Strangely silent

[ian_bird]

1 hour ago, ollypenrice said:

This is a predominantly UK forum and the UK is plagued by light pollution. The only high powered weapon against LP is narrowband and the only high powered way to do narrowband is with a mono camera. At the moment that probably means CCD but change is in the air.

Mind you, I haven't been back to the UK for a while (I've 'gone native!!!' It might be Monique's cooking...) so maybe it is also the weather.

Olly

I agree wholeheartedly. I have just moved to Narrowband imaging - and I love it. It has turned my imaging around here in the UK. I used to hate it - I only did technical testing so I could be sure my rig would work if I went somewhere with dark skies with it. But now I do serious (for me) imaging in the UK - something I would never have thought possible!

Moniques's cooking? Now you are just being mean! ;-)

Cheers

ian

 

[laser_jock99]

Limited time is my main reason for not posting many coments- If you get a 'like' off me you're lucky!

[ollypenrice]

10 hours ago, gorann said:

 

By the way Olly,

your latest comment on this thread confused me. I thought I needed a CCD camera to do proper AP and now you seem to suggest that it is only needed in light polluted British skies. So I can go on with my DSLR in the dark Swedish forest? (I recently invested in a CCD and a bunch of filters, and struggle to get on friendly terms with it, but I will not give up)

No, my point is to say that in LP the DSLR approach is particularly frustrating and demoralizing because you have so few means of protecting yourself against it.  I'll stand by this. A CCD is always a better deep sky camera than a DSLR but from a dark site and in fast optics they converge considerably.

That a DSLR is cheaper and can also do daytime photography is very obviously correct. I'm emphasizing the down side and asking if that side might not be the source of a degree of demoralization - if there is one.(There may or may not be but that's one of the things under discussion here.) If a total beginner appears on here asking how to start doing DS imaging there is almost an orthodoxy which says, 'Start with a DSLR.' Now folks are perfectly at liberty to suggest this but it should not be an orthodoxy because a case can be made against it. I think there might be more of a buzz for the beginner if they started with a CCD becuse they'd have more success.  As I've said many times, Ian King advised me to go straight in with mono CCD. I found this to be great advice, I repeat it consistently and I know that lots of our guests felt DSLR was a blind alley for them.

Olly

 

[astroman001]

Thanks to Olly for pointing this  out. It found it quite noticeable for me recently. I am an infrequent 'poster' on the Deep Sky imaging section, I am mainly a Planetary imager and I must say that the comments and responses on the Planetary imaging forum feel more supportive.

Maybe because people don't know my name here?? Anyway, I just enjoy sharing my work, if someone comments that's a bonus but it is a form of encouragement if people take the time to make an observation.

regards

Peter

[neil phillips]

Completely agree Peter People should be encouraged. The like button is a bit lazy in my opinion. The only problem is constructive criticism. Or attempts to help others improve, can often be seen in a negative way for a whole host of reasons. When in a lot of cases. I think people really want recognition for there hard work. So its catch 22.

What might be a great new idea is some separate threads for those that want constructive input. to post on. I know there are threads similar to this already. But I am thinking more of, show off your images with constructive input Type of thread.

And see if it takes off, or works, it may not. I suspect most don't want constructive advice, and will just post on the normal thread. For not doing so means they really have to accept they may not be doing as well as they think they are.  Or just plain don't care. 

The advanced members may find it difficult to say great shot, or great capture. Which there eyes may be at odds with. Of course we can all be charitable. And sometimes maybe that's the best approach. But often I would like to speak my mind. Only for the reason of helping others improve there art so to speak. And for no other reason. Of course proving this is next to impossible and it really can come across as a know it all. Or somekind of attempt to belittle someones present skill. Alienating that member big time. On many occasions I have seen members come to the defence of a poster that may have had constructive criticism attached. With comments like. Looks ok to me. Or I prefer it just like that actually. As a attempt to belittle the constructive advice, almost like it has no merit and is meaningless ego tripping or something. All of this might be a different issue to the one you started. But I am giving reasons possibly as to why it may be happening. Glad you brought it up actually Peter. As not interacting with other members is really not a very nice thing to do. Yesterdays newbie. could be tomorrows top imager. Especially if the balance between self criticism and constructive help from more advanced members could somehow be achieved. Its a can of worms that most would rather avoid I feel. But you are to be congratulated for bringing this up and speaking your mind. I fully agree with the reasons you have done so. The solution is more problematic for all the reasons outlined I feel. Just noticed Chris mention its good to ask advice. But sadly even that doesn't always work. Yes in most occasions, but not all.  I have seen it myself. Thorny issues indeed

 

[MartinB]

I joined SGL as a total novice in Dec 2005.  It was in it's early days then.  There was a small group of people imaging usually with DSLRs or modded web cams.  We all seemed to be on the bottom rung of the learning ladder.  We pulled each other along as a small group.  SGL expanded briskly but the numbers posting imagers remained relatively small, we knew each other and saw how we were progressing.  At one point the deep sky imaging board seemed to be the focal point of SGL.  The forum has now grown massively as has the number of deep sky imagers many of whom are extremely capable and are using pretty high end kit.  People haven't got less friendly but it has become less personal.  There are fewer replies to posts than there used to be.  At one time if someone posted an image it would be at the top of the board for a week.  Now you can find an image disappearing off the page after a day!

I'm sorry to say I have been much less active on SGL than in the past but whenever I get my act together I like to go through the board.  The only images I don't comment on are those where no appreciable effort seems to have been made e.g "captured after 8 beers and a curry so rough polar alignment, 5x5 second subs".  

Don't stop posting Max, I'm sure you'll get lost of replies now!!

[johnrt]

The whole constructive criticism thing is a minefield, so easy for it to be taken the wrong way and not as intended.

I remember not so long ago there was a big backlash against the clique of experienced imagers that would recommend a decent size equatorial mount, fast ota and a mono ccd for a minimum set up for DSO imaging - they were called over their expensive kit that not everyone can afford, and snobbishness, but reasonable constructive advice for a no hassle set up in my opinion.

I find it is very difficult to offer some constructive criticism unless you already have a little familiarity with the poster, so sometimes perhaps it is best to say nothing?

[Robp]

I post occasionally when I really like an image. There are a few users on the forum that I view all the images they post but even then I don't comment on every one.

Some images I see things that are not quite right but I would feel bad to post negatively (even constructively) about something that someone has put a great amount of effort in to producing. You never really now how they are going to take it and I wouldn't want to discourage someone from continuing in the hobby. Likewise if I were to go into loads of different posts and say 'nice image, well done!' I don't feel it adds much. Also I feel that a lot of times people post a really nice constructive feedback post on improvements, then the original poster doesn't return, doesn't reprocess, doesn't add more data to the image, the thread just ends.

I had a lot more success with a series of threads I have done called 'My quest to image the Orion nebula'. I started off with an incomplete image and then steadily posted progress over the Winter.

With each improvement I was given advice and then used that in the next update, all in the same thread. I enjoyed it so much I did a part two the next year, using my last image as the starting point. Again I got some nice feedback and improved the image over the Winter. I cant wait to start a third part of the series once Orion comes round again.

 

[gorann]

8 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

No, my point is to say that in LP the DSLR approach is particularly frustrating and demoralizing because you have so few means of protecting yourself against it.  I'll stand by this. A CCD is always a better deep sky camera than a DSLR but from a dark site and in fast optics they converge considerably.

That a DSLR is cheaper and can also do daytime photography is very obviously correct. I'm emphasizing the down side and asking if that side might not be the source of a degree of demoralization - if there is one.(There may or may not be but that's one of the things under discussion here.) If a total beginner appears on here asking how to start doing DS imaging there is almost an orthodoxy which says, 'Start with a DSLR.' Now folks are perfectly at liberty to suggest this but it should not be an orthodoxy because a case can be made against it. I think there might be more of a buzz for the beginner if they started with a CCD becuse they'd have more success.  As I've said many times, Ian King advised me to go straight in with mono CCD. I found this to be great advice, I repeat it consistently and I know that lots of our guests felt DSLR was a blind alley for them.

Olly

 

I was not all serious and as I said in my comment,  I will not give up, and hopefully I will one day be one of the proponents of CCD (or CMOS if that takes over). Obviously it is more versatile and still more sensitive. However, I am not sure that CCD is the way to start for many people. There are so many things to learn about scopes, mounts, tracking, processing etc, that if you at least know how the camera works it is initially one less hurdle.

Sorry for having sidetracked this thread......

[RichLD]

I find that posting a gallery image allows me to share my efforts without feeling disappointed if I don't get a response.

[neil phillips]

I think everyone is different some will, and some will not get disappointed perhaps. Its all just psychology. Most posters post up for the feel good factor I think. Not only are most posters protective of there work, at any level. Some members are protective of other members work. if a productive convo is trying to be started. Its naïve for posters to believe some critique may not happen at some point. But you would be surprised how naïve a lot of posters can be. I know i said this before. But the question is almost being avoided ?

 Like the feel good factor is the only reason worth posting for. Which for the most part, is exactly how it is. I can feel those that think like this starting to fume already at the mere suggestion lol. And I aint kidding. Wish I was. Those that can take humble pie. And post to learn from others discussion about there images ( a smaller crowd I think ) When it isn't a direct question thread started by them. Often I have seen them flourish as imagers, as the months go by. In a tiny percentage long standing forum friendships can ensue. With them later teaching me about something. Now that's productive. Jealousy, ego, and over protectiveness, is pretty much a basic instinct. If that floats peoples boat. Good on em. each to there own.

There really is a lot of psychology involved in all of this. Way too much to have any safe ground other than nice shot. in most cases.its just a human thing. We are all protective too on some level. I know I am. But I will say this. If I agree with some kind of critique. (I don't always) Then often I will think about that, because I know they are right on reflection. It will dig in eventually. And its here that humble pie has to kick in with a certain amount of a sense of humour. Its not always easy for people to feel like that, For various reasons. So the status quo remains the same generally. Year after year.

I find it hard to lie. Sometimes I even want to. Because I can tell someone is actually really cool. So I say nothing. Or risk trying to be productive again. where for the most part. Unless a thread is started.  Lets be honest folks, its not really wanted. In my case its not ignoring some posts. But perhaps I find it hard to lie, and find it harder and harder to interact in a positive way. For all these reasons. Just saying nice shot out of charity, is a bit of a cop out really. Although its seen by many as being nice. Which to a degree it is. But making someone believe they are doing great. When all it would really take is a few minor changes, isn't as nice as it might first seem. When someone does become brutally honest like a family member for example or who ever. It may come as a bit of shock. When such said person thinks. They all thought it was great on SGL

How honest and nice is that ?

I understand we are all at different levels. But when I see someone could progress. Sometimes wish I could help that process without all the rubbish baggage  inbetween.

But I try sometimes, only to wish I hadn't. Unless there was somekind of major shift in thinking. I think I will respond when I have something good to say. But even trying to create a balance like saying good scale there. But its a bit noisy. After a while it will be seen as snobbery. Basically its no win situation. We should never be honest where it puts someone off.

Buts its a shame. we cant all help each other, without ego and paranoia somehow always finding its way into the thinking. And I know it exists. I have been put off helping to the point I don't want to anymore. Unless its a thread started for such reason. Humans are fragile things

[alexbb]

6 minutes ago, neil phillips said:

Humans are fragile things

Natural selection ftw

On the other hand, most of the members are amateur astronomers and nobody should expect high performance from them. Not even at the job someone should tell you that you're rubbish, but to try to help you solve whatever issue you have at the moment. Even though you're supposed to be qualified, you might still need help and some directions to follow. Still, you might get also upset.

[neil phillips]

I don't expect high performance from anyone. Though I do assume, if they have spent many hundreds of pounds and hours trying to get and process such images, that they want to do good for themselves. Is the point ? If they don't. that's great, but secretly I will bet most do

Sometimes I am sure they might not even be aware how good they can actually get, with a few interactions and friendly discussions. I would never say to someone they are rubbish. The point is to be helpful not off putting ?

To say to someone they are rubbish is spiteful. I have a long standing discussion with a member on here. where we can say to each other no that's not worked very well. Or sometimes, you nailed that one mate. Its that honesty that actually has helped both of us.

So I know this kind of thinking can be productive. Despite anyone's belief that it can not. I have often been told certain things about my images perhaps, that I would rather not hear. We are all human. But if I agree with them ( sometimes I do not btw ) Then where do you go.

Back to the drawing board is the only place to go. Or whats the point in having a honest rapport with a astro buddy.

I will also add, not sure if your suggesting that I think I do not need any help ? If so, Couldn't be further from the truth. I often need a lot of help. Infact if it hadn't been for some very kind imagers taking there time to help me in the past that I wouldn't have progressed any further. Not sure about your points ?

[alexbb]

10 minutes ago, neil phillips said:

To say to someone they are rubbish is spiteful.

Though, it happens and some say it, maybe with other words. "You'll be fired if you're not doing what we expect from you, and you won't be missed." About the same meaning for me.
What I was willing to say, and maybe failed, was that this is a hobby for the most of us and not our job. At your job you may not perform enough and you can be told that, either you try more, either you should try something else. Here, it's not the case.

12 minutes ago, neil phillips said:

Back to the drawing board is the only place to go. Or whats the point in having a honest rapport with a astro buddy.

The issue raised here was that not enough feedback was given. I'm happy with any kind of feedback. Not receiving feedback feels like a more polite way to be told that you don't belong here, or one doesn't even know what to tell you without offending.

[RayD]

Maximidius (I so wished that was your real name) this is a really good, well delivered and very interesting thread to read, thanks for having the willingness and tactful manner to bring it up in a way that didn't just end up with you being shot down in flames, which I suspect you may have expected to some degree.

I like the fact that there are so many opinions, all of which are of course correct and valid, with no one opinion having any more validity than the next.  This is just part of what makes us individuals, and retain the right to offer opinions, so long as we don't naturally assume that ours is the only one that's valid.

I personally am pretty new to AP, and haven't yet posted any images which I feel I would be happy to be open to critique, as I personally see flaws in them, so would perhaps be a little disgruntled at 10 people telling me something I already know.  I accept that if I do post images in an open forum, of course they would be open to critique, and rightly so, why post them otherwise unless with specific instruction that you don't want feedback, good or bad?  If you only want good feedback and "well done" posts, then email to your family, I'm sure they'll be more gentle with their comments (this is a general comment by the way, with the "you" being et al, and not you personally).

With the above said, when I do post I don't expect everyone to know what I'm posting for, whether it's feedback, just praise, total silence as it's just for show, or any other possible reason.  Therefore, I'm happy to note the techs for the image, what processing was done to date, and any comments relating to what type of feedback I'm looking for to help me improve my techniques, whether that be capture or processing.  For example I may ask about length of subs, degree of applied saturation or curves in the image, or actually more likely I will probably just ask for any comments which people feel would help me improve generally, accepting that this is unlikely to be all positive ones.  However, for people to know that I am happy to take on board the possibly constructively negative comments, I feel I would need to let them know that in the post.  The problem comes when a poster asks for feedback and then has multiple views, but none is forthcoming, which I guess could be a little disheartening.  I don't know how often this happens, but if it does, I hope following this thread that this would be lessened, but only time will tell.

At the moment I generally do comment when I have something positive to say, as I am not yet really in a position to offer critique, but possibly would do in the future when I know my comments are correct. 

Anyway, I'm thoroughly enjoying reading the comments and reasoning for leaving or not leaving comments, and note that everyone is right for their own reasons.

Many thanks for the thread.

[neil phillips]

Agreed.  But I am giving reasons why I have sometimes found it difficult to reply to posts. And possibly others may have the same problem. So its part of the discussion.

 I can not speak for them. Only they will know why they do that. But I certainly  do understand your point that saying nothing is counter productive, and just generally not very nice. It doesn't feel the right thing to do in any friendly situation. I have even felt guilty at some points, Because I don't know how to say something productive. So have said nothing instead. When I know I should say something, as it is the friendly thing to do. I try to get around this problem by sharing knowledge. But for all the reasons I just outlined. It doesn't always seem to be a solution that sits well with many. And some off them didn't even post the image lol

I know for a fact that constructive discussion can happen. I have seen it happen. And have seen members progress with this process in action very well indeed. We all need to eat humble pie from time to time. Me. You. anyone really. And perhaps to try and lay the foundation where it is not always  seen as somekind of attempt to be a snob. Or somekind of hidden reason to bolster the helpers self esteem in some way ? And it doesn't take long for that old chestnut to be assumed. Like people think they have some kind of magical insight into another persons mind. And are prepared to assume the worst in all cases.  Because they perhaps find it difficult to believe that anyone would actually get any joy in seeing others progress. And may also enjoy the process of talking to others about a subject they love so much. In many cases I have actually PMd a person. To help.

Funnily enough  there has been times where I reached out to another member asking for help, because I could see they had learned things I hadn't mastered. Only to get no help at all. When I have spent years trying to be friendly and helpful to others. And I am sure some would say publicly, if I asked them. But I will not. I don't have to prove this to anyone. If people want to think the worst then its for a reason of there own. But there are reasons why some posts get ignored. And Ones that I probably haven't touched on.

[Pippy]

To post is to learn, even if their's no return

 

[orion58]

Being new to this site I have noted that basically all of the posts/replies have been exceedingly polite - very refreshing.  Many good points have been made in this (very interesting) thread so I'll just add my 2 cents.  I hesitate to offer suggestions unless its clear to me that the poster is asking for them.  Even then it is hard to do and I find myself trying to word it correctly so as not to offend.  Because SL has hundreds and hundreds of members each with different personalities/quirks its impossible to know for sure if the suggestions will be received in the spirit with which they were given or if the poster will take offense... That is what sometimes keeps me from responding. 

That being said I really think it is important to help as much as we can because, as we all know, this can be a frustrating hobby at times.  When I first started (about 6 years ago) if I hadn't received guidance from some of the "older guys/gals" I would have hung it up years ago.  You can watch as many tutorials as you like but nothing helps more than one on one advice from those that have "been there, done that".

So, I guess my suggestion for those that really want advice, would be to make it clear in their original post.  It would be my guess that there are a whole bunch of people on this forum that would be glad to help - but they don't want to offend anyone either.

Great forum you have here.

[neil phillips]

Good comments coming. Its refreshing to see these thoughts and feelings being posted honestly. But if anyone wants advice from me about deepsky don't bother I'm rubbish lol

That's not a joke, most will know I actually am rubbish Maybe at some point I hope to get some good negative comments if I try some deepsky. With a view to helping me. As god knows I will need it.

I am not kidding negative can be positive. If its meant and taken with friendship. Which it would be by me. I would love to play a joke after saying that.If I try some deepsky and post. And say

what do you mean the stars are not round ? what do you mean the core is blown out ? are you kidding mate lol

[toxic]

this is a very good instance on how a post can move along in such a short time 4 page's in 4 days.

i will comment on a post /image if i have any valid input and most of the times i do .

i will offer help when i can .

when i post an image i will put all the details i can in the post and ask for comments and critique  so that it helps me in  the rather large learning curve.

the help i have had on this forum in (beginner and DSI ) have always been positive .