so  popped 10mm in - then I could just see it about 2/3 of the diameter, but it was very faint.

Another observation was done just few minutes ago, Moon hid away and neighbour used dimmer light, so I could see much more - in fact so much that I got lost! Can't say 'my' galaxy was much brighter, but still saw fuzzy light in the middle and some dust. Sadly I can't make out even a hint of Milky Way... Looks like I may have underestimated LP on the outskirts of my village.


Cheers.

Edit - similar question... Is anyone able to tell what M43 looks like? I saw charts and checked Stellarium, but can't make out this particular shape of coma...

[Aaron F Johnson]

Thrue my 90mak in dark sky's m31 and m110 are definable at 56x and at 92x m32 can be isolated. I can see the whole galaxy using my 114mm f/3.9 fl450mm at 14x with hints of dust lanes and structure on the better seeing nights. The Triangulum galaxy nearby shows a prominent swirl but some to little structure otherwise and much dimmer on a good seeing night thrue the 114mm.

[M Astronomy]

I can just about make out M31 with my unaided eye, though I do live in an area with minimal LP. With a pair of binoculars, the central bulge is clear and through my 3 inch telescope, on quite a dark night, I can just about manage to see a few trails at the side.

My advice is to get some binoculars and travel to a place with darker skies on a night without the moon. Powerful binoculars will reveal quite a lot and are easy to transport to different locations. 

Hope this helps!

[leo82]

I also have bad lp but not entering my garden. Try some kind cloth over your head and scope to try and eliminate any stray light.

I can locate m31 but viewing it I find using a 25mm ep and averted vision is the best I can do. As it's a faint target upping the mag will only make it dimmer.

hope this helps in any kind of way.

[ronin]

M31 is a faint smudge. In a 4" scope you will likely not get it all in, to get it all at once you need something like 20x magnification or less, 15x would be better. The idea of magnify, magnify, magnify is completely wrong for M31 yet so many try it.

Even at low magnification you will not see glowing bands and arm against the stellar background. Go find an old photo of what Edwin Hubble saw when he was useing a 100" scope. Then you start to get an idea, even in 100" there was not a lot of detail visibly.

I advise using binoculars not a scope, it is still a smudge but you sort of get it all in one go and so it is more apparent. But only just. It is an objevt that once you have found it then it is "easy" to find in subsequent attempts.

[Aaron F Johnson]

I magnify m31 to 92x and can make out m32 at that mag. m110 can be seen as it's own entity in the mist at 56x, all with a 3 1/2" mak and see detail. I use a 4 1/2 inch fast scope for low mags and see the whole of m31 at 14x no smudge in sight nothing compared to my z12 but detail as I have described none the less. I think the reason to magnify m31 if you don't know why people do it might be because it can be examined in further detail even with small scopes provided you are at a dark site and are dark adapted. I completed my messier/110 first go round with a questar 90 over 40yrs ago at dark sites over a single season, if all your seeing is a smudge for m31 through a 4" scope you should hit a true dark site and take another look. And in the end one can't say he's seen m31, m32 and m110 if he already said he only seen a smudge...

The reasoning behind using two small scopes fast and slow is because the fast newt gives a nice bright widefield view but stacking glass to achieve higher mags dims that view. The slow 90mak easily reaches high mags with just an eyepiece so is the better small scope for high mag but itself can't even achieve real low mags. This really helps take full advantage of all the available light when using small scopes by not stacking glass and utilizing every photon when working with dso...

[LukeSkywatcher]

As others have said it looks like a faint fuzzy oblong shape with slight brightening towards the middle. Its really nothing to write home about. Bigger scopes and darker skies are needed to make out any kind of detail. I can spot it with the naked eye from where i live. The thrill of observing it is knowing its size and just how close it is to us.

[Timebandit]

Hello. I have a 120mm(bit over 4")  Apo and have seen m31 as a hazey smudge of light with a slightly brighter centre fairly easily numerous times on a not particularly dark site, you also have m32 , m110 in close proximity. But these are more difficult to see with limited aperture, but on the correct seeing conditions are possible. I did have the dob out and the refractor out one night and got m31 in the refractor but could not see m32 , m110. But about 30min later the dob was ready set up and got m31, m32, m110 in the 14 inch dob. So aperture really did seem the answer on this occasion, the seeing conditions may of improved from the time the refractor was put away and the dob set up?, but I don't think so. But IMO it was the much larger aperture that allowed the faintness of the m31m32m110 to be seen over the much smaller aperture. Also if the moon is out then finding faint fuzzys can be almost impossible .

But to get the best out of your scope especially of smaller aperture then a dark site can really help you get the best contrast between faint fuzzys and dark background and therefore allow your aperture to see things that just cannot be seen in light polluted areas. You may therefore need to take a bit of a drive if you really want to get into galaxy hunting, As to really see faint fuzzys then the darker the site the more you will see with your scope and any scope. I hope the above helps☺

[Major]

When I finally found it, it was thrilling indeed, it's the first galaxy I've ever seen after all .

A lot of good info here, thank you all very much!.

Looks like I will have to pack the scope and go to a darker place. Within about 10-15 minutes riding there is at least few spots that are much less polluted, might be worth giving it a shot. Only thing I'd need to figure out is how to pack and unpack gear quickly on the motorcycle, but am motivated so it won't be a problem .

Also very good idea about binos. When they were my one and only observing aid, I felt fairly limited in many aspects, but now could think of some moments they would be useful. But this brings another question - what magnification should I look for? Go for typical astro binoculars and get ie Celestron Skymaster 20x80? Or something smaller? I know they weight a little bit, but could always use them with monopod or tripod.


Cheers

 

[LukeSkywatcher]

3 minutes ago, Major said:

When I finally found it, it was thrilling indeed, it's the first galaxy I've ever seen after all .

A lot of good info here, thank you all very much!.

Looks like I will have to pack the scope and go to a darker place. Within about 10-15 minutes riding there is at least few spots that are much less polluted, might be worth giving it a shot. Only thing I'd need to figure out is how to pack and unpack gear quickly on the motorcycle, but am motivated so it won't be a problem .

Also very good idea about binos. When they were my one and only observing aid, I felt fairly limited in many aspects, but now could think of some moments they would be useful. But this brings another question - what magnification should I look for? Go for typical astro binoculars and get ie Celestron Skymaster 20x80? Or something smaller? I know they weight a little bit, but could always use them with monopod or tripod.


Cheers

 

Ive seen galaxies with my 20x90 bins and they all still appear as faint fuzzies. I love my 20x90's but overall my 10x50's get used nearly every time i go out observing. I like to sit back after using the scope and take a nice relaxed wander around the universe with the 10x50's.

[Peco4321]

This a couple of sec exposure through 150p reflector. Just a smudge to the eye but such a lovely thing to see. You'll know when you have it  

 

[leo82]

I also started with bins (10x50) and still use them now. Some targets are just better with bins e.g. The Pleiades. I also have a cheap Jessops photo tripod which I attach them to. They're not heavy but I have the shakes especially if it's cold!

in response to transporting equipment do you have a top box or saddle bags fitted on your bike? Or an army style rucksack? You could just take a pair of bins with you.

you will be shocked when you first go to a dark site though. I learnt the sky from my back garden learning the brightest of the constellations. I then went to a darker site and it took a while to find the familiar constellations because there were stars everywhere!

[LukeSkywatcher]

8 minutes ago, leo82 said:

I also started with bins (10x50) and still use them now. Some targets are just better with bins e.g. The Pleiades. I also have a cheap Jessops photo tripod which I attach them to. They're not heavy but I have the shakes especially if it's cold!

in response to transporting equipment do you have a top box or saddle bags fitted on your bike? Or an army style rucksack? You could just take a pair of bins with you.

you will be shocked when you first go to a dark site though. I learnt the sky from my back garden learning the brightest of the constellations. I then went to a darker site and it took a while to find the familiar constellations because there were stars everywhere!

My 1st time at a dark site, i couldnt even locate Orion as there were just so many stars visible. Ive known Orion since i was 6 yrs old (43 now nearly).

[Charic]

..same with Cassiopeia, viewed overhead from my garden its clearly visible, but half  mile away ,  with no direct street lighting, its absorbed into the Milky way, just thousands of Stars.

[rockystar]

1 hour ago, Peco4321 said:

This a couple of sec exposure through 150p reflector. Just a smudge to the eye but such a lovely thing to see. You'll know when you have it  

 

m32 in there too, down a bit and half way to the edge of the image, looks like a fuzzy orange star? Gives a good indication of where to look for it - and shows that it probably wasn't what the OP was looking at

[LukeSkywatcher]

15 hours ago, Charic said:

......can't show you what it looks like in a 4" scope, but its  still very faint even in an 8" scope from my garden,  so don't be too alarmed that the 4" is not giving its best yet?
In order to see M31, you really need dark adapted eyes to see the target, and a dark site, no man-made light pollution,  achieve this and you may see M31.
As for my  8" at a dark site, M31 fills my view, the difference is down to the conditions, not just the scope, but a larger aperture  can help some situations!

This image shows how I  locate M31, using the  Stars of Cassiopeia as my guide......

 

 

I found it using the same method. Now i dont need to because i know where it is and can eyeball it. IIRC, the above image shows M31 pretty much as it appears to my naked eyes.

[Major]

I found it exactly as Charic has pictured it. After few attempts I know more or less where it's located, just need few seconds to find it.

Leo82 - I have top box, tank bag and army style rucksack . Won't be a problem to take binos with me, was thinking more about telescope. However I think it would have to wait till I get a car as it's just too big and too fragile to safely transport it on the bike. The way back from shop was simple enough, but scope was in original packaging so I just strapped it to the back seat and top box and it was all good, but wouldn't risk it now...

Now you all made me quite eager to visit some darker sites, can only imagine it must look amazing!

Looking at photo uploaded here and few others, also reading what was said here I am more and more certain that I saw Andromeda. Thank you all for helping me solving this little mystery .

So to summarize, now I need bigger scope, binos, better EPs, cat B and a car.... that escalated quickly .

[Aaron F Johnson]

I have decided to leave SGL and this is my last post, after 50 years in amateur astronomy I came here with the intent to learn AP and have gathered enough information now to succeed. I enjoyed my time here but kind of shocking and sad to me that so many of you aren't achieving the level of observation I have known and enjoyed for half a century and for this reason I sadly must depart. Clear/Sky's to all and best of luck and good fortune in this hobby, Indeed.